The current system

[corvanus]

doesnt seem like any are updated anymore, no offense but i see very little comming out from the development team ive been ghosting for sometime running my own minilogin based server for a few years now... and i see a growing problem, and please note that i do not mean to step on any toes or be rude but only to address an issue that i see...

I see a ton of people on these forums like you cavedude with developer under their name or "master programmer" or this or that, yet where is all the developing? a line or two in a changelog? one or two fixes every couple of months? i remember when there were updates almost more then once a week? what is the purpose of open source if none of us can actually contribute? why is the cvs repo locked off from the community as a whole to post their own updates? its obvious that many of the code submissions dont make it in the code... My question is why doesnt the communityhave the abbility to update it, and where are the leaders of the project? where are the updates and changes?

it seems to me that more focus is put into say peq then making the emu better as a whole on the current development teams part atleast, the community tries but the developers dont bother keeping up with us or even responding to submissions in coding from us.

to cut it down to a few words... eqemu is beginning to stagnate, fizzle out, because it would seem the dev team has lost touch with us and the project as a whole because its more important to post here instead of doing the coding integrating submissions, i see alot of posts get closed and people get banned but wheres the work on the emu and why cant we the community be more active in its development instead of the "Gods of the cvs" attitude that seems to prevail?

[corvanus]

i wold like to say i could be wrong here its just an observation but i think alot of people have alot of good ideas and code snippets and what not to contribute personally and i just dont undestand why this isnt more community based i mean this is supposed to be an open source project is it not?

but what is happening is that we have a ton of people running servers doing their own stuff and not sharing their fixes and edits for whatever reason or the other ontop of that they might not think itll make it into the release code, plus who wants to submit code to have it attributed to whatever dev puts it into the release and changelog?

[cavedude]

http://www.projecteq.net/phpBB2 is why I have that title. I put a TON of time into PEQ. That's why it has focus, because we have a whole group of people working on it. That and much like the EQEmu code, it has a very long way to go.

Why is the CVS locked off? Simple, despite the opinions of many, the EQEmu code has standards. All code that goes into CVS has to pass through a quality check. It isn't perfect, but it certainly helps to keep the crap out. There was once a time when EQEmu would fail to compile every other commit, things would constantly be broken, blah blah. That hasn't been a problem in years. When FNW took over one of the first things he did was clean up the pile we called code. Since then, the project has been clear sailing for the most part. If CVS was opened to the public, our code would go back to that shit state very quickly.

The vast majority of the code on the forums makes it into the code. If it doesn't, than there is either something wrong with it or it was overlooked. The latter doesn't happen as much as we have several people keeping an eye on the developmental forums for gems. If code on the forums is border line, I know many times KLS or Wild will either clean it up, or rewrite it with a different approach. So, the work from the forums DOES make it in.

The project has been slow for 2 months, it happens. Look at the commit dates. The few coders here have lives. EQEmu has advanced in leaps and bounds in the past year and a half. It is more playable now than ever by far. EQEmu is far from stagnate, especially when you look at our past.

Now, let me ask, what exactly have YOU done to help things?

[corvanus]

sorry but i wont submit code to have you the devs rip it off and claim it as yours by claiming it doesnt meet standards and "rewriting it" with your byline on it, but that is my personal reason why i do not submit any of my code because it is just that my code and since i wont have someone elses name attached to it i wont submit it though i do give it to certaion people via pm or email or other medium it is with the expressed condition that it not be posted for the dev team to take credit for.

as for looking at the past yes lets devn00b and image did more then most of the developers currently here in far less time they did things like write the login server where is there credit for that?

I would hardly call their work shit as you just clearly did i still have jsut about ever release that ever came out of the emulator code and i never had issues compiling or running it. and to claim you the current dev team are gods gift to the emulator and everything before was shit is just plain wrong and totally rude and disrespectfull to those who BUILD this project long before YOU Even knew about it.

