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-   -   Questions (http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25653)

LordRathgil 07-08-2008 10:40 AM

Questions
 
Is this project being updated any longer or supported? If not is there the option of perhaps transfering it to other developers? Ive been using it as best i can with the zone crash bug to work on the ingame content of my project while i wait for the client dev to work his magic so i was just wondering

Or atleast opening the source i mean as i understand it the emu devs wanted it closed to prevent cheating? This makes no sense since SC stores all the packet structs for the servers in plain text files that anyone can edit or work with

Windcatcher 07-08-2008 03:55 PM

I have to admit that I'm pretty burned out at the moment. Check your PM's...

Windcatcher 07-08-2008 06:16 PM

Actually it is to prevent cheating, but not of the packet-mangling type:
- making invisible mobs visible
- flying around the zone rather than colliding with walls
- levitating at will

Basically the server doesn't check anything with respect to what the client can see or the client's movement, and these are ways that someone could cheat if he could recompile the client. If it wasn't for that, I'd have opened the source the day I released it. I'm still considering it, but I haven't decided yet. I would like to hear real input from interested parties--publicly--on it before I decide.

LordRathgil 07-08-2008 06:26 PM

You know i actually hadnt considered that bit of it, But then again im usually more worried about network security then client side so that was my fault.

BTW one of the other devs on my project suggested you take a look at the stairs collision code ( Seems the client treats stairs as ladders)

I have no idea what the zoning bug I have is its like the client just stops doing its thing. now and again the server will get so far as to list the client in the new zone but the client never really makes it part of it was that all the included zones are marked 3rd party in the db ( Is zone proxy required for SC?)

Richardo 07-08-2008 07:10 PM

Deleted stupid argument posts, don't bring them up in another section either. (Settle your issues elsewhere.)

LordRathgil 07-08-2008 07:25 PM

Thanks to whoever removed the IP.

Anyway dont think that many people use it to be honest possibly due to the bugs. I personally hope it gets opened up at the very least itll allow us few who do use it the chance to fix the bugs ourselves

LordRathgil 07-08-2008 07:45 PM

5 minute editing policy bah! LOL thanks Richardo


I mean to say that if your burned out and it doesnt currently work with the latest servers anyway cheating really isnt that much of an issue Atleast i dont think it would be. with so few people using it i think the benefit of it being opensourced would be better then the possible cheating aspects

Windcatcher 07-08-2008 07:46 PM

ZoneProxy isn't required for SC. There must be a bug somewhere, but it's hard for me to diagnose since I haven't had any problems. The problem with the stairs is that they're just a little too high for the way I handle collision avoidance. I put an ellipsoid around the player, and where it hits the edge of a step it slides along it, but since the ellipsoid is taller than it is wide it makes you stop a bit. I've spent a lot of time tweaking the collision avoidance code, and I'm thinking that it probably needs some sort of special handler for steps, but it wouldn't be at all easy I think without really slowing things down. Another possibility is tweaking the ellipsoid, maybe make it shorter, I don't know.

Richardo, what do you think? Should I just open the client source up? Scorp? I'd really like to hear from people who have been around a while as well as people who have built servers.

LordRathgil 07-08-2008 07:53 PM

now see that is what i was thinking the problem is. something to do with the height of the stairs in relation to the shape representing the player.

Ive tried everything i can try for the zone problem without lookinga t the code itself if you dont have problems then perhaps i need to ask you about your particular setup so that we can find the difference i have it running on my c Drive in the root of c running windows xp sp2 mysql 4.0.26 perl 5.8 and i followed the readme i can login and get into the first zone fine but upon a ztz ingress it just crashes

Richardo 07-08-2008 08:01 PM

WindCatcher, I like your project you had going. If released open source, I think it would be very beneficial considering the young talent available in the EQEMU community. Many people have walked through EQEMU and have dreamed of making more than just another eqemu server. Honestly WindCatcher, if you want my honest opinion. I think releasing it would be a great idea! Everyone who makes an eqemu server (in my opinion) wants to make a game that people enjoy but are always limited to certain road blocks. (Distributing files, etc.) SimpleClient really simplifies this process (pun intended.) and if we just had more helping hands to help build and develop this project.. It could really grow a lot. WindCatcher, I am certainly pro-releasing SC. If you need more hosting for SC, I can certainly lend you my bandwidth. :)

Windcatcher 07-08-2008 08:01 PM

What zone were you going to? Were you walking out the zone exit, or using #zone? One thing you should look at is the server windows: for some reason, if it can't find a zone in your DB, it sends you to arena, which will NOT work with SC since the zone isn't there (unless you create an arena zone and add it to your DB).

