76,845 registered users
 

That's an awful lot. Seems like enough to have 5 differnt servers with like 20,000 people. Am I missing something? Are people reregistering or something? Old users that never return? Still seems like WAY to many to have made an impact if they did leave.

some are real people, some are people who were here for a day then never came back, some were here for a while then left, some are for login accounts and some are spam bots.


EQ is dying, that = eqemu is dying, were fighting to keep it alive but interest in general is just not there.

It's not that its dying, it's that some of us are killing it. And it all starts with the log in server.
The "Official EqEmu Log in server" needs much more attention - it needs to be broken down into about three areas: "Preferred" which are legit servers that stay as close to live as possible (Legit PvP included). "Custom - Legit" servers (speaks for itself), and finally, "everything goes" servers.
We shouldn't be promoting "make your own server" on EqEmu login any more. anyone who wants to work off the log in servers, should have to put in a request for approval - the reason for this is so we know, *you* know WTF you're doing before you debute your server on the EqEmu public log in.
Mini-Login works fine, you can even get the "IpFixer" and play with friends on the net via your LAN. *This* is what we should be promoting for new-bees (so they can learn all about this before they go on to the public log in).
This would give the "casual" Everquest player a better impression of what we have and might build the player base. If the player-base grows, so will the interest in the code.
This is just the "tip of the iceburg". We would need a group of people (not just one), Watching over the "official servers" with some sort of "code of honor" for everyone envolved to follow.
I wonder if we still have anyone at all? or am I just another "pipe-dreamer" beating on a dead horse?

I have to disagree with Angelox here... Perhaps doing as he said but making a 4th category of 'untrusted and/or unreported servers' so that people can still use the public login server rather than having to figure out minilogin, and in that case we can label the 4th category such as to warn people that they are getting into something that is completely unknown by the rest of the community so as to not reflect upon us...

I would have never joined the emu project if I had to use minilogin... /shrug just not my style, and I think you'd discourage alot of other people if you forced their hands like that... you can argue that we don't want those people (/cry) but for an idea that is suppose to grow our player base that seems like the wrong way to go...

Just my two cents worth tho, who knows? ;)

I would not portend to change something because I was granted some power within just a few days, I would at least wait until the general population had gotten use to my role in smaller capacities. That said, there are people that use the PublicLogin to allow their friends to play with them that are NOT on LAN. and as such most of them keep their servers locked. A fire that rises the fastest burns out the quickest .

To start with, I don't have any power to change anything - and everyone knows where I always have came from with my ideas.
I didn't say this to start anything, it's just the way it is, and my opinion on why EqEmu is on its way out.
This isn't even a new idea - I'm also a Diablo player, and this is the way Diablo is played: multiple categorys: Expansion, Hardcore, "anything goes", Ladder, and home-box. All but home-box are supported/hosted by Blizzard.
And players of all types flock to all the categorys.
This would display some interest and organization , might even attract some more players of other types.

From an ex-developer (and dare i say it senior member round here) point of view, the project is being hampered by several factors : Lack of live compatibility, Lack of patches to make live compatible, No lead developer anymore, only one person (doodman) in control over the login server, releases not tested in the proper manner.

Lack of ability for new players to play without spending cash on the right cd is hurting the project pretty bad, lets face it most people that want to use the emulator want to use it so they DON'T have to spend money. Going out and buying CDs defeats this. Lack of patch files available for these players makes it hard. Times have changed and this philosophy probably needs to be re-evaluated.

There seems to be no active lead developer to recruit new people, to set goals for which developer works on what portion of code, what needs to be done etc. This leads to things getting worked on that don't really matter or are non essential.

Back in the day before the degradation of the project we the login server in several hands (Mine, LE, Image). We could modify update and run the login servers as needed.

Lack of testing of new releases is a huge problem, FNW drops a new version (with a new # even) and doesn't test it on windows. Thats a huge problem. Back in the day releases weren't done till tested to be working on BOTH platforms in a reasonable manner. Again this could be due to no real project lead.

All in all the project is in a sad state, the current people that are in charge don't care anymore really and its rather sad. EQEMu was my baby for a long time, as with many of the other developers that have come and gone breaks my heart to see what has been done to her.

Just an FYI on the client. I've never used Titanium. I'm still using the last good patch that was emu-compatible on the old client, from when it said not to patch after 9-13. The only trade-offs are I can't see certain newer models and I can't see links sent from a Titanium client, and I find that neither of those issues are all that bothersome. And since nothing seems to be implemented past OoW, I'm not missing any zones (so far).

You know, one reason I started working on a client back in 2003 was because I realized way back then that the process of trying to keep up with live was quickly becoming untenable. It's not that it can't work in principle, it's just that it was clear that the resources such an effort requires simply weren't there anymore. Too many developers had fled. I saw our own client as the only way that something like EQEmu could survive long-term with the level of developer resources being granted it.