[corvanus]

your words show a total lack of respect for BOTH the old developers who MAD eqemu and gave you all a foundation to stand on and a total lack of respect for the abbilities of the community how can you sit there and call other peoples work shit and say if the cvs was open we would turn eqemu into shit? that is totally outrageous, and to say the code is clean is again outrageous because guess what it isnt it still has a long way to go.

I didnt turn this post into a flame session but as always insults have to start flying when someone questions those in "power" guess what without US the cummunity you would have no project it would be empty and dead so how about you guys actually LISTEN To us once in a while instead of flaming and basicly calling us substandard as you JUST did that was COMPLETELY uncaled for. i wont get into a developers pissing contest with you because if i threw my coding resume on the table i would probably embarrass you suffices to say i have been in this busines long enough to have worked on mainframes.

I request an appology for you besmirching everyone but yourselves the dev team with your rude statements that our work would be shit

[cavedude]

Yes, when many people have access to a CVS without organization it turns to shit very quickly. It's no attack on the individual coders, it's just part of life. That's why we have governments. Anarchy doesn't work in the civilized world. To give you a prime example, Developer A codes in a change to let's say AC. At the same time Developer B is working on an overall combat overhaul. The two didn't communicate and both patches get committed. Combat is now broken. Odds are they will communicate, but if CVS was made public as you propose, some asshole can and will come along and submit their code with no regards to others.

Check the changelog, credit is ALWAYS given to people for their work, even if it needed to be changed.

Yes my friend, there was indeed a time when EQEmu would find itself broken every other patch, or many systems became broken. The reason was there were too many people working on the project and they did not properly communicate with each other. So, while it did seem like it was moving quickly, it was also getting pushed back at the same time. In this current era, we aren't seeing commits as much, but there are far fewer conflicts, and so we have very little set backs. I did not attack any one developer. Anybody who has ever been given access to the code has been a top notch coder.

You want power in this community? Contribute instead of whining and attacking. That's how I did it, and how FNW did it, and how devn00b and image before us did it. Let's not forget Lethal, Wize, Scorp, Doodman, Roegan, Windcatcher, Rangerdown, tcsmyworld, drawde, Wildcard, KLS, Angelox, etc, etc... If any of them had decided to complain instead of actually helping the community, we'd still be stuck in the dark ages.

Put your damn resume on the table. Write something and post it on the forums. I don't think you can/will.

You want an apology after you attacked me by name? Who's full of themselves?

[corvanus]

i didnt attack anyone i said the project is stagnating because the developers( all of you) seem to be loosing interest which is fine it happens but if you dont wish to be doing what you are doing then turn it over to someone who does, burnout happens spreading ones self too thin happens but to let the project suffer because of that is quite simply immature.

you want a resume? somehow i dont think that would accomplish much. suffices to say ive been coding in various languages for over 20 years and i will leave it at that from fortran to binary to perl to php and on up to actionscript shockwave and other forms of scripting including database development.

the entire point of this community system is to communicate which is what i am doing this is a concern, people seem to be loosing interest simple as that. posting on the forums has become more important then development, peq is your priority which is fine.

Simple fact is you got pissed and nasty because i brought up a very valid concern one which i have seen again and again through the years ive been using the emulator.

we have an irc server that is always silent we have forums where people get banned left and right for disagreeing with the current powers that be's view on things. we have a ton of broken things in the code itself that have been broken since day one and through all of that it is caused by mainly people not listening to one another chastise me if you will but it is my oppinion and i am entitled to it.

I dont want power in the community i want the community to be that a community where all voices are heard even when they dont agree with those of the people in control. where valid concerns arent met with scorn and insults and condescending attitudes. where when people submit coding its worked on faster and everyone gets credit.

I know from past experience from submitting coding in the past that made it into release and credit was stolen by one of the development team with no mention of me that it does not always get accredited to the original coder.

[cavedude]

Nobody is losing interest, people just have other things going on. Spring is a tough time for many people. Many companies do maintenance, upgrades, etc on their equipment this time of year for the impending summer. Of course the hot summer months wreak havoc on electrical equipment. Since we're emulating a MMO, it's likely many of us are in the IT industry.

