DotaQuest early development

[knowom]

DotaQuest is a server that's under going development. There is a lot of work to left to do. I'm hoping to get more underway first before a test server launch happens. A think the basis for the servers design goals and expectations itself is pretty well underway. It's still on going and being refined and expanded upon, but I think the overall foundations for it are in place in large part.

The design will be based around incorporating MOBA game play into a MMO. This is pretty much a new niche genre, but I think it's got a lot of potential to be very unique and different as result while additionally being very fun I hope. The plan is for this to become a custom pvp server with territorial faction control involved.

For the time being I've been focused on the MOBA player option diversity however. I'm taking steps to try to create and provide this. It's a on going process that's being conceived, designed, refined, and developed upon. It's a massive undertaking however because this is being developed around the idea of the scale of a MMO in mind not a MOBA.

Basically for perspective while many of the game play elements are MOBA inspired the scale of them is built a lot around the idea of a MMO game play world and as a result is a lot like if you were to take several MOBA games and conjoin them into one massive interlinked one.

I'm really hoping to get more overall interest in this project and in particular more developer support for this project eventually moving forward. If someone is interested in this project or has something to say or share on the topic of it be sure to let me know. It's a ambitious project and probably will be a awhile in the making, but I really hope it turns out well even it takes awhile to create and perfect upon the overall concept of it.

Currently the project is being developed and designed by myself and Nerdgasm, but we are defiantly looking for more folks interested in the project. We have a forums setup for the project as well over here if anyone is interested.
http://dotaquest.freeforums.org/index.php

[Maze_EQ]

Take a look at the Turn based EQ server, that guy definitely knows his shit. See if he'd be interested in co-developing a DOTA EQ server.f

[Nerdgasm]

Sorry for my absence knowom. I have been distracted by Hearthstone beta... It's a awesome game... I'm glad you made this post. . We should get with the Turn based guy, and see if he wants to get in on the DoTA quest.

I feel it would be an awesome server, and I have some of the scripts taken care of, like I told you.

[knowom]

Shin Noir made a post in the other thread about having some custom "Good vs Evil" faction system code. That's worth hearing more about it and looking into it a bit. Not sure if Shin Noir would like to became a part of the development team or not, but if so we'll got plenty of faction/deity based stuff in mind for the server itself.

I've been in the middle of working creating a basis template mold to work around and branch off and expand upon over time. It's something myself and Nerdgasm have talked a fair amount between ourselves. I think we both feel it's a nice base design to work around that we can expand in numerous different ways.

We've got many different ideas in mind for it and they can defiantly be fine tuned and improved around as we go along. I think some of the stuff we're doing should make things so that even if design isn't perfectly balanced all of the time in all aspects we can at least minimize it. I don't think any 1 template will ever be superior to every to other template. We would defiantly make changes to ensure it no longer was the case if that did happen as well.

Anyway I'll let people know more a later time when there is a bit of a update to make on development aspect of it and maybe elaborate some on the first stage of the template design itself after I finish it up. I think it would be great if the turn based EQ developer were interested in the project I'm sure he's got some great ideas on top of being a great developer from the sounds of it. I'm not sure what that server is reminiscent of final fantasy tactics or magic the gathering? I really have no idea haven't played, but those were both interesting games regardless particularly the latter.

I was actually thinking of aiming for a 5 sided faction struggle where each faction can sort of work to help themselves and another faction or conversely betray each other. The details of it all defiantly would require a lot more thought put into it all to come up with something balanced fun and workable.

[Kayen]

I am the EQ Tactics 'Turned Based EQ' server guy... It is my little side project. http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/sho...hlight=tactics

Since I see my name being tossed around in this thread thought I would share some thoughts since I am always happy to see new excited developers.

Your project is ambitious, as a MOBA fan I had considered something similar a while back but my ultimate conclusion was it would be too difficult under the restraints of the Everquest game engine. MOBA's are all built in modified RTS engines which are a much better platform for that type of game play. There are numerous other significant challenges beyond that as well.

However, that in no way implies it can not or should not be done.

Creating a large scale complex server from scratch is very overwhelming and why most don't get off the ground.

Here is your free consultation.

My recommendation would be before you do anything else is to create a single demo zone to simulate a basic PvP MOBA environment.

Have two opposing factions of NPC units that are trying to reach the other side. Set up a system for towers/inhibitors.

Heroes/Champions do not need to be really fleshed out at this point just have a few basic builds set up to test the game play.

