Classic or era-based server content

[fzzzty]

I made a server something like five years ago to see "how MMOs work" (not that EQemu is representative of MMO architecture these days). It was fun, frustrating without the guides that are around today. I've been thinking about trying again. Similar to P99, which I enjoy, but with some custom mechanics that will never exist on there. I'm sure I can get the server up and running, my question is about the content...

I found ProjectEQ, which seems great, but I would bet that P99 has diverged or done their own modifications and I'm guessing they haven't ported their findings back to ProjectEQ (I don't think ProjectEQ really has a way for them to do that from what I can tell). Does anyone know if this is correct?

Also, ProjectEQ seems to be progression based, meaning their previous era versions are not maintained, so e.g. their Velious-era database would have "fixes" in the Luclin version. If I wanted to create a Velious-era server, and used the latest version on ProjectEQ while disabling newer zones, I'm guessing that would include changes to the Velious-era content (e.g. nerfs) that were made post-Velious. Is that correct?

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to compete with P99 (or anyone else), I don't want that headache. The headache I want is to just make something different and/or see if my ideas are fun or (most likely) horrible, but within the era I enjoyed the most.

From reading patches, posts, etc. from P99 it seems like they "enable eras", which sounds interesting, as if there is a timeline of eras rolled up with patches that they move through...not just making things act as they were in an era, but working through the steps in time. That's pretty cool if that's how they work (meaning P99), but I digress.

[provocating]

Nilbog and Rogean do not share many, if any changes back to PEQ that I know. Yes, both parties could work together but that is not how it is currently working out. As far as using the standard default PEQ database, there will be months or even years of changes you will have to make if you want a truly Velious era database. I have been doing it for around 4 months now and still have a long way to go. Your items, start locations, spawns, spells, trivials on tradeskills, skill caps, zone lines will all have to be adjusted. That is not even touching quest changes like money and xp given.

[image]

It is a huge undertaking, devnoob and I personally have been reverting from a PEQ database because our original database was so old back from the early GuildWars days. We do this during/inbetween the servers we host (when people play on it) and this new rendition has been going on since about 2011. I am still fixing things to this day and some things can't be fixed sometimes without modifying the client.

A good example of 'client side' issues is the 'brown skeleton' model from classic -- you won't be able to get it working unless you do some impressive texture/model changes (or modify the client). Eg. http://i54.tinypic.com/k21ogk.jpg. Some things really come down to nitpicking of how classic it needs to be.

How much work do you want to put into it and how much time you want to learn how to do new things because if you take on a responsibility of the eqemu server by yourself you inherit the responsibilities of the code base, database and the client.

[AdrianD]

Long read...

I agree with image and provocating. It is a huge undertaking. I'm just one guy with limited knowledge and there is enough within the database to consume unknown hours/days/weeks to alter to a previous time.

There is a certain segment of folks here who wish to have classic/progression content and I believe this segment is large enough to warrant a bit of organization.

I recently had a conversation with someone about this. Below are the edited parts which may have relevance to this topic. Maybe something here will entice others in some way:

I have other zones I intend to revamp with the same process. Coming up with the process took the most amount of time. It was a first for using queries in certain ways. The next revamp will take a fraction of the time, especially with good data.

I kick myself and SMH when I see myself and others working individually on our own projects. I understand the pride involved with working our asses off on these projects for whatever the reason.

I haven't reached out much until recently for something like sharing the workload. I haven't been confident enough in my abilities to pull my weight, until recently.

I don't know if I can offer anybody anything but, I am sick and tired of seeing other people do the same exact thing I am doing. It's totally pointless for me, or anyone else, to spend hours/days/weeks on stuff that has been done more than once when this is supposed to be a community.

Not trying to rant and I know my point may not be totally clear. As this pertains to you: I am trying to find the most accurate data from the classic era. I have an old axclassic database from I-don't-know-when. The DB is unfinished but it has enough good data to get started on several zones. We may have used the same DB.

I'm definitely not a "developer" in the professional sense. I went from basically zero knowledge to the little I have now. I don't know C++ yet, I couldn't create a quest (lua) script without looking at a similar script but, I can work with the database. I'm not a pro at it although I can actually do things that I had to put on the backburner in the past because I didn't know how to do them.

Now that I can do some of these things, I question whether or not I should do them. It's rewarding to know I can get this stuff done but...

