Help Needed - Mob Modeling

[Windcatcher]

Some of us on IRC are preparing to hold a closed beta of the client we're developing, but we need help with mob models. To be legal we have to do completely without any SOE models, and that means we need replacements. So, if anyone is inclined, here's a chance where you can really help the community.

We're asking if people can devote their time and talent to donate some 3D models to the project. Just about anything can do, but our highest priorities are skeletons, roaming animals (anything you like), and any monster types you're inclined to make. We're also short on female player models, but in the grand scheme of things we don't need them right away. You don't have to worry about rigging to skeletons or animation -- our only method of importing them is through Anim8or, so unless you're using that to build your models any rigging work will be lost. Anim8or can import only certain common model types, like .3ds (which would be best).

If anyone wants to help it would be appreciated, as long as you understand that your work is for the good of the community and has to be freely usable. For poly count I'll just pull a number out of the air as I'm not a 3D expert: 1000-1500 polys would be a good ballpark, but use your own discretion. Whatever we use has to be scalable so players can go on raids, so we can't be making their graphics cards melt :P

Wind

[GeorgeS]

Wind, count me in. I am good at NPC modeling and texturing. I've completed my quest editor, and have time for modeling. I use Truespace 7.1, and with next month's 7.5 update, it will be even better. 3DS is fine. All I make is free anyway as you know... :)


I'm rarely on IRC, but let me know details...
GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

We have a test server running and are preparing to port some existing db work over to it for some existing OpenZone zones, but we don't have models for a lot of creatures. I have a full set of humanoid animations and it's not all that hard to rig up a model in Anim8or, but I'm a pretty poor modeler and worse texturer :P Basically we need people to tackle the artistry part and the idea is that I would try to rig what I can in Anim8or. I've also started on a series of tutorials for the next version of OpenZone that will explain how to make creature models, but it's a pretty involved process and documenting it all in the form of tutorials will take a little while. In the end, though, the central problem is that we need people who are good modelers and artists and who are willing to make models.

Since we have to import work into Anim8or the scale isn't all that important as we can rescale as we need to. For humanoid models, it would be best if they were in standard modeling form...I don't know what it's called, but basically where their arms and legs are splayed apart. That way I can rig them to my existing humanoid figure without too much fuss and the 70 or so animations I've already made should work. For non-humanoid models, I'll just have to rig them one at a time.

If you want to try your hand at rigging in Anim8or (painful though it can be), then the only rules of thumb I can think of are that the model face outward along the Z axis and that Y be up (and therefore X points to the mob's left). Because of the way Anim8or handles bone thicknesses, OpenZone does a 1/10 conversion when exporting creatures, so if you want a creature to be 5 units tall ingame then it should be 50 units tall in Anim8or. There are specific naming conventions that bones, objects, and animations need to have, all of which are documented in OpenZone 7.6, but that's not a big deal as I can rename as I need to after you submit something.

I'm not a modeling expert by any means, so if you really wanted me to answer some other question feel free to ask. I'll drop onto IRC tonight as well to see if I can help clear up what we need.

OpenZone 7.6 has all of the models I've made to date, which should give you an idea of the general orientation that I would need to fit a humanoid model to, as well as proper naming conventions. For a non-humanoid model, I have no existing template, so it's all new territory.

[GeorgeS]

I started modeling last sunday, and progress will be incremental of course, so a little at a time. The froglok model was done sunday and the head is giving me some difficulty. I will let you know via PM where you can download the work. Once the frog's textured then it's off to other ones like the bat, snake, spider, and then a few humanoid ones. I'm looking at my model repository now and looking for stuff that will work. I'll also keep the poly count under 1000 tris.

II bought another 20" display (for dual display) sunday so I have these side by side so modeling one one panel and references on another are possible. Looks like I had to go this way so I have more pro-end tools to work with. I'll show some screen captures this week

GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

WOW! I hope you didn't think you had to spend money on this, though those sound like great toys to have anyway -- I hope the wife/gf understood (grin). I cant wait to see what you come up with.

I've written four new OpenZone tutorials for mob modeling with Anim8or, but when I finished them I realized that the process was way too tedious for my liking (I usually take some shortcuts like modifying the .AN8 files directly, but they won't do for a tutorial). I've decided to make some enhancements to my software to try to make things easier:

1. Expand OpenZone's .AN8 import ability so it can handle grouped objects (partially done, can load groups as long as they aren't rotated)

2. Expand the client so it will also look for objects and creatures in separate .XWF files in the zone's .XWA archive (done; if the .XWA contains objects.xwf and/or creatures.xwf, it will load them as well).