Well, that's one vote for releasing it (and you all know my opinion -- I **really** want to release the source and be done with it).

LordRathgil 07-08-2008 08:06 PM

I tried walking i tried GM Command ot every zone all crash its reallly wierd when i log in it puts me in the right place if it gets that far sometimes it does sometimes it doesnt but its every zone included in the dB you put in the download walking or GM commands

LordRathgil 07-08-2008 08:16 PM

releasing it is my vote as well as I understand the project it is meant to give people the abbility to make their own whole new game which would be really hard without the source and or regular updates and fixes, opening the source will allow people to one make their own version of the game and two allow the community to fix bugs and further develop the client

kfrench16 07-09-2008 08:30 AM

My vote for opensource release as well. I'd really like to see how you communicated back and forth between the world and zone servers

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 12:59 PM

anyone know if theres a way to turn the gui fade off?

Scorpious2k 07-09-2008 04:27 PM

My opinion, for whatever it is worth is that, while it would be nice for it to be open source (albeit in delphi), doing this would make it worthless for serverOps.

Once the code is available to all, anyone can recompile it with their own changes. Specifically for cheating. Is there any serverOp out there who wants players with the equivalent of MacroQuest on steroids in the hands of their players? And that would be built in to the client.

I feel that if this were open source, a legit server would be impossible.

On the other hand, if you had it in the hands of a few trusted programmers to help, it might take off some of the pressure on you.

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 04:41 PM

I disagree Scorpious, simple fact is anyone who wants the source will most likley Rewrite it to suit their needs and wishes and wont redistribute their particular brand of the client. Atleast thats what anyone who would actually want a truly custom client would do source or no source there is enough already open sourced in the client to do far worse then macroquest considering every single packet struct is there not only that but the loginserver code is oss among other things.

If people want to cheat the system i doubt they are going to take the time to edit then recompile a whole client to do it when it would be soooo much simpler to just edit those plain text files.

The entire point of SC is to allow people to make brand new games this cannot be done without the source code, unless they want a cookie cutter version of well EQ.

My two cents is to have an open source version to allow the community to work on it, however SC does NOT work with any servers currently on the public ls anyway so the cheating aspect is really a moot point as any server ops who really are serious about making a totally unique game would likely change a great deal to make it happen both on their server and in the client atleast that is what we would do with LJ.

I mean whats the point of SC if you cant customize it entirely its just a much less developed flavor of the base EQ client if people cant edit it as they want to, seems like a buttload of wasted time on WC's part when you want to impose the same limitations on the people using it that they already endure with the main eq client anyway, Like i said what is the point when they can just use the EQ client if all they can do in SC is add zones and things like that which is all they can do in the EQ client now?

Keeping it closed source is what is keeping the people interested in it from devoting any real time to using it IMO Because like I said why would they bother with it when its simpler to use the main eq client which already works with the latest servers, has a ton more content and models and features

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 04:50 PM

gah hit the button too soon to finish that last sentance...

It just doesnt make sense to bother with it if you have the same limitations you have with using the eq client the only difference is you can add zones instead of replacing them but you still have to do all the modeling work and everything else so really all you get in the end is the same result as you get when you add custom zones to your eq client.

I fail to see how people can make a truly custom game that gets away from SOE stuff with out being able to truly customize the client.

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 05:09 PM

I mean really think about it. Keeping it closed up is jsut basicly making it another SOE client that people cant do what they want with to make something truly unique anyone using it will just endup with a customized carbon copy of everyone else that uses it.

