EQClassic's Source Code

[Rogean]

Originally Posted by Yeahlight@EQC

They could have a server up and running with our work in about an hour and this is something I would really like to avoid.

Theres no way in hell SOE would ever use even a portion of an emulator code for one of their own servers.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

LOL yeah.
Its like Microsoft buying code from someone who created home-made replica of Win 3.1 =)

[trevius]

Yeah, if anything, it is the opposite of what you may think as far as SOE is concerned.

I am sure SOE is at least as organized as PEQ is in that they should have every single revision of Server Code they have ever created as well as every version of the Database they have ever ran. In addition, I am sure they have backups of the source for every Client version they have ever built, which is one up on what we have.

Even if they didn't have access to that stuff for some odd reason (who knows, it is SOE afterall lol), I am 100% certain they would never use an EQEmu based source code to run any of their servers. Even at our best, we would still never have everything 100% functional and set perfectly as they could do easily given that they have direct access to the their own code, formulas, database, and so-on. So, I think SOE would have very little if nothing to gain from EQC.

You mentioned them not having anything to gain from EQEmu due to it mirroring Live, but that isn't really true either. Even though one of the main goals of the EQEmu project is to be able to emulate EQLive, that is not the only thing we allow in our source. We have many customized features that SOE could implement to improve EQLive right now. I think it is commonly accepted that the relatively new Merc system on EQLive is a derivative of the BOT system from EQEmu, since we had them first.

We have quite a few nice features that I think EQLive could make nice use of. I will be laughing if I ever see Say Links in EQLive as that will be 100% proof that they follow our work. But their are quite a few other great features like armor tinting for NPCs from the database (vs having to equip items on them), tons of special script commands, and even dozens of awesome ideas from the custom servers out there for content, rewards, and events.

I think SOE would be missing out on utilizing a nice resource if they aren't taking advantage of seeing what EQEmu and the servers here have to offer. Personally, I bet that is one of the reasons why they haven't pushed to shut down EQEmu servers in quite a while; they realize that they have more to gain from it than they have to lose. At least that is what I hope :P They essentially have a huge team of dozens of people all doing creative work for them free of charge!

[joligario]

Originally Posted by Rogean

Theres no way in hell SOE would ever use even a portion of an emulator code for one of their own servers.

No, but they have been known to take "ideas" from MQ2 and others...

[steve]

Originally Posted by trevius

Even if they didn't have access to that stuff for some odd reason (who knows, it is SOE afterall lol)...

They don't. I remember a post on the EQ forums from a Dev saying they don't have any of the original files from PoP or earlier. They were lost. That's why instead of modifying poknowledge directly to add new portal stones, they had to add objects. This is also why they can't modify any old zones. The original data to build the s3d files is simply not around any longer. Also why they can't fix the graphical armor problems or add new armor texture... they just simply don't have the original source files.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by steve

They don't. I remember a post on the EQ forums from a Dev saying they don't have any of the original files from PoP or earlier. They were lost. That's why instead of modifying poknowledge directly to add new portal stones, they had to add objects. This is also why they can't modify any old zones. The original data to build the s3d files is simply not around any longer. Also why they can't fix the graphical armor problems or add new armor texture... they just simply don't have the original source files.

that all sounds a little too far stretched. I am not working for a software company myself, but 3 of my friends do, and according to them each of the companies backing up data of their projects on DAILY bases regardless if anything was changed in the code or not, for last 15 years.

There could be many other reasons why SOE would do things one way or the other - can't add new armor textures? They simply do not want to spend time and money to do that! Can't modify old zones - there could be issues with intellectual property rights from original creators, so its easier for them to remake entire zone, not to mention to attract people with new graphics.

After all SOE/verant is well know to for YEARS to claim that something is completely not possible and will never happen, and 2-3 years later, they suddenly came up with with this new cool feature "on their own", which has been long suggested by the players. I, for one, gave them the complete technical layout for original Bazaar structure in the old days suggestions forum (back in 2000) - you know what they said? - NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!
1.5 years later - what do you know - a Bazaar, and almost 90% exact to the specification I gave them.

[steve]

Exactly, it was Verant before SOE bought them. Hence why those original files are nowhere to be found (either intentionally or unintentionally).

Anyway, we're going off-topic.

[Rogean]

Originally Posted by joligario

No, but they have been known to take "ideas" from MQ2 and others...

I'd hardly call classic eq a sudden "Idea"; Its been being requested by everyone all over their forums for a while now.

[KLS]

To be fair: Verant was always affiliated with Sony, they were a spin off from 989 which was owned by Sony... or did you always think Qeynos was a happy coincidence?

It's pretty silly to think that they would use anyone else's work if they actually wanted to make a classic server. Which I'm not convinced they do, a classic server would be nice for a while but it would eventually lose it's appeal as the nostalgia wore off. Really though, if they wanted to they have all the things in place and it's simply a matter of making another ruleset and turning off some server features and it's pretty much done aside from a bit of content tweaking.

Keep going though, this thread is pretty amusing.

[trevius]

Originally Posted by steve

They don't. I remember a post on the EQ forums from a Dev saying they don't have any of the original files from PoP or earlier. They were lost. That's why instead of modifying poknowledge directly to add new portal stones, they had to add objects. This is also why they can't modify any old zones. The original data to build the s3d files is simply not around any longer. Also why they can't fix the graphical armor problems or add new armor texture... they just simply don't have the original source files.

Just to clear some of these theories up, I wanted to mention that most of the things mentioned in this quote that cannot be changed are all things that are included with the client and could be changed extremely easily!