I have an AXClassic DB from 4/7/14. I am unsure if that was the last update. I have cavedude's last peq dump (last February?) which is very close to what I have from about six months prior. I've updated the source and DB tables (~7/30/15) to accomodate the source and I am not looking to stray from that due to my limitations.

I enjoy taking data and putting it to use. Solving the problem to put it to use. It was gratifying to take the CT data from axclassic, for instance, and plug it in to the peq schema. It took quite a bit of data vetting, as I call it. But, after this I realized there is still a fair amount of work to fine tune the zone, not to mention what I will do with Feerrott. (I have ideas of what I could do to balance it to the revamped CT without a ton of work but, I appreciate continuity more than an easy fix)

Axclassic DB has, what appears to be, good data on droga/nurga. I will likely do the same with them.

A major concern is balancing the classic planes. I was not playing EQ more regularly until around luclin/PoP and I didn't raid. Data from peq seems good but, I don't have a frame of reference. I use P99 wiki as a source and whatever else I can find. The P99 wiki, in many places, is a copy/paste of data from peq so I question it's authenticity.

I'm not as concerned about post-classic data as much because there is more information out there about it. The EQLive devs in later expansions seemed to do more global changes to things which are much easier to identify.

I agree and getting it perfect does not consume me. I personally feel getting the classic data as accurate as possible is more important than anything else, as far as content/data goes.

I make what I call "expansion queries" which take data from the main DB (peq) to create specific "expansions". Currently, they do a pretty good job of separating the expansion and era-specific data. I added a few simple columns in the main DB which identify the expansion and in the "expansion settings" stage of these queries, use this setting to create what I call the "usable database" based on the criteria I put in the settings. I don't need to get the timeline 100% correct. For example, paineel came out around SolRo temple, I did not include paineel in my "planes" expansion. Epic 1.0 are with the "Hole" expansion, and so on.

I could explain the process more, because you probably know, it's not as simple as joining a few tables and setting conditions. At this point, the process is highly accurate. The process and the accuracy of the content depend completely on the few columns I added to a few tables.

It's not without flaws. I have found some and fixing a few of them while keeping continuity of content takes some thought and a fair amount of time.

I'm currently up to "luclin" (for a total of 7 different "usable" DB builds) and changing the queries for later expansions is usually a pretty simple endeavor. These builds are a one-click process from a current usable or live DB. I have original DB live and could make it luclin in five minutes and login and see the pretty new player models with my old SSoY X 2. =)

I'm not saying what I have set up is different or special, that's silly. I'm a rookie.

My interest in this ebbs and flows as I am sure it does with others. I don't have any expectations although I am impatient. I work on stuff I know I can do and try to learn in between.

There is kindof a web, a simple web (if that makes sense), of connections in my current DB linked through the queries. I haven't flushed out all the inconsistencies but it's still pretty good. The beautiful thing about it is, it's simple at it's core.

I am willing to share everything I have done. The original DB, the source and everything else has been shared with me. I won't claim what I have done is original, hasn't been done before or special in any way. I have spent a great deal of time on my project.

[provocating]

Originally Posted by image

It is a huge undertaking, devnoob and I personally have been reverting from a PEQ database because our original database was so old back from the early GuildWars days. We do this during/inbetween the servers we host (when people play on it) and this new rendition has been going on since about 2011. I am still fixing things to this day and some things can't be fixed sometimes without modifying the client.

A good example of 'client side' issues is the 'brown skeleton' model from classic -- you won't be able to get it working unless you do some impressive texture/model changes (or modify the client). Eg. http://i54.tinypic.com/k21ogk.jpg. Some things really come down to nitpicking of how classic it needs to be.

How much work do you want to put into it and how much time you want to learn how to do new things because if you take on a responsibility of the eqemu server by yourself you inherit the responsibilities of the code base, database and the client.

I can tell you now, with no doubt I have spent anywhere from 4~8 hours a day on just bug fixes, pathing issues, managing my server. With Legacy of FrostStone this has been the norm for the last 4 months. Sign up on my Mantis site and just looking at how many tickets I get a week, those are just the ones that people report, many issues are discussed in /ooc and I just remember it needs to be done.

I think I have been running servers for around 4 years now, it takes a lot of commitment and I think most have no idea what they are getting into. Sure you can ignore bug request from your players, but it is like the broken window philosophy.