I know I for one wouldnt waste my time using something that cant be changed adequately, some people might want to replace the graphics engine for their game, others might want to change the opcodes and add features that are custom to their servers, some might want to remove features.

Keeping it closed up takes all those options out of the mix. Heck some people might want to add encryption specific to their server and login system to it. its just i dunno a waste of WC's time and vision if you want to limit people using it the same way that they are limited with the eq client, its like a total waste of his time and work, Imean he worked his butt off for 4.5 years according to the posts on this to give people the change to make something truly unique and now your saying they shouldnt be able to truly make something unique because of them cheating?

Richardo 07-09-2008 05:42 PM

Scorpious is right, however... There's ways around it. Require server ops to distribute their own version of the client that is not opensource. For example:


I run server (REVENGE OF AOREKAEPROKROTHERIOAS [PVP]).

My RoA compiled client will have a special ID (that cannot be changed considering it's in the binaries). The server will check the ID and if it does not match what I have specified, it will not connect. And there you go...

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 05:45 PM

still wont stop people from cheating the source of the eq client has never gotten out and look at macroquest heck look at eqemu. The point here is thatif people want to cheat they will find away whether they have the source or not.

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 05:49 PM

however richardos idea is a good one like for instance i had planned on adding encryption specific to my server into it. but the thing is like i said without the source all it is is another eq client just not from soe if people cant truly customize it theres no point to using it over the eq client

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 05:52 PM

And lets not forget that simple client wont work on a normal eqemu server it doesnt work with any of the base eq zones anyway so there is no real threat to the community as a whole anyway, therefore as such taking the chance of people cheating should be left to the server ops taht use the software not to other people imo

Richardo 07-09-2008 07:01 PM

Well, that was actually my whole point. Using SC as the main client rather than using EQ at all.

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 07:03 PM

well yeah but thats really far down the road ya know, as it is now its not that popular but i think atleast it should be available by request atleast for server ops even if its not a public release.

LordRathgil 07-09-2008 07:06 PM

what i mean to say is using SC as the main eqemu client and getting rid of the soe client support in the servers is a ways off i know id personally like to use it for my project now if i had the source to work with and tweak as needed for the project so its not just a custom eq server but a unique game in and of itself, not sure if others would like to do that but i know know that theres no way itd work on a server with a normal install of zones and stuff cause it cant even read soe files so they would need to remake all the zones in order to use it on a normal install of any version of the emu server db

along with all itejm models and icons spells and so forth or they wont be able to play

Richardo 07-10-2008 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordRathgil (Post 152327)
well yeah but thats really far down the road ya know, as it is now its not that popular but i think atleast it should be available by request atleast for server ops even if its not a public release.

As long as someone makes a good server and promotes it properly, it doesn't really matter.

sesmar 07-10-2008 08:42 AM

I am all for releasing the source code, albeit mostly for personal and probably selfish reasons; although, I can see both sides here. I agree that releasing the source will most likely increase interest in SimpleClient and open many possibilities previously unavailable to custom servers. I can also see the disadvantage to releasing the source in that it would make it easier to cheat on a server; however, other games have open source clients and servers and that does not seem to stop them from becoming successful, take Planshift for instance. I think it just requires the developer to get more creative such as Richardo's idea and many other things that can be done in order to prevent people from compiling their own version of the client and connecting to your server.

If my vote counts for anything I vote for releasing the source.

Hell, it is written in Delphi and who the hell uses that anymore (j/k WC).

LordRathgil 07-10-2008 09:43 AM

worldforge and torque also are available in source format and that doesnt teter them heck minions of mirth which uses the torque mmo kit is opensource and apparently very popular and people dont cheat just because the source is open. To not release the source to the client because of the fear people will cheat doesnt make any real sense.

Infact one of the simplest means of preventing people from using a client other then your own would be the expansions variable in the database if the value doesnt match what the client sends then they are automaticly banned from the world server that solves the problem right there

I still say release it, source or no source people who are determined to find a way to cheat the system will do it reguardless of having the source to do it and they dont need the source to do it either ( Again look at MQ) Planeshift MOM Worldforge are all completely opensource and they dont seem to have a problem with it

LordRathgil 07-10-2008 06:34 PM

oh and another benefit of opensourcing is that server devs wont have to wait for someone else to make a fix and post a release they could fix them themselves.

