Of course I plan on keeping up with the installer! As mush as I enjoy working on the database, I think it's equally as cool to help people new to the community get their server up and running so that when they learn the ropes a bit, they can help out as you have done, Angelox.

Zengez, let me analyze your post, because it has many great points in it that I totally disagree with. :D

Sorry Zen, I disagree with this idea 100%. There are probably hundreds of databases just like this out there already... and do you know how much "feedback" we get? Barely any. Ask Angelox - this is his thread for that very reason. If people cared to do so, they would have contributed with PEQ-RC1, fixing OG -> Luclin content. And the PEQ staff is not 100 guys - it's roughly 3, who don't get paid to do this anymore than we do, but carry the great burden of maintaining a set philosophy. Start adding Joe Schmoe's data on a whim, you are right back to random inconsistent data with no one to test and validate, because no one will. No matter how great an idea it seems.

This is what we do now, today, without changing a thing. People post bugs, post fixed code, and post wishlist items they'd like to see. The "powers that be" pick those items that are intelligible, are well conceived, and will benefit the entire community, and incorporate those fixes into the next build. How is what you're asking for any different?

This is about all I agree with. If there is one man alive on this planet earth that knows how to modify the collector/extractor/builder, I implore - beg - grovel (but I won't send cash) him to teach someone else how to do it. I know it's difficult, or it would be done on a whim. But it's not brain surgery. Even I could learn how to walk packets and look for strings. Yeah it's more than that, but the point being, we strongly require a knowledge transfer in this area. PEQ may be rumbling around Luclin, but random_admin01 may wish to work on GoD - and HIS data will be golden, not hand spawned or something the core guys just don't trust.

Dude. This is sooo a rant. :D You have that power __right now__ to find flaws in the database and submit them to PEQ Database Bugs for integration. I really do not see what you are asking for, for 2+ years... (except the tools part heh)

Please don't take my quoting only you as a direct attack towards only you. I do sympathize with what you're saying, but I sincerely feel we have everything you are looking for right this moment, only you want a database.sql file with todays date on it. And I just don't see how that's any different than working with the latest release. Same goes for the code.

I'm done. Sorry if I tweaked any nipples.

My Database Ideas
 

Ok, here goes.

Angelox, Cavedude, PEQ = Choice... but

I think we should conglomerate the 3 databases. And this is how I suggest it gets done ;) (Read the word "Suggest" a few times to make sure you saw it there :P


1. Start with a blank Database (All the base tables ect)

2. Start with one Table and use a nice viewer like MySQL Front to compare the info... copy or export the info needed from each database and compile it into a sql file. Continue this until you have gone threw every table. It may take a long time but if you get different person to do a different table then it will go faster.

3. After this is done source all the .sql files you have into the clean database.

4. Now setup a forum that has a public area and a private area. Public so everyone can submit fixes. Private so you can copy and paste fix code from the poublic area as needed.

The Forums must be set up with an area for every table in the database so that posts go into the forum according to the table the public person is offering the code to edit.

5. Make one date per month..say the 15th. That a new verion of the database is released that way the people doing the editing have 30 days to add or change whatever they want from the forums or privately inbetween the releases. After a edit is made from the public forums message you just delete that message that way the forums stay clean.

6. Make it known to people joining the forums that this isn't a place of discussion but a place of submission for work doen on the Master Database.



I REALLY wish I had time to do Database work again :( Starting my own company has really killed my fun time, but filled my pockets with more than lint.

I know Angelox and cavedude are really the only major player in the database are right now (cavedude now holds PEQ or so i believe) so I guess it is really an idea for them to mull over.

If you need a fast host for files and forums let me know I've got a pro server up and running that I have complete controll over >:)

Well, I got a "sneak-peek" at what's coming from PEQ. I can tell you, you all are going to get knocked off your feet.
They are in fact, doing a very good job. They have something there to make everyone happy.
Even me, with my nit-pick'n details.

I agree with you 100% with how you said that John Adams, but the problem is that you actually took my points out of context. You see, It's true that the PEQ team skims the forums for updates, which is exactly why I suggested what I did... you're absolutely right that isn't asking for something new.