Extensively play test the zone till you feel satisfied that the concept will work.

That way you can see if the basic frame work is viable to scale up.

Anyways that is how I would approach this.

Kayen
GM Storm Haven
GM EQ Tactics

[Nerdgasm]

Originally Posted by Kayen

I am the EQ Tactics 'Turned Based EQ' server guy... It is my little side project. http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/sho...hlight=tactics

Since I see my name being tossed around in this thread thought I would share some thoughts since I am always happy to see new excited developers.

Your project is ambitious, as a MOBA fan I had considered something similar a while back but my ultimate conclusion was it would be too difficult under the restraints of the Everquest game engine. MOBA's are all built in modified RTS engines which are a much better platform for that type of game play. There are numerous other significant challenges beyond that as well.

However, that in no way implies it can not or should not be done.

Creating a large scale complex server from scratch is very overwhelming and why most don't get off the ground.

Here is your free consultation.

My recommendation would be before you do anything else is to create a single demo zone to simulate a basic PvP MOBA environment.

Have two opposing factions of NPC units that are trying to reach the other side. Set up a system for towers/inhibitors.

Heroes/Champions do not need to be really fleshed out at this point just have a few basic builds set up to test the game play.

Extensively play test the zone till you feel satisfied that the concept will work.

That way you can see if the basic frame work is viable to scale up.

Anyways that is how I would approach this.

Kayen
GM Storm Haven
GM EQ Tactics

Thanks you for responding to our forum, Kayen.

That was our plan, we are FAR from even thinking of an Alpha realize. Like, FAR FAR FAR from it. This is the VERY early DEV stages.

Setting up the first zone is going to be a pretty fun little game. As we've spoken about in our other forums, the tower//inhib would be more directed towards a boss instead of a actual tower, or nexus.

The problem would be the faction versus faction type set up. That is where we are snagged, and is where we thought of a World PvP idea, you know whoever killed the base gets their name on the 'who controls it' for the first two hours, or for the two hours in general, the script would be pretty simple to set up for if the tower dies the item goes to the other person.

However if you know how to do a faction based PvP system. I'd love to get with you and 'pick your brain' so to speak.

[knowom]

Originally Posted by Nerdgasm

Thanks you for responding to our forum, Kayen.

That was our plan, we are FAR from even thinking of an Alpha realize. Like, FAR FAR FAR from it. This is the VERY early DEV stages.

Setting up the first zone is going to be a pretty fun little game. As we've spoken about in our other forums, the tower//inhib would be more directed towards a boss instead of a actual tower, or nexus.

The problem would be the faction versus faction type set up. That is where we are snagged, and is where we thought of a World PvP idea, you know whoever killed the base gets their name on the 'who controls it' for the first two hours, or for the two hours in general, the script would be pretty simple to set up for if the tower dies the item goes to the other person.

However if you know how to do a faction based PvP system. I'd love to get with you and 'pick your brain' so to speak.

Actually I believe we can use certain objects to represent towers/inhibitors/nexus's that could have HP you need to destroy. I noticed in the race's section there are quite a few object type graphics mixed in they'd be rooted in place like we had mentioned. Here's a couple examples that you can check out if you want in EoC sometime in the race view area.

Tower Model (32eight) (this could be a tower naturally)
Portal (329) (this could work as inhibitors stargate style gateways and it would probably look cool)
Mimic (52) (this was a actual mob, but it could still be used for a nexus if we wanted)
PoM Castle (252) (no idea how this looks in game or how massive it is, but it's a castle might work as nexus at least if we can size it)
Chest (37eight) (another chest variation Nexus)
Coffin (3eight2) (this could work as a form of a inhibitor)
Runed Orb (422) (Nexus perhaps)
Dragorn Box (421) Nexus perhaps)
Portal (426) (inhibitor)
Crystal Shard (425) (Tower perhaps, but would probably want to scale the size larger)
Dragon Egg (445) (Nexus really like the looks of this one)
Grandfather Clock (665) (Tower)

There are defiantly a few others as well to pick from, but they are in the race section so they'd work well and would fit pretty well also. These would probably be my top choices.

Dragon Egg (445) - Nexus
Portal (426) - Inhibitor
Tower Model (32eight) or Grandfather Clock (665) - Tower

[lerxst2112]

Originally Posted by Kayen

Your project is ambitious, as a MOBA fan I had considered something similar a while back but my ultimate conclusion was it would be too difficult under the restraints of the Everquest game engine. MOBA's are all built in modified RTS engines which are a much better platform for that type of game play. There are numerous other significant challenges beyond that as well.

