Population

[sunbeam]

Originally Posted by ChaosSlayerZ

What I want from EMu is a server where SOlO exists for ALL classes, but groups/raids also exists, and no bots/boxes are allowed.

This would allow server to be acceptable to casual solo players, and when their number builds up - they could potentially form up pick groups or even guilds to take on harder tasks. It is OK not to make ALL content solo-able - let there be hard encounters that REQUIRE a full group (or hek even 2 for super boss fights) - yes you can't do this solo, so persuade others to join in!

I've come to think that the problem is, at least up through PoP (which is where both the content and the player interest stops really), the problem is the inordinate amount of hp's on the raid mobs.

Look a good group can do LOTS of things. Find a way to get through Ssra Temple, kill past the butterflies in Temple of Veeshan (and deal with those roaming assassins that seem to sneak up on you as adds).

But then you hit the crazy hp's on the raid mobs you started to see in Velious.

A C-Heal chain is just not a viable thing to require for progression (and this among other things is a loot based game; you need the loot to progress).

Really Kunark is doable without adjusting too many things. There is a lot more knowledge out there, and the techniques are all worked out.

It's when you start hitting Vulak, Avatar, and all the rest that it becomes totally unworkable.

How many people did it take to do Lord Bob (you know Doljon-whatever in Velk's) back in the day? Think he is only around 100,000 hp's with some buddies to make it harder. If you have to have more than that, it's not happening.

Then there are the things like PoSky (the deathtouching mobs). You know that that zone was never soloed till people could eat those deathtouches in some fashion? Just saying that zone was never soloed till after the Avatar of War could be soloed in game.

If you need PoSky for a quest piece (like some epics, notably the mage one), you really have to have a lot, like 40 people at least to do it if the zone is like live. And people are going to die every 18 seconds or whatever, actually the youtube videos I've seen have it timed "death touch incoming, 5-4-3-2- Buffy is down, drag her corpse and have Beerswill click her back... deathtouch in 10 seconds..."

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by sunbeam

Look a good group can do LOTS of things. Find a way to get through Ssra Temple, kill past the butterflies in Temple of Veeshan (and deal with those roaming assassins that seem to sneak up on you as adds).

But then you hit the crazy hp's on the raid mobs you started to see in Velious.

Well essentially - you can't just take stock EQ DB adjust a few numbers and call it a new server - the ENTIRE WORLD has to be re-done from scratch
So lev 61 mob in Velious is NOT 4x times stronger than lev 60 mob in Kunark, but smoothly progresses to be slightly harder

Heck if anything the combat engine needs to be rewritten to be more straight forward rather than try to emulate LIFE's weird pre and post 40/50/60 difficulty spikes, hard/soft stat caps etc.

And yeah, DT fights were the stupidest of the all - it was essentially a challenge only to bring shit load of people to survive them, with no chance to play around them.
Good things they dropped this crap in all following expansions.

[The_Beast]

Originally Posted by Mistmaker

fit those that have a family

Just for the sake of topic, I am not really sure I understand the difference between "yesterday's" family man/woman playing EQ and today's family player.
I noticed some of today's players make an implication, that all the people who played everquest back when it came out, were "alleged" single young people
with not much RL responsibility, allowing them the time to play that regular Everquest grind back then. But people like myself and many others I knew,
we already had a wife, kids and full time job when Everquest was released in 1999. No, we couldn't spend 3-4 hours a day, but I never spent that much
time on any game, even when I was single and care free. The original Everquest was definately not a game setup for impatient players. It wasn't a deal where
you would eventually see "Game Over". Somedays, I had just enough time to login and add 100 plat to my bank and logout, then go watch a movie with my
wife. There was always tomorrow.

[Mistmaker]

I have played many games that are not fit to play and have a family (kids etc) if you wish to advance past group/solo items. These are the ones where your 100% attention is needed during the raid or even just to stay alive. Back in 99 (if you raided at all) you even had guilds that would kick you out of the guild if you were not fully devoted to what was happening during the raid. WoW was extreme for this and and I also know EQ2 was too.