So I am just agreeing with Image here, it is how much you want to put into it.

[AdrianD]

From a personal standpoint:

I'm not interested in running a public server. I know enough from being around here a while to understand it would take more than just me.

I'm focused on learning about all the processes involved. I believe I could contribute to a team in some way. Making a day-in, day-out commitment to one for an undefined period of time is something I cannot do. I would rather spend the time learning new things than doing the same thing over and over.

EDIT: To clarify, a team running a server and a commitment resembling a job

This does not mean I would not contribute to a goal which some could benefit from which includes doing the same thing over and over. There is a distinction.

[mgellan]

I've also spent a lot of time modifying PEQ to be more classic (in my case aiming for being completely true to the last day of Velious) but I wonder the same thing - would people contribute to a project (call it OpenClassic) where everyone works together to create an accurate Classic server, with proper source code control so the project can roll out an accurate Classic Era server version and maintain that then a Kunark version, etc. so if someone wants to create a progression server they can simply download the code and data for that version, then increment through the patches on the correct timeline etc.

Nilbog and crew have done an awesome job but it would be really nice if the code/data was open source so we didn't have a ton of people reinventing the wheel...

Regards,
Mg

[image]

I post my collection of path files on www.eqpvp.com/paths -- probably be updating it again soon once I do some run testing around the new path files I have been working on this month.

My database/code is so off base from main eqemu. Highly modified since 2011 since I run custom servers (but on the classic setting). Just coming to mind I don't even have LUA scripting in there I am still using perl, plus the loot table design was rewritten recently. I can't suggest it as a base unfortunately because its been modified for my custom server (such as a Diablo item system that lets me create items on the fly during gameplay). Just a lot of things I don't think would fall in line with classic or would want to be part of that source.

[provocating]

They will never open source p1999, can you imagine 10 of those servers? It would kill their population.

[mgellan]

Originally Posted by provocating

They will never open source p1999, can you imagine 10 of those servers? It would kill their population.

Indeed, hence the need to crowdsource something thats implicitly open source from the outset -- Mg

[AdrianD]

I'm with ya.

I can't code yet but, as mentioned, I can work a database. I am not afraid of mapping data if it's considered largely accurate. Not saying I could map it all in all circumstances or that I am some master at it, silly...

The database is a huge undertaking IF it needs to be changed from scratch (peq). But, for many of us, it's not from scratch. We've all worked on it in one form or another.

I think the biggest hurdle is getting people to loosen their iron grip on their own data. The next hurdle would be agreeing on content. The real classic pros can do this for classic. Any who have played the game can contribute here with all expansions, beautiful! It's not as hard as it seems.

The current code has quite a bit of flexibility through the `rule_values` table. (thank you to all that put their hard work on it and foresight) <--- I cannot stress this one enough

There are a lot of things that could be considered "easy" as far as coding goes. I won't be the judge of that although I know it to be true.

A few things, at least from the get go, would probably need to be accepted by a person like myself with no coding background. Some things are done as good as they can be done for an emu. Unless I bump my head and miraculously become a prodigy coder, I will (have to) accept this. I'm talking about the mechanics, of course.

Everything is there. All the long hard years of DB building and coding is in place. It is this simple; naysayers... I don't have kind words for naysayers. This goes for devil's advocates although, there is sometimes merit in what they state. I'm a devil's advocate.

[AdrianD]

Last little rah rah thing I'll say on this.

If each of us spent a teeny, tiny fraction of the time on organizing this that we did on altering our own content, do you think it would happen?

[provocating]

I would contribute if anything became of it.

[AdrianD]

Awesome, those that have more experience than me (many/most/all?) can recommend the best route to organizing (git?) and I will do my best to set it up.

If I do this, my first commit will be everything I have. (I know, it must be a lot, you're thinking) All my data, which will surprise some of you. All my sql scripts concerning building expansions <this will surprise you as well > and if more beginners need some query help, I can add some more basic searching scripts along with explanations.

Personally, I would love some critque on my scripts.

Only reason I say it may surprise you is because I'm the FNG asking all the questions.

EDIT: I didn't clarify - if those with more experience than me could suggest a good way to organize this, please, I would be grateful =)
I don't like guessing

[jpyou127]

I think this is a great idea! Accurate content that all could then build off of even if it's a custom server. That was originally the whole idea behind the emu in the beginning?