3. Add force-loading capability to the client when dealing with .XWA files (done, but untested; requires an upgrade to OpenZone first).

4. Change OpenZone's export to .XWA so it puts objects in objects.xwf and creatures in creatures.xwf rather than putting everything in a single .xwf file.

5. Add .AN8 export capability to OpenZone. This is good to have in general but part of it is also necessary for step #6.

6. Add tools to OpenZone that tackle some of the more tedious parts of mob modeling, such as copying a model, removing all variants, copying an object to make a variant, etc. These need step #5 above since they'll involve modifying Anim8or files.

7. Rework the tutorials to use the new OpenZone features.

This will probably take a few weeks, but the results will be worth it. I can use whatever you make without all this, but these changes will make it easier for everyone else to take all of the needed steps to make mob models usable. If you want to see the models I've already made, they come with OpenZone 7.6 in the /library/creatures folder (.AN8 files are Anim8or files).

[GeorgeS]

No worries, after I sold the 98 LS1 vette, I had a few bucks to spare. Selling it made her happy and I could buy all sorts of stuff - that made me happy. I actually found her using the pc more now!

I also bought a touchtablet 2 years ago, but found it a bit clumsy for details. I am still learning the art of texturing (if there's such a thing).



When I get a prototype model ready, you can then let me know what changes need to be made. I understand humanoid models - 2 arms and 2 legs spread apart is standard. Whether you need them triangulated or not is simple for me. I can triangulate as the last step. Non humanoid models are one of many that I am working on. snakes, and bats for example, latter have wings which flap and snakes wiggle around. I guess the animation should be easy for those.



GeorgeS

[GeorgeS]

So far so good. Spectre's, and snakes are textured and done. I tried working on the frog and had real difficulty finishing the head. So far I am modeling these with some difficulty, but texturing is a real challenge. I found texturing organics pretty hard and was wondering what your work flow is.


GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

I usually use CorelDraw for the basics, just so I have the right things in the right places and with the right colors, and then I use Paint Shop Pro for touch-up work. Unfortunately the best I can get with this method is what I included with OpenZone. Using my method works much better for things like clothing, where I can layer things and build clothing textures that reflect the cloth layers that make them up.

[GeorgeS]

I'll be looking forward to the help file.

So far, here's my progress:

1) 4 Froglok's done some with weapons (not sure if you need them equipped...)
2) 4 Snake models - done
3) 2 Spectre models - done, still being textured
4) 5 Rats fully textured - done
5) 3 Bat models - not done yet
6) 12 spiders several different ones made all textured - done
7) several Beetles - currently doing these
8) Lion/Tigers in queue
9) Human models (still thinking how to best do these)
etc..

Still would need to know a few things

Where do you prefer the axis center of each model? (Feet level, body level)

Size - I gues I can scale these to a given metric

Quads? - I box model using quads only. No one uses tris anymore, except for game output since most games only accept tris, or at least triangulate. What's your thought?

Textures must be in .png .bmp? in x^2 X y^2 I resume?
What's the largest texture size you can use(512x512)?

What about the export format? (I can do .3ds, .obj, maya/wavefront, .cob, .x, etc..)

As you can see there are many work flow things I would need first so when I create the exports, the models are almost ready for you out fo the 'box'


GeorgeS

[Scorpious2k]

So far, here's my progress:

1) 4 Froglok's done some with weapons (not sure if you need them equipped...)
2) 4 Snake models - done
3) 2 Spectre models - done, still being textured
4) 5 Rats fully textured - done
5) 3 Bat models - not done yet
6) 12 spiders several different ones made all textured - done
7) several Beetles - currently doing these
8) Lion/Tigers in queue
9) Human models (still thinking how to best do these)
etc..


WOW!!! Awesome!!!!!

Looking forward to seeing all this :)

[Windcatcher]

Wow, that's amazing!

I don't need mobs carrying weapons, as the rigging process will place phantom bones at the hands, the shield point on the arm, etc. The client looks for bones with special names to figure out where to place things like weapons and shields and how to orient them.