I don't think the game was designed for family back then. Could you think of playing EQ with your 7 year old? After his first CR he would never play again. Today I play with mine on Asgard, because all those game frustrations I removed. I think today's family player also has kids that they involve. That was rare to see back in 99.

The EQemu servers I think would be more difficult to play if you have a family are the ones that I had problems playing. So from my experience with 4 kids and 3 dogs anything that requires me to play an FD class like P99 I found to be difficult. I would also say anything that requires me to play a box team like EZServer would also be difficult.

So server fit for family would be IMHO those that dont require you to run a large box team and those that you can include your kids. If you wish to play on p99 make sure to apply for that IP exemption and then watch your kids fight over who gets to play when you only get 1 extra for access.

I speak from my own personal experiences and others may have a different experience so just telling it how it has been for me. Back in 99 i was married and had a child then too so again I'm talking from my experiences.

Originally Posted by The_Beast

Just for the sake of topic, I am not really sure I understand the difference between "yesterday's" family man/woman playing EQ and today's family player.
I noticed some of today's players make an implication, that all the people who played everquest back when it came out, were "alleged" single young people
with not much RL responsibility, allowing them the time to play that regular Everquest grind back then. But people like myself and many others I knew,
we already had a wife, kids and full time job when Everquest was released in 1999. No, we couldn't spend 3-4 hours a day, but I never spent that much
time on any game, even when I was single and care free. The original Everquest was definately not a game setup for impatient players. It wasn't a deal where
you would eventually see "Game Over". Somedays, I had just enough time to login and add 100 plat to my bank and logout, then go watch a movie with my
wife. There was always tomorrow.

[sunbeam]

Originally Posted by Mistmaker

I have played many games that are not fit to play and have a family (kids etc) if you wish to advance past group/solo items. These are the ones where your 100% attention is needed during the raid or even just to stay alive. Back in 99 (if you raided at all) you even had guilds that would kick you out of the guild if you were not fully devoted to what was happening during the raid. WoW was extreme for this and and I also know EQ2 was too.

I don't think the game was designed for family back then. Could you think of playing EQ with your 7 year old? After his first CR he would never play again. Today I play with mine on Asgard, because all those game frustrations I removed. I think today's family player also has kids that they involve. That was rare to see back in 99.

The EQemu servers I think would be more difficult to play if you have a family are the ones that I had problems playing. So from my experience with 4 kids and 3 dogs anything that requires me to play an FD class like P99 I found to be difficult. I would also say anything that requires me to play a box team like EZServer would also be difficult.

So server fit for family would be IMHO those that dont require you to run a large box team and those that you can include your kids. If you wish to play on p99 make sure to apply for that IP exemption and then watch your kids fight over who gets to play when you only get 1 extra for access.

I speak from my own personal experiences and others may have a different experience so just telling it how it has been for me. Back in 99 i was married and had a child then too so again I'm talking from my experiences.

To go along with this, how many of us in this EMU community are totally new players, as opposed to people who played in the past on live?

I'd go a little further than that, and say most of us started sometime between launch and PoP.

This game is getting to be 18 years old. The graphics alone are a hard sell to new players. I know I've showed it to my nephews, and they are pretty meh about it (though they like Dwarven Fortress, go figure).

But what you can and are willing to do as a high school or college student, and what you can or are willing to do when you have a full time job and a kid are different things.

I know some of the "OG" players had families and stuff. But come on, if you were in one of the famous raiding guilds like Legacy of Steel, Afterlife, FoH, I really can't see that going well with a family situation.

Yeah, you can focus on being in the Complete Heal chain when your wife yells at you "Ok Gary, you are changing the diaper THIS time."

Cause yelling back "No can do Hon. It will take another 30 minutes or so for this mob. Thanks for understanding!" might just be a bad move.