However what I Was asking for was for the complete database to be released so that there was absolutely plenty to work on and then I guaruntee you dozens of posts will be made from all over by many different members on updates for all sorts of updates throughout the entire 'mangled' area of the database. Sure there won't be any rhymn or reason to the updates, you'll have single mobs being fixed in dozens of zones at once and no one zone will be completed any time soon that way, but the database as a whole will have 10+ members making active and intelligent contributions instead of the 3 members we have currently running PEQ.

Now don't get me wrong, we will have likely dozens and dozens of posts about how to fix things, or things that are off, etc etc, and most of them will, frankly, be crap. Which is why I suggest that PEQ team skims the forums for intelligent updates and picks them out of the mess and puts them in.

(Randomly interjected so hopefully that doesn't break the flow of the writing)

This I think is more that hte 'hundreds of databases' are entirely pet projects that are private databases or not 'official works' of the emulator project... PEQ is 'THE' emulator database... If this were posted and asked for updates alot more people would try to help I'd bet, because they don't feel like they are trying to just help out some random person with one thing that isn't for the community but just for them... In contrast the PEQ database is assumed to be the community's database and thus people would know their work is for the betterment of everyone, not just the betterment of one particular person or server.

Now, as a tangent, to go to CaveDudes comment on being flooded with random support requests and complaints by newbins that complain that xx zone way out in expansion land that isn't complete is 'messed up and I fall for 10k damage when I hit a mob!' or some such. To this I'd recommend two things,

1: Make a sticky post/giant banner/ some other thing that says that these zones aren't supported and shouldn't be played unless you are trying to fix them.

2: Now, for all those true newbins that never read that stuff and post why EQ doesn't work after patching just like they read somewhere, get another person into the PEQ team whose sole job it is to take in those complaints, sift through them and get what is good and what isn't, reply to them, etc... Basically a liason between the PEQ staff and the other people, because honestly that is exactly what it feels like... PEQ team is 'them' and the rest is 'us' and we have no idea what is or is not going on in the world of database development... If we had an intermediary it would be good for many different reasons, for example we'd have someone who would be very active in replying to our questions about whatever with the database, and potentially more importantly, whomever currently does this (I believe that would be you Cavedude) would be able to do the work on PEQ and not have to hassle with the crazies, and/or spend all yer time essentially doing customer support.
Everyone's happy.

(EDIT:: Interjection, I dont mean it to seem like we have no voice, because I know we can post updates and suggestios and bug reports, my point was we don't know if you are actually doing anything about what we say or not because we have no feedback on our feedback that I've seen unless you're one of the few that gets a line about how they contributed in a release note somewhere or in a random forum somewhere, but those are fairly rare in the grand scheme of things)

Now I don't know if anyone 'wants' that responsibility, but thats what makes sense to me.

Also, to the other part you mentioned John; What I've been asking for all this time is an actually full release of 'any' database rather than withholding updates that aren't quite 'finished' yet until the 3 guys are done working on them, it seems such a waste to me to see people that could be doing real work on the spawns and loot and factions and whatnot of a database instead going back and replacing missing doors in zone xyz that nobody really needs in the first place... Get all the essential stuff in, then worry about doors and who is selling what (no offense intended to those that did these, it's still more than alot of other people, and I have nothing but respect to anyone that does any work on the database).

Recap::

So essentially All I was asking for was to have a full release of everything PEQ has right now, including allt he innacurate and messed up zones for 'most of the zones our client supports' as per Cavedude, and I was merely listing all the ways that would help us with what we were already doing, I wasn't saying that people don't scan the forums for updates, or that people don't have the ability to post fixes and updates, merely all this would be far far better if we actually had stuff to work with, rather than going over the already finely tuned stuff that PEQ releases... they seem to 'make sure we're happy with it before we release it' then complain that we don't post enough fixes to it... Just seems kind of backwards to me, if you want people to help you fix it, release it when it still needs serious work, otherwise only the very very select few with mastery of; the database, hardcoding, and everquest the game, will be able to fix anything.

Zengez, sounds like all your issues can be handles by joining the team and making it 4 people.