LOL's engine is actually a lot more like a MMO or FPS than a RTS although it's really hard to broadly classify engines like that. Having worked on several of each type of game the engines are really similar.

That said the big problems I see with using the EQemu code are the PVP aspect and how to manage creeps. I'd probably start by drastically simplifying the combat code so anything could attack anything and then adding the team based aspect to that. For creeps, leashing, changing how hate works, and handling kills differently seem to be the big things.

That said, you're going to have a tough time since you can't change the client. No locked camera, fog of war, or click to move/attack will keep you from completely recreating something really close to a MOBA, but with effort you should be able to make something fun and unique.

[knowom]

Originally Posted by lerxst2112

LOL's engine is actually a lot more like a MMO or FPS than a RTS although it's really hard to broadly classify engines like that. Having worked on several of each type of game the engines are really similar.

That said the big problems I see with using the EQemu code are the PVP aspect and how to manage creeps. I'd probably start by drastically simplifying the combat code so anything could attack anything and then adding the team based aspect to that. For creeps, leashing, changing how hate works, and handling kills differently seem to be the big things.

That said, you're going to have a tough time since you can't change the client. No locked camera, fog of war, or click to move/attack will keep you from completely recreating something really close to a MOBA, but with effort you should be able to make something fun and unique.

That's actually essentially what myself and Nerdgasm discussed in regards to the PVP aspect. EQ PVP is a bit complicated in part because it was really designed around PVE with PVP a afterthought by Sony. This isn't to say it can't be better balanced, but more that it just generally wasn't well balanced compared to newer MMO's by default. Some of those aspects you mentioned we've been discussing and could pose problems that will need workarounds and compromises. It's won't be 100% like a MOBA in all aspects and really I can't say it was intended to be strictly speaking. It's also meant to still be a MMO and the core of it really is intended to feel like a MMO in mind, but with MOBA game elements in mind that enhance and add new game play mechanics to a MMO.

A lot of the designing for this server we intend to start off rather bare basics and build variety and complexity to it as we go. There are a lot of reasons for approaching it this way. It'll take time to implement everything on such a large scale is one major reason for it. Another is that we can do a better job to maintain and correct balance better if we start off by making smaller changes as we move along. We'd love to provide a lot of variety and complexity, but we're going to try to build and design it steps at a time. Before we start particular portions of development we hash it over a fair amount until we are content with it enough to move forward.

I think if the PVP aspects doesn't pan out it could turn into some sort of a strategic multi-faction based PVE tug of war type thing. The whole escort quests idea could be done on a mass scale around the idea of inhibitor spawns and nexus's that factions try to overtake and control to unlock and gain access to area's. On top of that factions quest could be mixed into the element and it could even be done in dynamic bipartisan inter-related ways between factions. The quests might have some type of auto balancing routines integrated into them and impact opposing factions. It would be neat to in sort of a NBA draft lottery type of randomization way.

Just using inhibitor spawns, nexus spawns, and towers in a zone with zombies for example to create sort of a walking dead type of scenario environment could be a whole lot of fun. Naturally a lot more could be done outside of that like a Lycan vs Vampire power struggle where players could pick a side to help. Plenty of different stuff could be done utilizing inhibitor, tower, and nexus game elements within the context of a MMO.

If we can keep it pretty authentic to the way most MOBA's work great if we need to adapt it to work for EQ that's something we'll need to figure out, but it's not like there aren't options on the table for stuff that could be done. I feel it's worth perusing keeping in mind all the different options and directions it could go despite obstacles that could pose troublesome.

[Shin Noir]

What map are you thinking of putting the MOBA demo on? Know a symmetrical one?

I haven't delved deep into my old GvE code, but I had it set up so that any "evil" players always had red tags, and any "good" players had normal tags -- the red tags were the same as people who put their books of discord in. So at a glance you could tell team.

[knowom]

Really a lot of wide open zones could be made to use and are fairly symmetrical particularly depending on just how much of the map is used is used for the purpose. I think in certain cases the inhibitor, tower, and nexus thing could be done more for a siege and pillaging thing to a city or area controlled or currently controlled by opposing factions.

A bunch of maps are reasonably symmetric. We haven't really picked out a particular demo map yet unless Nerdgasm has one he's been using for his scripts that he felt was good. We did discuss probably utilizing a bunch of the planer zones though. I feel too much emphasis on the symmetry concern is almost like nitpicking that could do more overall damage than good to the project. Like I'd like to make it so a lot of territory is completely up for grabs.