You know writing that... I wonder if EQ has ever been used in a divorce proceeding? I can totally see it actually:

"Your Honor he neglected his family because he spent forty plus hours a week playing a fantasy game. The man might as well have not been in the household. Instead he was... let me look at this...'summoning mod rods and dropping them on the ground'...for the benefit of other people also playing this imaginary game, whom he has actually never met in person. Leaving his wife to assume total responsibility for the care of their child.

Additionally your honor, my client fears for the health and well being of little Ralph should his father gain custody of the child. She worries that instead of spending the time to cook a nutritious meal for the both of them, he will instead give Ralph a bag of Cheetos and a Mountain Dew, as that is apparently all he eats if left to his own devices.

Now I might also bring to your Honor's attention this matter of the 'poopsock'..."

[The_Beast]

Well back when the "family man" played EQ, it wasn't much different than someone having, for example, a hot rod project in the garage that he worked on whenever he had time.
My wife, kids and I would spend time together as a family, sometimes the wife would spend one on one time with the kids and times I would spend "daddy time" with the kids. Any
hours I spent on EQ was strictly when the wife and kids were busy, or sleeping. Right from day one, it was always difficult for a guild to have enough on for a raid, I soloed, I grouped
and had the odd opportunity to go on a raid once in awhile. I just did whatever was feasible at the time. A family lifestyle doesn't really prevent you from doing anything in the
game, it would just take a lot longer to accomplish things you want to do. It can take many more months and lots of patience, while keeping RL responsibilities a priority. I never
climbed on to play any computer game when my wife and kids were awake and/or in my presence. But I wasn't in one of those relationships where the "couple" spends 24/7 together.
We gave each other our own space, and what we did in that space was an individual preference. Some used it in the garage, others were in a sports bar with his buddies and
some, well, we were playing EQ. At one point, we had a Thursday night ritual where 5 of us got together in a room every Thusday night we had setup with our towers and have a
"gaming night" The wife and kids were doing their own thing at a friend's house, doing girly things

[kokey98]

i knew one person who nearly lost his wife over eq within 2-3 years of launch.

he made the right choice and barely played after that. i knew a bunch of people that got burned out... same stuff happens with wow, too. they play less and less after each time they take a hiatus.

the game is a time sink, and the way it was made early on you had to play 12 hours a day to be as good as the 'best' players. an emu offers an ability to change that and many like that idea.

i think the perceptions in this forum are a result of group think at times in regard to how people play or what they want. realize a majority of people do not contribute on the forums... you have no idea what the masses think by reading forums that only 10% (more likely less) of people are a part of. forums require a particular personality to keep up on them... i've lurked around here for more than 10years and i've psoted more in the last couple months than the previous 9 years together.

you can see the servers (standard) that are successful are the ones operated with some consistency and can keep it online for years to come. certain server-owners pop up on occasion and consistently flake out -- more power to them, but i'm glad when someone points it out -- although they should learn to be less of an a@@ when doing it (i think a request from forum operators was in response to this - telling us to play nice(r) etc).

you'll also notice the only successful standard ones also do something to make the game a bit more solo-friendly (solo includes boxers, too).

once they start flip-flopping with rules, i typically leave.. it's a bad omen. likely a teen-ager who keeps seeing greener pastures instead of developing the one he's currently in (or she, i grew up when "he" is grammatically correct for both genders).. or worse they have conflicting goals and behaviours - i gues that could fall under flakiness.

standard servers:

-got plenty of boxer servers that are more of the same from preffered and legends

-got vog and nag lair that are more solo friendly... one has some custome progression, one is more 'legit' for a lack of a better word.

there's a bot server here and there, but they aren't as well put togoether as vog or nag lair... you either get high-end gear at level one or it's 1-swing and move to next npc etc... there's no middle ground with bot-servers, yet.