Anyone who wants to help CAN, all they need to do is go to Cavedude and ask, so that team of 3 can become a team of 20 if people are interested and want to.

Zengez, I may have misinterpreted some of what you were saying, yes. I wasn't really talking only to you, though, but anyone else who feels the project needs help. Matt really said it best... join the team, officially. You seem very feverish and interested. You ever thought considered it?

Thank you Angelox for your very kind words. We have tried to bulldoze the entire database, correcting bugs as we go. We have slowed a little bit I must admit at the moment, but mostly because we are all working on longer term mini projects that can't be finished in a matter of hours.

Zengez, I'm sorry but a full database release is not going to happen right now. It is in the works and it will happen soon but we feel it is just not ready yet. I am hoping for a release in another 1 - 2 months. This will incooperate our massive changes to Luclin and below, all of the original epics, many other freshly added quests, a tweaked VT (with the key quest), a tweaked PoK, and if I get to it in time, a tweaked PoT. But, here's how I see it... FNW released his last version of Luclin in December. Even we make a release in 2 months, that is still only 3 months or so inbetween releases. That I think is the fastest update in PEQ history. Why is it not coming out until those goals are met? Support is the number one issue. I WILL receive support quests and there isn't anything that can be done to stop that. Secondly, without goals, people tend to sit on things forever. We are all itching to release the database but knowing that we won't until our goals are met keeps us motivated. Quicker updates will hope to be the norm. Possibly instead of a full PoP release, we'll have Luclin 1.5 with half of the PoP zones done and perhaps LoY.

What's to stop you from helping now? Download the Luclin Final http://projecteq.net/downloads.php You actually have access to the newest quests now, using anonymous CVS login: http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=127915 Then, check out the PEQ forums: http://projecteq.net/phpBB2/ Our players submit bugs and suggestions everyday. Browse through and see what you may want to take on. You can also login into the PEQ server, to see the db in action. Using the Luclin final as a guide, create the .sql files and post them on the MySQL submission board. You don't need access to the current database to help.

I'm sensing this is actually the root issue here. :)

I can't wait to see the new database!

ouch, kinda. Just as a pre-emptive statement: I don't take offense at this remark, although i do feel a bit slighted. I'm certain you didn't mean anything bad by it, due to your last sentence there. So no harm, no foul.

BUt I do want to help everyone with what I can do and when it comes to
I really have no skill with that when it comes to 'live-like' qualities. Thus I attempt to fill in the spaces for those who will come later who do have the skills necessary: To lessen their work when it comes time for those areas to be filled. I find most of my modifications/ additions can be used by the majority of the community, and not just the PEQ team, as they are changes to empty or un-finished areas. Thus, I put out my modifications here instead of anywhere else, and in a format that is the 'least' restrictive to databases that I can achieve.

Some of us would like to be a part of the PEQ team, but I'm sure I am not the only one that doesn't apply simply because we do not feel we have anything to offer other than what we currently have produced. And as most of that isn't 'world-specific', there really is no need to have my name anywhere but in the minds of those who are doing the real work. I hope that if they come across a situation that I have proven myself capable of they ask for my assistance, since the worst I can do is say no.

It's also a good point to note that quite a few of us are only here for short periods of time on and off. I have been a member of this community for quite a bit longer than I have been posting these updates, but as is always in life: I get burned out/ distracted and fail to return for months or so.

As a jokeing aside comment: Does this mean I need to start linking my threads from here to PEQ boards?

I just say to post on the PEQ forums because it is easier for us. Both the EQEmulator and PEQ forums seem to have the same number of active users (ok, so maybe Emu edges out out a bit) so it's tough to find time to browse both forums looking for cool additions. PEQ has a nice and neat MySQL submission forum setup here: http://www.projecteq.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=38 so that would help us out a ton. Plus, if the changes are made for PEQ then to me it only makes sense to use our forums. I always felt the EQEmulator.net forums were more meant for the code and just a general meeting place for all community members.