I know symmetry is sort of beyond our control and won't be so perfectly balanced liked a legitimate RTS or MOBA where the maps themselves were designed around that aspect in mind. I don't see this as a horrible thing though looking at historic battles as a example. If you look at past fought wars throughout history the landscape played a important part in shaping history as too alliances that were formed and broken. I'd actually prefer more of those aspects than worrying about symmetry and it being more simple and straight forward Faction A vs Faction B scenario.

I see a lot of potential to craft this into a complex, strategic, fun, and socially dynamic type of game environment personally and some of that involves straying a bit from conventional wisdom and thinking outside the box a little. It's meant to be MOBA inspired and I think the use of towers, inhibitors, and nexus along with template variation uniqueness will largely achieve just that. It's also a MMO as well though and needs to be kept in context. Anyway here's a list of maps with a fair amount of symmetry some are more symmetric and less symmetric than others though, but I don't see why that always has to be a bad thing.

NEKTULOS FOREST
Northern Desert of Ro
SOUTHERN DESERT OF RO
OASIS OF MARR
QEYNOS HILLS
NORTHERN PLAINS OF KARANA
EASTERN PLAINS OF KARANA
SOUTHERN PLAINS OF KARANA
WESTERN PLAINS OF KARANA
EAST COMMONLANDS
WEST COMMONLANDS
THE Feerrott
INNOTHULE SWAMP
JAGGEDPINE FOREST
KITHICOR FOREST
LAVASTORM MOUNTAINS
MISTY THICKET
GREATER FAYDARK
LESSER FAYDARK
PLANE OF FEAR
PLANE OF GROWTH
PLANE OF DISEASE
Plane of Tranquility
PLANE OF HATE (there is some symmetry, but it's a bit all over the place due to the buildings though this could actually make it interesting)
BASTION OF THUNDER (portions of this could be setup to work, but it would be more ARAM style where everyone fights in the same lane which is a really fun challenging variation.)
CRYPT OF TERRIS THULE (another perfect ARAM style map)
PLANE OF TACTICS (parts of this could work great for ARAM)
DAGNOR'S CAULDRON (has some interesting symmetry going on)
HIGHPASS HOLD (a bit less overall perfect symmetry)
ERYSLAI, KINGDOM OF WIND (parts of this good amounts of symmetry)
The Arena (A better map for more of a bloodline champions sort of thing)
Plane of Justice (a good dosage of symmetry in parts of this map)
PLANE OF KNOWLEDGE (smaller in size, but a decent dosage of symmetry)
CRYPT OF DECAY (good symmetry in the lower depths)
SOLUSEK RO'S TOWER (has some great symmetry, but would need to set a guided path players would need to follow and not stray from)
SHAR VAHL (UPPER) (this could be neat for ARAM)
SANCTUS SERU (a lot of symmetry, but would probably require a fair amount of customizing on the overall setup)
THE NEXUS (this could be nice for like a 4 sided faction tower defense king of the hill type of thing perhaps)

[Nerdgasm]

There's plenty of zones we could make into a 'test' zone per say, and yes as much as those who turn in their discord books are red, that's because of their PVP flag, if we made it world PVP but detect your team that way, it still wouldn't work, because once you're flagged for PvP ANYONE can target you, that is the problem we've come across. :P

[Kayen]

Originally Posted by Nerdgasm

There's plenty of zones we could make into a 'test' zone per say, and yes as much as those who turn in their discord books are red, that's because of their PVP flag, if we made it world PVP but detect your team that way, it still wouldn't work, because once you're flagged for PvP ANYONE can target you, that is the problem we've come across. :P

You will probably have to do some source code editing to accomplish the team PvP aspect but it is certainly do able. Though, I don't know off hand exactly how much work would be involved.

[Shin Noir]

Yep. I accomplished my GvE system by hacking source. I'm just using the Discord red as an example of what packets I was sending to clients. Now to find that source.

[knowom]

Originally Posted by Kayen

You will probably have to do some source code editing to accomplish the team PvP aspect but it is certainly do able. Though, I don't know off hand exactly how much work would be involved.

Team PVP existed on EQ live on Tallon Zek here's a bunch of screenshots of that.

http://www.drawdesign.se/temp/everquest/

Anyway I don't see why we can't set it up in this same way. It seemed reasonable enough to me. Apparently there have been a few EQemu servers around the Tallon Zek idea scheme as well.