despite the commonn resonse you see in teh forums.. .there are not "many" bot servers... most are too easy or a complete mess or are simply inconsistent (you choose a way).

i'd like one closer to vog/nag lair type difficulty. i also don't want to take 3 months to get upto level - that's the easy part that has nothign to do with the actual game - pure time sink. i want to spend time gathering useful gear, and gradually working way up to more difficult end-game stuff. i've been dinking around with one on my pc, so maybe i'll jsut make it as i want, but that will take a very long time relative to what i can invest each day.

so, there really isn't a middle-road bot server... they are more like god-servers since you just mow stuff down. I'd probably liek imperium or raid addicts but i don't want a 1-85 or 1-100 server. so many levels is silly and plenty of other ways to accomplish whatever goal was the impetus such a large quantity. i want the end-game stuff to be slow and require better gear etc etc.. getting there isn't fun for me... i've deen it 1000 times between wow and eq... at this point it's the worst part of the game for me, lol.

---

even the more solo-friendly ones commonly say - but you'll have to group up for bigger stuff... but if i only have a few opportunties to group with someone and it's required to do important things on that server, then i'm very likely to quit logging in since i can't do anythign on my schedule... i have to hope some others are available and more importantly interested in helping (and vice versa).

on the other side... if i have 1 hour to play, i don't want to go sit around killing 1 npc for someone i don't know.. and i understand it's the same from their perspective, too.

most mmo'ers do have some sort of anti-social problem - whether it's mild or severe, it is there. Just google Nick Burns SNL IT guy -- that's a typicall mmo-er (from 18 years of experience with them, lol). it's like a game show when you group up, lol. "please, no whammies, no whammies, stop!" whaaa-whaaa, you lose.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by kokey98

even the more solo-friendly ones commonly say - but you'll have to group up for bigger stuff... but if i only have a few opportunties to group with someone and it's required to do important things on that server, then i'm very likely to quit logging in since i can't do anythign on my schedule... i have to hope some others are available and more importantly interested in helping (and vice versa).

on the other side... if i have 1 hour to play, i don't want to go sit around killing 1 npc for someone i don't know.. and i understand it's the same from their perspective, too.
.

Well the quest/raiding system doesn't need to be set up this way where it takes 40+ people 2-4 hours to kill a mob that drops nothing but just 1 epic quest part for 1 person. The fact that it was this way on LIFE doesn't mean it has to be.

So log in as a solo player for your 1 hour - and do your solo thing.
If you happen to stumble upon a pick group/raid - you do that, get something out of it and log off.

[kokey98]

Originally Posted by ChaosSlayerZ

Well the quest/raiding system doesn't need to be set up this way where it takes 40+ people 2-4 hours to kill a mob that drops nothing but just 1 epic quest part for 1 person. The fact that it was this way on LIFE doesn't mean it has to be.

So log in as a solo player for your 1 hour - and do your solo thing.
If you happen to stumble upon a pick group/raid - you do that, get something out of it and log off.

but, that's kind of the point i was making. you can only do your solo thing for so long before you cannot improve your character on your own. at that point if the server has no population... it's more like log in, can't accomplish what needs to be done, and then log out and do other things.

the only thing i meant to convey in that paragraph is it is a logical contradiction to make a solo server that requires groups for the important stuff. finding couple people is no different than finding 40 if they do not exist or are not common enough to rely on being there. some servers do the 2-3 people needed and if they average ~15-20 players i bet they can get away with it. let the course of the server dictate, not try to forcfe somethign that's not possible except in a dream.

(again we each have our own lives... it's not obligatory that the one other person who logs in helps me or i him. the comment about hte hour, or limited time available, was because i like to play a video game for that hour, not don't play a video game for an hour.)

[Mistmaker]

I think 15-20 is extreme. We average maybe 3 level 70s on during peak hours and those players have no problem doing the 2-3 player raid content on our server that averages 5 players online.