Well, I like the work that's going on over there at PEQ, Lots of activity, and I'm sure they will put out a new database when they are ready. From what I've seen, Cavedude never had anything to hide, gave us his Eq database, and I'm sure he'll give us PEQ when it's done too. My biggest worry was that my hard work would get lost in a pile of "waiting to be inspected" lists, I also thought I would never see stuff like the LoY zones, unless I did it myself - this is not so anymore.
Fact of matter is, we really are not giving Cavedude and his "revised" PEQ project a chance. Currently, there is nothing more organized than PEQ ( and never was). And my original idea, may very well be just another "pipe dream".
I am NOT that organized - I am just one guy that proved to you all what one dumd-assed MySql, Perl illiterate can accomplish - at the time i started, PEQ or nobody else was doing nothing (Most like Cavedude, were "retired"), void FNW , who was working on the source.
Originally, I started this thread as a plea to get something more done to the public DB. There's not really a lot of people willing to do do this, and what few there are , need to stick together. I'm willing to to go over and help PEQ in whatever way I can, hope you all will too.
Keep in mind, there "each ship can only have one skipper", so we can't go in there "bossing" everyone around.

Amen to this on so very many levels, and this is absolutely the primary reason I haven't already tried to join the PEQ team, because I simply am not confident that I won't gravitate elsewhere by choice or necessity for a long stretch of time...

But let me just say that I think several people may have taken my ... fervor... a little too intensly. I think what this project has accomplished is mind boggling, and the database as of now is remarkable and advancing in good order, or from what I hear.

I am also quite please Cavedude is the leader of the PEQ crew, he did alot of good work on many database things that I've toyed with and I have great respect for him and what he has done.

Read above and replace Cavedude with Angelox; you are right up there with the others despite what you say.

Now to the point, I post what I did, and am, because I think that it is a very largely held belief right now that nobody wants to say. As such, I took it upon myself to be the voice of those that wouldn't speak up and bring the issue front and center. Many of the topics I myself wholeheartedly agree with, such as at least some form of public release or wider release of a rougher database to generate interest...

However some of what I have said I don't necessarily wholeheartedly agree with but I thought it needed to be said, so that we had a discussion on exactly why things are the way they are, and what is/is not changing. Thus far I think I've accomplished what I set out to do and that is why I'm writing this now... This isn't a retraction by any means but I just wanted to make my postition clear so everyone doesn't think I'm being negative on the project or those that are pushing it, it's quite the opposite.

All that being said, let me continue with the topic at hand however. I guess all I'd really want to see is an explicit example of what you guys think can be accomplished under the parameters you have set, by those of us outside the team with access to the database... Here's what I see and I'm sure there has got to be more to it otherwise this wouldn't be such a debateable issue;

Ok, Under the current setting;

1) People log into PEQ and get an idea for how the world works, keeping in mind live and whatnot, jot down any issues they may have and anything they notice lacking for content and whatnot.
2) People then go code crawling and figure out how the database really works by posting questions, and looking at the newest released database (something in favor of this, the database will be clean and thus not quite as confusing to the newbins)
3) Once the person has a feel for how things work and what goes where, they proceed to fix the things they noticed were missing/off and then post fixes in the forums explaining what/why/how/where/etc...
4) Rinse and repeate.

Ok, perfectly good in theory, now here's what I see under an opened release of the database:

1) Exact same thing as above as none of that would be thus unavailible due to having more things to work with...
2) Added, people could look through the zones they are most familiar with... those that went through Wall of Slaughter all the time would be able to see the progression with Wall of Slaughter instead of being limited to the velious or newer zones, thus they would be able to work with what they know, and have a better understanding/refference for picking out what is missing/off...
3) with more familiarity comes more interesting in fixing it, which in result leads to more activity and posts with updates, which then fixes the database faster and more efficiently.
4) potential downside is the newbins that try and fail and flood people with support/bad ideas/ etc... See above with the liason/intermediary for answer.


Ok, so is that it? What else am I missing here? Let the talk continue!


