Hacker

[Angelox]

True, but you are just now posting the PEQ quest pack which hasn't had an up date since last year (probably was posted because you saw this storm brewing).
Also, your PEQ Database is posted, but very complicated for most people to access. They have to go to the CVS and learn how to fish for the files.
In Resume, I think you are all most interested in the PEQ Server for gameplay (and fame), when your first passion and priority should be to serve the public and provide them with fast, easy updates to what you are doing (the source as well as the database).
Maybe you "meant" to do it or "didn't have time" - but if PEQ is to belong to the public, then you first priority is to give it to everyone, not sit on it and work it into the server.
If there is an update, it should go public right away and now dwell around on some ones "private" server. If there is a problem with the update, then we all know this is alpha/beta, so we can report it and take it out.
I also think you are being unjust by not permiting other servers in the "Preferred Server" listings. Currently, I see no good reason why anyone should be under the "preferred" server listing void to promote their server.

Originally Posted by WildcardX

I have to take exception here on the statements that EQEmu is a dying project or that no work is being done anymore. I know for a fact the hard work cavedude and I put into the PEQ work database. Him and I are adding or editing the database on a daily basis. Also, there are a number of people who are contributing other changes to the PEQ database which we manage and then there are also a number of people who make contributions to the quests on a daily basis. As for the coding, I know KLS and FNW are very active as am I. Its true that during the summer, things slowed down a lot, but I think thats normal and happens every summer. I know for me, the summer means a lot of home improvement projects and vacation.

Anyways, it irked me reading that nothing is being done to further the project, because it is simply not true. And this is coming from one of the "developers"... me.

[cavedude]

*Ahem*

http://eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23534

[cavedude]

I take offense to the fact that you seem to think our database is "private." The fact of the matter is CVS is very easy to use, and if people can't figure out, then that is their problem. I update it frequently, so our software is anything but private. I am not one to push out half assed releases just for the sake of releasing something. When I push something out, I want it to be of the highest quality. The Ykesha release isn't ready, but I do agree it has been too long since the last true release so it needed to get out. Maybe once the epics are all complete, and we get the few zones overhauled we wanted to, I'll do push a RC1.

I also take offense to the fact that you feel the server is the main part of the project and is about "fame." I agree we are concerned about gameplay... those corrections or bug fixes in the code go right to the EQEmu CVS. Looking down the EQEmu changelog I can list at least 20 items that either I requested or reported because of Grand Creation. But, the main purpose of the server is the database and quests, both of which I spend hours a day working on. The players are aware of the fact that the server itself is the least of my priorities, and as long as I do care about their concerns (which I am) they are happy and continue to feed me with database bug rerports and suggestions.

[WildcardX]

In Resume, I think you are all most interested in the PEQ Server for gameplay (and fame), when your first passion and priority should be to serve the public and provide them with fast, easy updates to what you are doing (the source as well as the database).

I'm not sure what to say about this, other than it is just bullshit. And are you seriously getting on our case over how we post the PEQ database? Seriously? The PEQ database is easily available to anyone via download from CVS. If you think it ought to be compressed and zipped up in a nice neat archive file, then by all means break out the wrapping paper and tie a pretty pink bow on it and post it for download yourself here, if thats what you'd prefer. I'd also like to point out that we also make ALL the quest files available via CVS as well. Again, anyone at anytime can log into CVS and download them.

I apologize if this sounds like I'm mad. I have to admit I find what I have read here offensive to all the great work we have done at PEQ over the last year and to all the great work that is being done to server development itself.

[TheLieka]

Wow, this thread was flirting with turning into something productive before everyone decided to Circle the Wagons.

Change scares some people, it's an unfortunate fact of life. I've been trolling the forums and playing on servers for few years (never hardcore, mind you), and I orginally heard about EQEmu from a friend that wanted me to try this awesome new thing called GuildWars (before the non-namesake ripoff PC game came out).

I've seen a lot of things change, and bannings sway based on which cults of personality were in control of which piece at the time. Granted, I didn't post for years after seeing some of the things that happened to people that posted. I've had a ton of stupid questions, but slowly but surely, I've found the answers to them, until I was finally ready to take a stab at setting up my own server.

Cavedude and Wildcard, I know it's instinct to get defensive, and I do understand that, but I think that you guys got brought into this as collateral damage. The central point to this whole thread is, something needs to happen to stimulate the community. Let's look away from the devs for a minute, and stop pointing fingers at whose fault it is.

The bottom line is, people are starting to get bored. Yes, your community, the group of people that, I've seen so many pretend, don't fucking matter. I ask you this: If the community (read as: the players) are not important, because they haven't submitted code (yet), then who are you building this code for? I could fill the fucking grand canyon with the posts I've seen bashing the players. Do the devs get together and have a tickle fight on a different person's server every saturday? No. It's not anyone's midterm project, no one has to do this. The code and databases exists to put up a server for PLAYERS to log into. The community DOES matter, and the fact that I've seen reinforced over and over is that as soon as someone gets into a control position, they seem to forget why they can even call themselves a (insert title here). There are a lot of political and social parallels to this going on right now, but I'll keep that to myself, for risk of the thread getting further derailed.