I think a lot of people have difficulty coming out of their comfort zone and reaching out to others to either help them advance or group with them to do the content available. They come online with a goal that they are going to do A, B, C then logoff or they have been on a bunch of other servers with a "partner" and choose not to contact anyone else to include them in their comfortable group. So if your not able to make that 70 group why not help that level 68?

I think many players think they have no time so they can only do certain things while online. I think this is an excuse to not reach out to others. If you look at how much time those people that say they don't have time are really online doing A, B, C, ...SOLO... they could have spent 2 minutes reaching out to others and doing content together with someone else.

Originally Posted by kokey98

but, that's kind of the point i was making. you can only do your solo thing for so long before you cannot improve your character on your own. at that point if the server has no population... it's more like log in, can't accomplish what needs to be done, and then log out and do other things.

the only thing i meant to convey in that paragraph is it is a logical contradiction to make a solo server that requires groups for the important stuff. finding couple people is no different than finding 40 if they do not exist or are not common enough to rely on being there. some servers do the 2-3 people needed and if they average ~15-20 players i bet they can get away with it. let the course of the server dictate, not try to forcfe somethign that's not possible except in a dream.

(again we each have our own lives... it's not obligatory that the one other person who logs in helps me or i him. the comment about hte hour, or limited time available, was because i like to play a video game for that hour, not don't play a video game for an hour.)

[The_Beast]

Originally Posted by Mistmaker

I think a lot of people have difficulty coming out of their comfort zone and reaching out to others

I have played on a server in the past that, at that time, had 23 players on, but none of them had any interest in grouping together. It almost seems, more and
more these days, it's not really about "time to play", it's more about people just wanting to do their own thing. I am even convinced that population no longer
plays a factor, or creates a hurdle in someone wanting to actually group. The desire for it has begun to dissolve and that /LFG tag will eventually become obsolete.

[tdanger84]

tune server for 6 man(properly geared) group and allow bots. players who want to solo can use bots, players who want to group can drop some bots in favor of their friends. everyone gets to do what they want, everyone's happy. why does it have to be one way or the other? restrict IP and take out raids so no one can make multiple groups or box if you want to prevent steamrolling.


if you want, toss in some OPTIONAL world bosses(yes I took that idea from your server Mistmaker =p ) with cool fluff items like cosmetic stuff, graphics, mounts, auras, whatever and let the people who want to group take them but the solo player wouldn't need them in order to progress.

grouping with real people should give you an extra edge, not create a minimum standard. example, a solo player of max level, lets say 70 in this case, should be able to take out whatever the max level boss is in that world, but a couple real players grouped can do it at 65 with slightly less gear. ALL players who want to play can do so in the way they like, the people who group just have an edge over the solos

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by kokey98

but, that's kind of the point i was making. you can only do your solo thing for so long before you cannot improve your character on your own. at that point if the server has no population... it's more like log in, can't accomplish what needs to be done, and then log out and do other things.

the only thing i meant to convey in that paragraph is it is a logical contradiction to make a solo server that requires groups for the important stuff. finding couple people is no different than finding 40 if they do not exist or are not common enough to rely on being there. some servers do the 2-3 people needed and if they average ~15-20 players i bet they can get away with it. let the course of the server dictate, not try to forcfe somethign that's not possible except in a dream.

Well then how about look at it this way - server has 3 different progression lines: for soloers, for groupers and for raiders - and each type of players follows his own goals. So all your important staff as soloer - is solo
If you want move on to group thing - then you no longer on a solo path and requirements are different.

[kokey98]

Originally Posted by Mistmaker

I think 15-20 is extreme. We average maybe 3 level 70s on during peak hours and those players have no problem doing the 2-3 player raid content on our server that averages 5 players online.