PS:: bufferofnewbies, I actually was extatic to hear about the door update because I liked to close doors on my friends to mess them up when we played hide and seek in empty PoK... So I was speaking of generality more than anything else, and like I said, nothing but respect :)

Building a zone is like painting a picture; at one time, when my dad was in the military, we lived in Spain, and, my dad used to oil paint for a hobby. Not because he's my dad, but he did beautiful landscape paintings - he never went to no "art school", just had the talent. My dad also has a fearful temper (and the muscle to back it up), and when he had a tantrum - everyone stayed clear else you loose your head. I preferred to hide under the bed, and watch him stomp by breaking things. Needless to say, one day all the hundreds of oil-paintings got torn up and trashed, during a temper-tantrum - they were all lost.
Anyways, when my dad used to paint , he always carried around some kind of "charcoal pencil" and a sketch-pad. He would pull up to a view, decide what he wanted to paint, and make a sketch of it with his pad. His sketches were incredibly nice too ( I would have settled for those even). Then he'd go home and start painting the final version, with the sketch as a sort of outline.
What I'm getting at is, the zones here are really a piece of modern-day artwork. We have all the pieces ( packets collected), and a "sketch" of it. But it is all unfinished; the detail is incomplete.
I'm not talking about AA's, or haste, or skill points and what not. I mean the true, picture" of the zone with all of its detail.
When I take my character to a zone, I look for all the detailed mechanics that make this zone; Drops, spawns, rare spawns, ultra-rare spawns, grids, quests, objects, etc. I want the zone to "feel" like the real Everquest. If a Hill giant drops 30pp on live, then i want him to drop that too in my zone - and if an orc drops 2sp, then that's what he should drop. Some mobs like Quilmane and Bilge, are "legendary" rare spawns. And to me, if you have stuff like Quilmane flopping around the zone all the time - you just ruined a major part of South Karana. In Butcher; Corflunk - he's not supposed to be just standing there like some big "dork" (scratching his ass) and even less the Fabled version. He was a sought out spawn and had a path. Fabled versions of spawns are supposed to be some of the rarest spawns in the game. How is ToFS like with no working keys?
We need to attract people that really want to play, we need to make a game out of this. We need to make the zones "playable". You have to ask yourself, will I want to play in this zone too?, does everything look/feel right?
To be honest with you, I think the custom zones are not helping this situation, but thats another debate. When I first saw the log-in server, I expected to see a string of servers that had a plan; all the same zones with all the same content.
There probably should be rules; no cheating, no this, no that, etc. New zones should be opened in all servers at the same time. Maybe, we should have two areas (at the login) for EQ, one labled "custom", where everything goes - then the real servers where things are working towards a goal. Blizzard has "free-for-all servers like this, then they have the servers where there is rules.

Hah Zengez, it might be a good idea to not insult those who do help out and post updates here. Even though you don't mean it, posting that "hand-spawns and random useless door fixes" is probably going to result in those people not wanting to help anymore. Pretty sure this, coupled with feeling ignored, causes that self-termination and abandonment we see here from otherwise helpful people monthly.

I still fully support packet collecting and extraction. IMO, this is the only true way to get accurate data (but that does not mean I do not enjoy anyone's hand-spawned efforts!) However, since we cannot seem to get the tools updated to the current Live expansion, what can we do? Nothing. Hand Spawn.

If someone IS working on the tools, might I make a recommendation to wait til after Feb 15th or so. I am confident SOE will poop out yet another packet-modifying expansion. I know tools like Magelo are incompatible for a few weeks after an expansion. Is it possible to sniff out what *they* to to match the new packets? Doesn't appear to be illegal for them to do, and I doubt SOE hands them the new structures each release.

I've never been a fan of New Year's resolutions, as they inevitably wind up being unfulfilled. However, my hope is that 2007 will be the year we release our own client, with our own content: our own zones, mobs, spells items, etc. I want to see 2007 as the year that people can begin running 300+ servers again (like Dawntide) without fear of ever being shut down. When Dawntide was shut down everyone was talking about how it had gotten too big, it was too good for SOE to allow to exist, and they shut it down. Well, they don't get to do that again. That's what I resolved when they took that action. We will release a client this year. We will have our own creature models, our own zones, our own spell list, our own gods and lore, everything (and you won't see "eq" or any of their names anywhere in there so no back-handed trademark actions will be possible). It will be our own game, but it will also be EQEmu (actually EQEmu+ as we'll put in provisions for servers to set their own gods list, available race/class combos, etc.) That's what I have planned for 2007, and I predict that 2008 will be the year of 300+ servers once again.