No, I don't want a resume, that's just a piece of paper that can be made to say anything. Didn't you know I served as the King of England for a winter? What I was trying to do is get you to stop this foolish bickering we have going on and start doing more productive things. Make a code fix, write a quest, something.

I got nasty mainly because in your first post you called me out by name, and hinted at that I don't do anything, or don't deserve the title I have. That's what pissed me off. The secondary reason was I've become sick of people complaining who don't contribute. (And if you have done so, I'm sorry, but I don't remember seeing your name anywhere) I know I can't speak for anybody else but I know it feels like I do all this work only to get shit thrown back at me. Do this, do that, fix this, fix that. It's infuriating.

I usually only idle in IRC and have no control, so I don't know what happens there. So, I can't say anything about that topic.

If something is broken in the code, fix it and post it. Pestering developers to do it isn't the way to get it done, and goes back to my point above where we are (often) demanded to fix things.

I think all voices are heard. I know I listen to everybody, and I try to get everything into the db/quests that gets posted, even if it needs some work on my part. I may overlook a lot, but that's because I'm one person, and so many people contribute it is often hard to keep up. That's ignoring that fact that I also maintain Grand Creation which has its own set of responsibilities.

Could you please post specific details about code being stolen? A forum thread and changelog in comparison, or something along those lines. You can even PM it to me if you want for privacy. I seriously doubt it has happened in recent history, and without hard evidence you can't make an accusation like that.

[cavedude]

Moving this to Off-Topic as it does not belong in the original thread.

[erik_llewellyn]

Give em both barrels Cavedude. I have followed, played, and setup servers for EQEmu for over 4 years now and I can attest the mound of poo that the code used to be. I have had no issues in all that time with anyone in the forums or the project and most are willing to take the time to re-explain something even if it's in 10000000000 other threads. As you pointed out, if you want something done, take the time and learn how to fix it yourself. All of the master programmers and devs in the community will bend over backwards to help you out with answering questions and tweaking code, they just don't have time to do every little want or desire that comes up. I know first hand how long it can take to write a functional code/program and there can simply never bee too many programmers for something as large scale as an MMO.

To all the doomsayers out there, just remember this emulator will be alive and well long after EQLive gets the plug pulled.

[ChaosSlayer]

corvanus - download the source code- its open to anyone.
Do your modifications, and then post the whole thing with your modifications on your own website - this way you will get all the credit for your hard work.. given anyone chooses to download your code over EQemu's code...

Saying this isnt open source because people get banned from the forums is a big load a cow doo doo.

If you go to any open source community and act like an ass clown you will be banned from the forums.

Open source means the code is open source, not the forums.

The code is free for anyone to look at, download and edit.

The forums are paid for and owned, Rogean paid for it this time around, the box that the login server and forums are on are paid for, Doodman did this I think.

Forums are here to be nice and are not required at all to call this open source, you have access to the code, and nobody has ever been blocked from downloading it, that make this open source.

Now take a deep breath, have a beer (if old enough) lay off the coffee and rethink your arguments because they are flawed. Every person who submitted a code fix, even if it was modified before going in, has been credited with the work.

[corvanus]

matt i am sorry but i submitted code back when 0.7.x was fairly new and (my mistake in the pm cavedude)which was a fix to windcatcher's code and sql he then deleted my posts changed the code and put it as his own work in the changelog which is why i left the forums and just recently reregistered if you wish i can dig through my code and get the fixes mentioned as well as his code before it was changed as i save well everything lol

im quite old enough to have a beer but dont usually have them at 6 am lol

Windcatcher has never been an EQEmu developer, he works on side projects.

If he did that he was wrong, however using him as an example of what EQEmu does (when he isnt a developer) is another flawed argument!

[cavedude]

Going back to 8/10/03 Windcatcher's name only appears once in the changelog:

==09/15/2005
FatherNitwit: Fixed coin trading bug reported by Windcatcher

You can grab the full changelog from CVS if you wish to confirm.

I think it's really messed up to drag his name through the mud. He's a good guy, and has been a huge contributor to EQEmu. His 3rd party tools are top notch. Why lie?