A project like SC just wont work with only a few developers atleast not in a timely fashoin they wont be able to work on it 8 hours a day every day ya know? Opensourcing will allow it to get developed much much faster people will post bug fixes, new features and ideas upgrades ( such as upgrading the graphics engine) and so forth.

the only way to allow truly unique games to be made with it is to opensource it, short of that the devs would have to make it so generic and editable that it would be just about the same risk of cheating either way.

So why not just release it and let the community do what its done for all these years and help build it make new flavors of it, make it grow into a good unique pice of software. I guarentee that if the source is released in a short time you will see its popularity grow and see the community chipping in with it contributing their code and additions to this great software.

Well WC so far its a 5 to 1 vote on opensourcing it some good dialog reguarding opening the source has gone on so what do you say, afterall its your project and as far as i can tell the only one of your great programs youve given the community which doesnt include the source.

LordRathgil 07-10-2008 07:07 PM

btw whatever happened to openeq?

LordRathgil 07-10-2008 07:38 PM

Ive gotten the client to work properly with 0.5.6 perl enabled it required reverting the structs to the 0.5.5 structs (crashed with the included 5.6 structs file)

Richardo 07-10-2008 10:12 PM

*begs for opensource*

Look, cheating via self compiled client is not an issue.

If you want people to be able to use the eq client, then do it this way... If client connects to server using Simple Client, he/she is required to use a certain version and it must be verified by the server according to the users specifications in the compiled binaries. If the client is connecting from eq, then you really don't have much to worry about considering hacked client binaries.

LordRathgil 07-10-2008 10:15 PM

I agree and it wouldnt take much to add the check into the server at all

BTW Side note ive gotten 0.5.6 and 0.5.8 to work without crashing but with 0.5.8 theres no quests (that i can figure out how to get working) 0.6.0-dr2 doesnt work it crashes on op_wearchange but its progress

Windcatcher 07-10-2008 10:17 PM

Okay, I think you're beginning to win me over. I'm going away for the weekend so I can't release anything now but maybe Sunday. At least I have a couple of days to mull it over (and you have a couple of days to debate it some more :D )

LordRathgil 07-10-2008 10:19 PM

debating is fun lol mull away man mull away lol hope its a pleasure trip and nota business trip! lol BTW could ya check yer pms when ya get a minute shot ya a couple questions

Side note has anyone actually compiled oz? Im stuck on the fastMM4 keeps saying file not fount fastmm4.dcu

oh and can SC run a version earlier then 0.5.5 just curious been thinking about using a 0.5.3 version i have

Windcatcher 07-10-2008 11:20 PM

Cripp has compiled it. I spent a few hours helping him get the Delphi environment set up.

LordRathgil 07-10-2008 11:23 PM

ahh yeah that explains it when ya get the chance could ya drop me a pm with some instructions i use boreland delphi 6 enterprise they dont have to be super detailed just a simple how to would be fine

rathgil81 07-11-2008 12:54 AM

Ok a few ideas i had about SC... which if the source is release i plan on working on unless someone beats me to it

1) Implimenting a Loading screen
2) Making the window title show the game or server name
3) cleaning up the item table fields( e.g the unknowns) and making the client match so its easier to work with
4) Danyamic sky (meaning multiple skies to choose from for various zones)
5) Control Key mapping
6) Journal Window
7) Support for other versions of the emu ( 0.5.3, and 0.6.1-0.7.x)
8) Patch system
These are some minor glitches ive seen

1) Targeting ( the need to click the mob in precisly the right place in order to target)
2) Player lights seem to crash the server
3) Item window shows (param2) in some places
4) 0.6.0-dr2 Client crashes on OP_WearChange

rathgil81 07-11-2008 12:58 AM

OH and a biggie ive been working on is adding authentication to clearlogin ( And encryption if possible)


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