The axis center should be at feet level, though it isn't all that critical. When I rig it to the skeletons the skeleton base will be the real point of origin. Quads are okay, but bear in mind that OpenZone will convert everything to triangles when it exports. The file format requires triangles. As for export format, it has to be something that Anim8or can import. Other than that, I don't care which format you use. Likewise, size isn't all *that* important as I can rescale in Anim8or. I think my half-elf model is around 55 units tall, if you need a rough scale (OpenZone scales everything down by a factor of ten when exporting creatures, so 55 units in Anim8or will become 5.5 units in-game -- the reason for this is because of the way Anim8or handles bone thicknesses).

Textures need to be a power of 2 on each side. I'd prefer that they not get too big so as to not use too much texture memory when used in-game. I don't know if you're using a single texture for entire models or multiple textures, but I'm much more concerned about total size in bytes of all textures than the size of individual textures. I'd definitely recommend not going over 512x512 in any case as I want the client to run on older hardware. Also, textures need to be able to be loaded by Anim8or. I know it can't handle 32-bit .BMP textures, for instance, though it loads 24-bit just fine. I prefer .BMP or .TGA in any case, but I don't know if Anim8or can load .TGA (I've only tested it with .BMP files).

One thing to bear in mind is how the client handles variants. For instance, if you look at my goblin model, it has four variants, but the important thing to take note of is that they all use the exact same mesh -- only the textures differ. The client requires this if you want to have a creature race have several variants (body types). The Sony client is the same way, by the way: if you use a different mesh then it has to have an entirely different race ID (such as how Kunark goblins differ from old-world goblins).

Another thing that I should mention involves texture filenames. They should follow the same general naming convention as live textures use: for instance, a lion texture might be something like lioch0101.bmp, where the first three letters denote the model, the next two denote a body part, and the last four denote player faces (only used on special player models), texture variants, pieces of body parts, etc. My creature textures that come with OpenZone should serve as examples, and somewhere in its help file is an entry that describes what each of the numbers mean. It's not a catastrophe if you don't use this naming convention, but it means that I'll have to rename each texture and do it myself (and if you're using a single texture for the entire model that's fine, too, but you *have* to use separate textures for separate variants or it won't work).

[GeorgeS]

Here's a link to show my progress. I made a few more so far.
http://66.159.225.58/eqemu/oz/work_to_date.html


I'm working on a few more lower (very low) poly bats and then it's off
to make beetles, lizardmen, all sorts of winged creatures etc..
Some of these take a few hours, others like the specs took me a whole weekend to model.

I think I'm pretty late in the game to rename the textures as it's pretty hard to just get this far. My goals are to provide a very comprehensive monster set to you, and then you can go from there.

I predict that by sunday nite, I will send you as many as I have.

Enjoy the pictures.
GeorgeS

[Scorpious2k]

AWESOME!!!
<begins to drool>

[Windcatcher]

GREAT! One thing I should point out is that it would be a good idea if hands were modeled clenched, so it would look natural if they're holding a weapon. The client doesn't support different arm meshes based on whether a creature is holding something or not (the live client can't do that either). Otherwise, everything looks terrific.

My player models (human, wood elf, dark elf) come with a full set of robed textures, and the mind flayer has some of its own as well. Robed models are VERY hard to rig, but they're possible (the most important rule is that polygons between the legs must NEVER have vertices in the center but must always have them at one or the other leg instead). Of all the textures I made with CorelDraw, I think the robed ones came out the best.

For the spectres, it's a tough call as to whether or not to remove the weapons. If you leave them it's ok, but they'll never be able to carry anything else. Maybe there should be two variants, one with a scythe and one without?

Another thing I'd like to mention is that we are in no way limited to eqlive's creature races or race ID's. SimpleClient has its own XML file that links the three-character race mnemonic (e.g. ORC) to a race ID. Aside from mnemonics having to be three letters, we have complete freedom here.

[GeorgeS]

Ok, I kept as many of those requirements as possible. I checked Blender's website, and decided to DL a copy. I also finished round 1 of the modeling.

So there are around 90 models made, and all are textured. You can do as you want with them now. I think you will need to rename the textured to your convention. My modeling workflow is not condusive to the afformentioned naming however, but you can do this in blender manually. If there are any that will not work, let me know the issues and I can work around them if possible. These all load into my 3D game engine nicely, so I know they're ok there. In fact I may very likely make a demo 3D previewer...

Poly's were kept low but I decided to go slightly higher with a few key models. Most modern PC's should handle EQ2 quality models, but mine are around a median of 750 tris. Some have a single sub-D, others not. You can SubD any - it's your call.