Something needs to happen, someone needs to, as image said, learn from the mistakes, and swallow a little gulp of pride. If you are in control (of the database, of the source, of the forums, of a server, of any aspect of this community), and you feel yourself getting disinterested, don't have time, or just don't give a shit, then do yourself and everyone else a favor and hand over the reigns to someone with some enthusiasm for it. Burnout is completely normal, and no one will view you as a quitter or a deserter for standing down, BUT do not half-way stand down (holding onto or holding back certain pieces of code, etc), don't try to make the community realize how fucking important you are, you'll only tarnish your own name, and people will resent you for your last days, rather than glorify your time in service to the community. This community (EQEmu and PEQ are not separate communities) needs to get excited about something, and it's been a while since anyone has had anything major to get excited about. When the community gets excited, you'll see more code slingers, database devs, security spooks, project managers, GMs, and players coming out of the woodwork to participate than you'll know what to do with (and all of the positions listed in this statement are equally important to this community, if you disagree, then reread the first two sentences of this paragraph quietly to yourself while you blush).

If you are jaded and unhappy with your part in the community, you're projecting that on everyone you come in contact with.

The good news is: Enthusiasm is extremely contagious, and it will only take is a few excited people to re-energize this entire project (if you say that it doesn't need to be revitalized, then you're in complete and total denial: likely due to a fear of healthy internal competition. Let's not forget that it's competition that put a man on the moon).

[/motivational speach off]

Ok some key points.

-PEQ is trucking along, work is being done
-nice work being done to allow bots ! omg i think thats so cool
-Openzone ! its te sweet!
-open client, wow Wind, and anyone helping i am in awe.
-countless others, with code fixes, quests and anything else i cant think of off the top of my head all great things.

Not one was mentioned in my post, my concerns are based on those with a developer tag, those who can actually modify the code.

Doodman has contributed so much to the community, not one person can claim otherwise.

FNW, has rewrote, fixed, coded, quested, lord knows how much.

I hear there is more developers know but /shrug where are they? who are they? and thats my point, there is no communication.

so far i have tried to get a hold of the dev team via the following
over 21 unanswered e-mails
over 30 unanswered PM's via forums
countless hours on IRC trying to get answers

And i am sopose to be helping run the forums!

The "official" development team has cut themselves off from anyone who cant live on IRC, if you can be there 24/7 then you can catch them, otherwise your left in the dark (including me)

I have much love for the people who contributed and made EQEmu what it is, but the current devs need to look at "promoting" people who are more actively involved.


I never claimed eqemu was dying, I just claim we need more involved developers.

[Sakrateri]

Matt please lock this down before more people are indicted on false pretenses and we lose some more good minds in this community .....and by the way Angel......why the fuck would you have to drag some innocent names into a conversation like this and talk about them in a defamatory way??

True, but you are just now posting the PEQ quest pack which hasn't had an up date since last year (probably was posted because you saw this storm brewing).
Also, your PEQ Database is posted, but very complicated for most people to access. They have to go to the CVS and learn how to fish for the files.
In Resume, I think you are all most interested in the PEQ Server for gameplay (and fame), when your first passion and priority should be to serve the public and provide them with fast, easy updates to what you are doing (the source as well as the database).
Maybe you "meant" to do it or "didn't have time" - but if PEQ is to belong to the public, then you first priority is to give it to everyone, not sit on it and work it into the server.
If there is an update, it should go public right away and now dwell around on some ones "private" server. If there is a problem with the update, then we all know this is alpha/beta, so we can report it and take it out.
I also think you are being unjust by not permiting other servers in the "Preferred Server" listings. Currently, I see no good reason why anyone should be under the "preferred" server listing void to promote their server.

While your at it Matt, I vote for a 10 day ban on Angel for out of jealousy bringing other people into this conversation and being such a little dick.

P.S Angel,learn cvs you power mad little twit

[TheLieka]

Originally Posted by Sakrateri

Matt please lock this down before more people are indicted on false pretenses and we lose some more good minds in this community .....and by the way Angel......why the fuck would you have to drag some innocent names into a conversation like this and talk about them in a defamatory way??


While your at it Matt, I vote for a 10 day ban on Angel for out of jealousy bringing other people into this conversation and being such a little dick.

P.S Angel,learn cvs you power mad little twit

I completely disagree with this statement. Angel may be wrong, but the ability to voice opinions and concerns for the project should not be met with punitive actions. If you twart the communities attempts to speak freely, you're only going to continue and reinforce the silent mass exodus that has already started. What's the purpose? ...To pet a couple of egos? Just because someone speaks out (and you disagree with them (note, I have NO opinion on this, as I don't know or care anything about it, read my last post)) doesn't mean that they should be banned.

Rather than trying to make a Stalinistic example out of someone, how about letting people speak to the points, and let's see where it leads us.