In 1993, I made a New Year's resolution to never make another New Year's Resolution. I have yet to break it... :)

That is an amazing resolution you almost didn't make, Wind... :) Very exciting stuff. I wasn't aware the EQEmu project was heading that way - though it makes sense that it would.

We're all pretty confident at this point that SOE will *eventually* shut EQLive down. It's populations are so low, it's almost sad.

Follow up post for 2008!
 

I just thought of this thread from last year and was looking over it. Seems we did get a few things going for the better;
PEQ Database really is a "public" database - always being updated and posted to the public. With Cavedude in charge, anyone can contact him and become part of that portion of the project.
Database itself still has very much work undone - even the expansions said to be "done" really are not; For example, I was playing in lake of Ill Omen, when I realized all the missing roamers and mobs in the old "stomping grounds" (have since been adding there).
Probably the most complete expansion would be the PEQ LoY one, and that's because we all came together on that one.

Loggin Server; Same' ol - same' ol. Closed source, propertied, and preferred membership remains exclusive to a few of the "chosen" ones. At least, If a server can stay up and running over a few months (or a year even), it should be offered the preferred server listing. We are ALL part of the project and ALL deserve
proper treatment.

Source; I really like and appreciate all the work done here. And the way any new (worthwhile) ideas posted by anyone (DEV or not) gets quickly moved into it.

I wonder whats in store for 2008?

...
 

I disagree,
Preferred memberships should only be for the LARGE POPULATION
servers not for just anyone who can throw up a server.
but it's not my choice and I never really cared about it anyway since
everyones server is seen, it don;t really matter if some are green and I doubt it's going to make anyone pick it over a really well built small server thats on the bottom of the list.
I think what really matters is Gameplay and is the Server fun to play on even if your solo.
people complain about my server all the time just go read my boards.
but the answer back is always the same....
what are you doing to help make it better ??? nothing ...then shutup.
thats my 2 cents..

Well, in any case - I just got banned from the log in server, probably for my comment here, goes to show what I'm talking about.
Fact of matter is, I'm so fed up with a few of the people here, I'm quitting this scene for a while, probably time I did something different anyway.

I think that being posted as a preferred server is irrelevant as most people will try several severs out before committing to any one.

If you are honest and treat your people with respect they will come back to play no matter where in the list you happen to be.

It is a shame that someone would be banned for a comment such as this if that is really what it's about ( I wasn't there ) and I hope you reconsider and stick around.

Saying that preferred servers should only be for large population servers and ones that have been around awhile is actually laughable as originally preferred servers where meant for new servers that have low population.

anyway this is a ridicules argument and one that should not get people pissed off.


Of course I could just be bonkers in which case everyone should just ignore me.

New years resolution...

Get Nug Blazers finished !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the ultimate custom server ><

and... fry my head off as much as possible :)
and... make mad money, ofcourse. yheeeeee

edit: ++ help this and related projects as much as possible.

edit2: wow just noticed this thread is really old... but theres my reso anyways =D

Lol seems reso 1 has come true allready :)

I really hope you are not serious about Quitting Angelox :( I know you have helped me out greatly, and have made huge efforts in this community. Just my thoughts
thanks for all your work
~LL~

Well Ax, you have come a long way in the year+ I've known you. While I disagree with nearly everything that you say and you have become an intolerably arrogant and unappreciative little ____ for anyone not in your clique (grin), I feel you have done some amazing things for the community, and side with you on most "pure EQ" concepts for the emulator scene. I cannot believe they would take the time to ban you from the loginserver though, so hopefully that is not the case. Since there is but one true point of entry for EQ Emulators, that would pretty much scare me away from ever thinking I actually had the freedom to speak my mind on community-related issues.

For 2008? I plan nothing. 2007 here has shown that no matter what anyone does, it goes unnoticed. You're welcome for my LDoN work and posts to dev that got deleted, my EQ Items testing and submissions that became someone elses contribution, my changes to WorldHTTP that got deleted from the forums, and limitless support for those in need of help.

JA, going underground - see you on the EQ2Emulator project.