I'm sending you the link to the models as these are just for you.

GeorgeS

[GeorgeS]

..I forgot to mention that the scythes are named "weapon" if I recall correctly and like most of the models are comprised of parts so removing the scythe is easy.


GeorgeS

[GeorgeS]

Finished modeling the female NPC's. Made a bunch with different textures. These were a learning curve, but next are the male NPC's.
Aren't those females purdy?


http://66.159.225.58/eqemu/oz/work_to_date.html

GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

Great work! I just managed to rig the first of your models, the orc. I've had to modify the mesh in Anim8or to make it fit my skeleton (basically splaying the legs apart, and rotating the hands 90 degrees so they match the way I attach weapons), but the animations are working well. I've also been working on a pop-up window in OpenZone 7.7 that will take a lot of the tedium out of some of the necessary tasks when making models, and while I'm not done yet I've made good progress. When OpenZone has the necessary features I should make much better progress in rigging the rest of the models.

[Windcatcher]

A small update...

I finished the one orc model (the blue-gray one) but I'm going to hold off on the other four for now. The reason is that all five types have different meshes, and I don't want to have to have five different race types/mnemonics for all of them. It will mean that I'll have to expand the .XWF format and everything that deals with it, from OpenZone all the way through to the client and the loader DLL. So I'm going to move on to another of your model types where the meshes are shared. Next up: spectres...

[GeorgeS]

That's excellent they're working well. I have made many more and todate about 100 or more. I'm exporting them for you tonight and the link is in the PM.

I've redone the froglok model slightly, and the mino-man. Lizardmen and wolves are done. Also the male/female NPC's are done as well

Current work to date -


http://66.159.225.58/eqemu/oz/work_to_date.html


GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

Getting them rigged into Anim8or has been a real challenge, and so far I only have one orc done and the spectres partially done. However, I've been doing more than that: I've been adding a host of features to OpenZone 7.7 that will handle a lot of the more tedious and dodgy aspects of mob modeling, and when it's done it should make modeling overall a lot more efficient. There's also a new tutorial in the built-in help that covers mob modeling, though when these features are finished I'll have to rewrite large portions of it to reflect all the simplifications that will be in effect. The past six weeks have been really difficult for RL reasons, but though I've been silent on the forums I haven't been gone by any stretch.

[CrabClaw]

Nice work! Cant wait for a test server. :)

[GeorgeS]

That's great you're getting these to animate - cannot wait to see them live in a game...

I've not modelled anymore since the second update, but then I made over a hundred models already for you :)

I heard from someone else about those RL issues. I understand well...
Good to see you woking on this.

GeorgeS

[Ghost Fire]

whats the max poly count? Nevermind 1000 - 1500.

[Runeblade]

Hey you guys still taking in custom models? Would be fun to wip one up and maybe see it ingame.

I've Textured/rigged before but we just need to make the model and you'll do the rigging? I've switched modelling programs so im relearning real quick with new software.

[Windcatcher]

Absolutely we're taking in models for SimpleClient, but there's a real lag in terms of time before you'll see them ingame, as so far I'm the only one doing the rigging...

If you supply models already rigged, I need them to be rigged in Anim8or as that is the only model format that OpenZone understands. If you want to just supply a model, it can be in any format that I can import into Anim8or, such as .3DS.

[Runeblade]

Hey, this probably isnt the best place to ask a quick question but I currently have a thread up in the support so I didnt want to start another already.

The question is- Does the weapons being put into te gequip8 file need to be textured to be seen in game? So far I haven't used any textured weapons and none of them are showing up. A quick example: I just did another sword and was invisible then I did a plain cube and was invisible. Both with coordinates 0,0,0 in the middle of the cube and on the hilt.

Now when there dropped on the ground there still invisible but I to pick them up I have to click on different area's, so its proving that the model is their on the ground in correct form but I just cannot see the model.

Models im going to use as Npcs though are working fine.
Ex: *Open source, not mine*
http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w137/sk8er754/?action=view&current=EQ000411.jpg
http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w137/sk8er754/?action=view&current=EQ000409.jpg
I'll import them as specific untargeted zone objects like those above and see what I get.

[Runeblade]

Well I've been at it since the last time I replied. From 1a.m. to 11:49am ive been fiddling with importing and exporting models at my fastest pace but I still havent figured out this program. The most I ever got most of the time was just 1 part of the weapon, namely the hilt. Once though with a weapon in just 1 part I got the full model in, which was very sweet at the time, but never had one part of any model a different color then white.