[WildcardX]

FYI. The current dev team is probably not as cohesive as other dev teams in the past, but they include:

FNW
Doodman
KLS
WildcardX
Rogean

I'm sure there are a couple others that also should be included as "devs" and who also have access to the server code respository, so this is by no means an all inclusive list. Also, some of us are more active than others at different points in the year. Speaking for myself, I know I do most of my work during the fall and winter, but then I go sit in my pool for the summer and drool over my wife's bikini.

I agree there ought to be better communication and collaboration.

[TheLieka]

Originally Posted by WildcardX

The current dev team is probably not as cohesive as other dev teams in the past, but they include:

FNW
Doodman
KLS
WildcardX
Rogean

From what I know of the devs that I've worked with in my professional career, they probably would much rather sit in their offices and code crunch than actually talk to people, especially to whole community (our Sr. Dev refers to anyone outside of IT as "mouth breathers", hehe). For many highly intelligent / skilled people, they need someone else to be their own public voice. It saves them time, effort, face, and keeps them from getting pissed off about what they're doing (at least publically).

We have always had a business analyst / project manager type person that keeps track of what everyone is working on and keeps everyone in the loop about the status of things, this way the devs can focus on being devs rather than worrying about that whole "communication" thing.

Maybe this project shouldn't be too far beyond the structure of a typical office environment in that aspect? Is there someone technical and familiar enough with the project that the devs wouldn't mind keeping in the loop, that could act as a liason to the community? Perhaps this person could bridge EQEMU and PEQ for this role as well?

Just a thought.

Dax

[CrabClaw]

No need to ban anyone, golly. Having been a lurker for the past many years before even registering I have seen the whole Hamlet-esque soap opera play out from waaay back. I give props to Matt for cleaning out all the 'dudes' who made the forums very unwelcome back in the 'good ol' days' when everyone wore spiky haircuts and being dowsed in beer was the preferred method of helping people.

I try to contribute what content I can, even help a clueless person once and a while with a PM or post, without pretense of credit or praise, merely for the good of those who want to play. That's all you can hope for a free project, ego's be damned. It's just me returning the karma for all the fun I am having, shouldn't that me the modus operandi of everyone here? I just worry about pulling out the moldy old laundry again is ix-naying our high right now.

But sure, if someone wants to package up the PEQ or whatever into a zip file and host it so people have easy access, who cares? For the record, I do SVN and compile my own projects now, but, waaay back when I was a youngling I got my start with Cavedudes excellent 3.x installer. Once I learned SQL, Perl, and compiling, I do it all myself now. Heck what I have learned here is moving me onto my own SQL/Python/Crystalspace/Blender based D2 clone project. So I thank the project for that.

(--If there is a security fix you can help people with then at least put the right people on the right course to fix it.)

[gernblan]

I know plenty of people, and I'll even name some: blah, striat, that are capable coders, who I have spoken to, that HAVE written patches (I'm even running some on my server and they work) that claim that all of their attempts just to get the code into the tree has been fruitless.

The problem here is that nobody seems to accept the patches when they are posted.

Someone, whoever the actual maintainer is, should be quick to accept updates, and someone should be available to talk to these potential devs and find out just HOW good they are and HOW willing they are to continue working on the project... and they should be encouraged.

Again, I know good people who have told me repeatedly just how frustrated they are that they don't have a voice. I can only wonder just how much the project has suffered because of this.

That being said, I applaud those that do work on the emu, and I applaud those that do have SVN write access. However, I would like to know what it actually takes for someone not already in the loop to start to contrinute. What is being doen to expand the contributer base here? Anything?

What I'd like to see are submissions being taken seriously. I'd like to see them promptly tested, and I'd like to see them added to the tree.

[gernblan]

And the flaming and derailing attempts I've seen in this thread so far?

Pathetic.

Seriously, is this REALLY about your ego? Do you actually CARE about this project and the people who participate in it... all the way down to those who are trying to enjoy it, the players? What's with the butt-hurt commentary?

Look, this is really simple: if there is a DDOS bug that is KNOWN, then somebody that knows how to and is willing, please fix it.

And when that code is posted, NO MATTER WHO IT IS FROM, put it in the damn tree.

[gernblan]

ROFL just realized I should get some sleep.. said BLAH instead of bleh two posts up.

My bad, and bleh, sorry.

[Angelox]

Again, this is where we are mistaken; Everyone who ever made/is making a piece of code for EqEmu, should be considered a "dev", not just the few people that have control over the repository.
In any case, the ones that truly hold the key to this EqEmu project and its future, *still* have not posted a word about anything for anything, anywhere, in any form. Not just now, but for a while. This is not right: plenty of us here are truly interested and dedicated enough to a point where we give away our time and money to see this work (in good faith), and are willing to do more. If I got a few people pissed, well I'm sorry (didn't mean to), but I'm not on anyones side but EqEmus, and so should we all!
Maybe I just have a wrong opinion of what "open source" really is?