I think a lot of people have difficulty coming out of their comfort zone and reaching out to others to either help them advance or group with them to do the content available. They come online with a goal that they are going to do A, B, C then logoff or they have been on a bunch of other servers with a "partner" and choose not to contact anyone else to include them in their comfortable group. So if your not able to make that 70 group why not help that level 68?

I think many players think they have no time so they can only do certain things while online. I think this is an excuse to not reach out to others. If you look at how much time those people that say they don't have time are really online doing A, B, C, ...SOLO... they could have spent 2 minutes reaching out to others and doing content together with someone else.

to the previous couple posts:

i'm open to trying anything that is inclusive - and speaking more in a generalized tone than a request for a new server.

I don't think there's 1 right way... and i am not criticizing different opinions of how to play the game either.

i'm actually enjoying one of the bot enabled servers right now. i ahve to kill to get gear, i don't level too fast but i'm not wallowing in the low levels for weeks or months etc... my only concern now is whether the perosn will keep it up for a long period of time :p

i know i can't get all of what i want when looking through the server list, but this one hits alot of the marks, so far. anytime i speak of an "ideal" it's not expected to be reached.

-----

i wrote this before the 2 previous posts or so... fyi.

i have no idea what the best "way" is. and that's relative to each individual owner's goal, too. regardless of that, some ways will be more likely to succed than others no matter what their goal is nor how much time they sink into it... a realistic perspective of all important factors is key.

who is playing? how often? how do they play? etc etc.. what proportions blah blah blah. most server configs simply aren't viable to play as they are set up ignoring the realities and repercussions of the answers to these questions, and those are the ones that cannot and will not last. (in addition to the more mundane sutff that's required to keep it running.. $$$/time etc..)

too often the theories discussed in this type of thread don't match reality :p you can want a certain type of server, but if the players aren't there it's a pipe dream. is 15-20 enough or too high for a threshold? i won't argue for or against that logic.. it's a # pulled out of the ether. although, i'm 99.9% certain a handful of random players cannot make anything but a solo server viable.

there's no one type of player. the players that play tons of hours will always be a different beast than those that play fewer. some group, some don't.. how it's setup won't change their preference. they can either co-exist with the others that play on that particular server or they cannot (ie likely won't play there anymore).

so, there's no right answer, therefore the most open and inclusive option is probably the best answer for long-term success. having more players around is better, even if some don't group much. despite how some feel about it... not wanting to group is not a contagious disease... it's not communicable. there are numerous other ways those types of player can contribute to the server. the more people involved, the more options available, the more likley people enjoy it.

I think incredibly silly stuff gets in the way of rational thought on this subject. this mostly applies to the players, but you see some militant stances from random server owner too.

e.g i don't get why if some don't like <insert whatever>, then they don't want others using it?

that's petty any way you slice it. only on a populated server would people step on other's toes, so it's mostly inconsequential how the next person plays the game. therefore, it's purely an emotional response, if there is no other rational cause for it. if there is a cause, then it doesn't fit this example.

e.g. i don't like boxing more than a few, but i don't get jealous about a guy boxing 50 toons. i'm a little jealous of what's required to run 50 toons, i mustl admit! but, that has nothign to do with "me/you" playing the game of EQ.

you could argue, well he just runs things over then i can't hunt there... well, with only a handful of people playing, you have many other options to choose from. if it's "The" npc of the last expansion available (or similar situation to context), that's always a bottle-neck without instancing. so no different, regardless. instad of thinking it through, people stop at ... "i wanted that ice cream! <cries>" ... "and my favorite cookie, which is just laying freely over there within reach isn't good enough!"

[Albator]

"e.g i don't get why if some don't like <insert whatever>, then they don't want others using it?"

Its the whole reason people play an mmo. Because everyone is on an equal playing field. If the playing field isn't equal then its broken. Its like a pacman top 10 scoreboard where some people are playing with an xbox controller and others are playing with an atari controller. There should be different scoreboards for people playing with one controller vs the other. In the same way there should be different servers for people playing EQ with one ruleset verses another.