They can't create new armor? The armor files are right in the client install folder. It would be relatively easy for them to create a decent variety of armor sets even if all they did was add new textures. Why this has never been done is far beyond my understanding, but it has nothing to do with them losing files at any point. All they would do is create another equipment file and then adjust the client to load the new equipment file when the client logs in like normal. Maybe they don't do it because it isn't in the budget (extremely ridiculous excuse), or maybe they don't do it because it would cause a heavy performance hit to the client (unlikely, but not as ridiculous of an excuse). I am fairly confident that if I was given the tools to edit the EQG files easily, I could make new armor set textures for all races and all armor types in a couple of weeks. My artistic skills are nothing compared to people who do it professionally, but I bet I could pull something decent off. If distributing those files wasn't a legal risk, I would probably make special sets just for my server right now!

They can't adjust old zones? How many zones have been re-textured over the years? A large amount of them have and some of them weren't even that long ago. I believe even we can adjust old zones by using a tool like Openzone. And, if we can do it, there is no doubt that SOE can.

I also don't think that the mentioned PoK changes are any proof that they don't have the old files. What do you think is easier; adding an object or 2 to an existing zone, or completely modify the zone file itself to expand/change it? The way that SOE does their zone files now is very heavy use of objects to be placed throughout the zone when/where needed, probably to reduce redundancy in most cases. Take a look at the S3DSpy info on the new Freeport zones and you will see that a large majority of the zone is from objects in that file.

There may be some truth in what you are saying about SOE not having everything from when Verant ran things, but I doubt they are missing anything critical. The examples you gave are not related to the source code anyway, as those would more likely to be issues with missing tools for editing old zones/models/equipment/textures/etc. I can see them possibly losing old obsolete tools, but I don't see them losing their old source for client or server or any of their database revisions. Millions of dollars of investment in software should ensure some pretty thorough backups.

KLS is right though; even if they didn't have backups, they would just need to change the rulesets slightly as well as some content and they could be running a Classic server in no time. They have already had progression servers, and Classic is part of progression.

[joligario]

Originally Posted by Rogean

I'd hardly call classic eq a sudden "Idea"; Its been being requested by everyone all over their forums for a while now.

I was talking about Sony taking "ideas", not EQC.

[j0kie_smurf]

Hi. I am still relatively new to this forum. I am an independent programmer who has recently gotten into EqEmu. I loved the classic game and its content. When a friend of mine came to me with the idea of running a server, I decided to give it a whirl.

Well, this particular discussion, in my opinion, is very important. Security is a big issue. But I have to agree pyfon on there being a time and place for closed source, as opposed to open source. In my experience a a programmer, I think that first stages of a project should remain closed. But only until you get the ground work finished and have working code. It is very true that if someone wants to get into your code, they will. Believe me, I know from experience, it is impossible to 100% guarantee the security of your source code. Unless you want to use some pretty strong encryptions and lock out the rest of your developers. Sure, if you are a solo coder, encrypt it out the wazoo. But when you have a team, you just can't do that.

SoD, being closed source, has worked for them, that much is true. But they are one of the rare exceptions of closed source success for so long. And by the way, just as a side note, their people are not as insanely loyal as some might think. (Again, I can speak from experience.) Their cookie is crumbling.

In the end, I think each individual team must decide if open or closed is the best choice for them. Not an easy decision to make. Especially in a community of developers. You just can't share with some and exclude others and you can't just hand your source out to the world either without it getting muddled or stepped on and others trying to take credit for work that isn't theirs.

I wish this community the best of luck in their endeavors. And as for those crack pots that tried to steal other people's work....they're lucky they didn't try that on me. I hope you guys stick it to them good. I hate thieves and liars.

Good luck and best wishes to you all.
EQ isn't dead!

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by trevius

They can't create new armor? The armor files are right in the client install folder. It would be relatively easy for them to create a decent variety of armor sets even if all they did was add new textures. Why this has never been done is far beyond my understanding, but it has nothing to do with them losing files at any point. All they would do is create another equipment file and then adjust the client to load the new equipment file when the client logs in like normal. Maybe they don't do it because it isn't in the budget (extremely ridiculous excuse), or maybe they don't do it because it would cause a heavy performance hit to the client (unlikely, but not as ridiculous of an excuse). I am fairly confident that if I was given the tools to edit the EQG files easily, I could make new armor set textures for all races and all armor types in a couple of weeks. My artistic skills are nothing compared to people who do it professionally, but I bet I could pull something decent off. If distributing those files wasn't a legal risk, I would probably make special sets just for my server right now!.

Back when they put out Luclin engine they SPECIFICALLY stated that new engine in so many ways superior, specially cause how textures of armor now overlays the model, rather than replaces its texture, that they can now EASILY produce many more new armors looks, as easy as 1-2-3.
Of course those those greedy bastards never did...

[neorab]

Yeahlight, my friend. I think the paranoia has finally made you crack. SoE wanting or using GPL code is as outlandish as a derivative work of a GPL project withholding source code. No, actually it's far less, but still crazy.

Edit: Sony definitely has the tools to modify zone files client side. There are tools floating around online that will unpack and (supposedly) repack. Secondly, it took little more than a weekend to create new tools to do it. Unfortunately, I get the impression that they put a ton of code into the server side that people over look. I recall reading that the new bump code in SoL was saving the servers 14% cpu time. That makes me wonder. Maybe they really did "lose" something that would have made it all come together at a cost that was likely to return a profit. Who knows.

[Wesell]

Originally Posted by neorab

[...]SoE wanting or using GPL code is as outlandish as a derivative work of a GPL project withholding source code. No, actually it's far less, but still crazy.

Uh, the GPL doesn't require EQC or anyone to distribute their work. It only describes what will happen if they do.