I figured that maybe if I put in a weapon that had more then one piece( a weapon that had 2 or more models overlapping to make the whole model) it would only load 1 piece. It seemed the case when I attached the elf model to my short sword and sure enough, half of the elf model was showng floating above me ( It has 2 parts to the model).

Along witht that I found that ordinary material coloring doesn't even show ur model. Its just invisible but u can still pick up the model off the ground. But if i apply a texture from say a bitmap image, then i can see my model, but only in a white coloring.

Basically i've tried everything, models with and without texture mapping, models with just 1 and more then 1 part, adjusting the 0,0,0 origin point around, etc.

So idk. Getting static Npcs to show and hav texture on has worked fine since the start. But exporting objects in the gequip8 file has been a real pain. Idk just looking for some comments, maybe a walkthrough to show what a model needs to be exported out of OZ and some screenies of some weapons working ingame with or without texture?

Sorry for such a long post lol

[Scorpious2k]

Basically i've tried everything, models with and without texture mapping, models with just 1 and more then 1 part, adjusting the 0,0,0 origin point around, etc.

So idk. Getting static Npcs to show and hav texture on has worked fine since the start. But exporting objects in the gequip8 file has been a real pain. Idk just looking for some comments, maybe a walkthrough to show what a model needs to be exported out of OZ and some screenies of some weapons working ingame with or without texture?

Sorry for such a long post lol

1) you have to texture everything

2) all textures have to be .BMP files and sized in powers of 2 - 8 X 8, 64 X 128, 256 X 256, 512 X 1024... each side has to be a power of 2 (2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, etc ). They can be the same (square) or different making a retangular texture. But in the case of textures, size does matter.

3) if you are importing 3ds, it always copies the colors used and adds them to the texture, but it doesn't ever work the way I think it should, making objects that look fine in OZ but black in eq for example. I normally have to go in and edit the color out

[Runeblade]

Thanx for the reply Scorpius. I have been using 512x512 bmp for my texturing but for weapon models I always get a white model but static zone objects are fine. I'll fiddle around with them some more and see if I can learn anything else.

[oldlurker]

Windcatcher: Do you know of the Worldforge project? Especially the Ember client looks very promising and has quite a good choice of models, maybe there is a efficient way to convert these to your client.

http://wiki.worldforge.org/wiki/Ember

There are videos that show the model and terrain editor in action.

[Runeblade]

Alright i've been waiting to really get started on customizing a zone until I made sure I could do everything I visioned and was wondering is it possible to add npcs with custom models or change npcs models to a custom model?

3 Main questions

1. Custom armor- What is the extent of custom armor? Can I make my own chestplate skin or maybe even model where as I equip the chestplate item and it shows up on my char as my customized skin/model?
*Helmet models seem the closest to been customized and find it strange that any helmet that shows, being leather,chain,plate etc is all under the model IT63. Seems odd that a plate mail helmet would be using the same model as a leather head piece. Cloth helmets though don't show up and have a model number of 0. I guess not showing gives it that number.*

2. Model Swap- How do I swap eq models with my custom made ones? I have a real trippy idea that I could whip up in a day or two with a custom model, a couple of npcs,an added waypoint grid, and custom quest.

3. Zone size- Why are eq zones the size they are? Why arent like north and south qeynos hooked together or all the karana's? Is it so you dont have a mob chasing you over 3 zone lengths to get to safety for the karana's since dieing there was a pain back in kunark and qeynos having to many npcs to handle in 1 zone for the old hardware of the time?

Zone size- If its just something simple I would like to increase zone parimeters by x3 but only if my second question *Model Swap* is do-able.

If I can get info on how to do one or both of those, I'll start overhauling new zones like crazy with buildings, scenery, etc. I've been staying up 2days sleeping just afew hours sometimes so I can get this moving before school starts >.<

Extra - I've played with Anim8or for an hour and it is alittle different then my old Gmax program for rigging and animating and is frustrating atm but i'll learn :).

[John Adams]

I think if you make super-massive zones, it might kill the performance of most PC-based servers running the emulator. Not to mention what it might do to memory. I am pretty sure that's the sole purpose for everything being chunked in the first place (ala SOE). Though there was probably also some "immersion" reasons behind zones, too.