That's not to say that there aren't trade-offs: many people come to EQEmu to play EQ, but I decided that my client, at least, should stay away from EQLive content. I tried putting myself in SOE's shoes for a moment and I figured that they would be forced to go after EQEmu in that case, and decided that a client should be 100% legally safe from them. It's made the effort easily twice as hard as it would otherwise be, since I've had to not only create content but the means to create it, but it's just about there now. I really should say it *is* there -- it's playable with the limited content it has, though it's buggy. Like EQEmu, it requires more resources than it currently has, but it at least offers us something of an out if people would be willing to put some effort into it.

Cavedude has been beta-testing it for several months on his own server, though he is notoriously hard to get a hold of and I don't know how it's going. Scorpoius2K has offered MANY MANY times to use his already-built custom server with the client, and I made sure two years ago that the client is compatible with it. Put the two together and they simply work. No CD's to buy, nothing. Just download and run. The only issue is content, specifically mob models -- Scorp's servers were built expecting that all of the SOE content would be available, which isn't the case with just SimpleClient. In my opinion, here is where resources could have a huge effect -- adapt Scorp's custom zones to what content we have right now, and get a server running. Even with its current bugs, SimpleClient could be released today -- it works, given a server for it.

I tend to vent to Scorp from time to time (grin) and I've been saying for years that I need help from the devs -- I need someone to set up a server, with appropriate levels of content, and provide hosting support for it -- sort of an offically blessed EQEmu-SimpleClient server. Don't worry about the login server -- Doodman and I already worked out a protocol and the LS supports it. Short of inventing our own encryption, that part is done. I can't work on SimpleClient AND work on OpenZone (which I'm having to do right now for v7.7 to make mob modeling easier) AND create content for SimpleClient (spectres at the moment) AND deal with a server. GeorgeS has been a godsend getting me mob models to work with, but I still have to rig and animate them all, and I still have to get OpenZone to the point where others can take mob modeling chores over from me (this means features AND tutorials). If we want to talk about developer/EQEmu "offical" resources, then I can honestly say that there's something you can do in the very short term and from my standpoint it's definitely a "help needed" situation. The point is that there is at least one way out of some of the difficulties you mention, but I've reached the point where I can't move the ball much farther forward by myself.

All make good points. There are way to many servers that do absolutly nothing, so you cant really bring people together to make a good community. There are a handful that visit this board reguarly but most just come and go.

There are not near the members involved as there was when I was here along time ago. Back then we were chasing LIVE and it was great, becuase the dev team was working and pumping out patchs right and left. Things were great, there were alot of servers, but each server had a good population on it. GW, WR to name a couple. But things have severly gone down hill.

I dont belive that lack of a dev team, lack of orginization and lack of other things here at the Emu are all to blame. If there was any way we could see active users still using EQ Live, you will see that number is very small now a days. The game just simply is outdated, and when sat side by side with current MMO's, it fails in comparison.

"But nothing matches the challenge of EQ" some may say. Vanguard is currently the closest to EQ in terms of difficulty. It is a grind intensive, wait and camp style, like the original EQ. But I think the kicker now is mostly the graphics and gameplay. Newer MMO's look great, and a big kicker for me is the combat system of the new ones. I dont like to just click attack and watch the health meters go down, I like to be involved in it. EQ has some options you can do while you battle, but you just click Bash, Kick, Slam ect... thats it. It was great at its time because of the sweet world that it was, but that was then.

Maybe I'm speaking for myself, maybe others share my views, but this is what I belive and what I feel. Eq was great to me for a long time, but I have my eyes set on the newer models now. I think others feel the same way.

Why not make the client an open scource?

I think your project is amazing as it provides the ablility to customize things far beyond sony's client. Creating a completly new game based on the current structure is very possible. It's too bad there is a lack of interest in the development. I wish I could help.

The problem is cheating. If it's open source there's nothing stopping cheaters from going crazy, and believe me, now that I've written one I can see all kinds of ways that cheaters could take advantage. So as much as I would like to make it open source, I doubt that it can happen for the really important parts (though many parts CAN be open-sourced, such as the netcode, content loader, 3D engine, collision avoidance, etc.). By the way, SimpleClient uses the same engine as OpenZone, so if you downloaded OZ then you already have all the 3D engine and collision avoidance code...

One question that I need answered, and only the devs can do this for me, is how to enforce client upgrades. As we fix bugs, close exploits, etc. there needs to be a way that ensures that people upgrade. It's ironic that with our own client we find ourselves in the same position as SOE, but there you have it. So anyhow I need an answer to that before I/we release it.

Edit: Someone will definitely get the full source, if nothing else to ensure the longevity of the client. I have no idea who that will be, as I haven't thought about it, but that will have to be another dev discussion. Whoever gets it will definitely need to have Delphi 6 or 7 (the personal version would be just fine). It can also be ported to newer versions -- I once ported it to Delphi 2006 but I hated D2006 so much that I dropped it and went back to D6.

Ignorance IS bliss, isn't it?

As for the discussion, and Angelox' initial response, I happen to agree. The loginserver here is a mess. And what emu admins truly deserve is a way to run their own loginserver apart from eqemulators.net. If that is Minilogin, then Minilogin needs to be extended to allow more than 1 server.

Comparing EQEmu to WoW in any capacity makes no sense, because it is brand new (by comparison), and there are literally hundreds of people involved in code, database, and general aspects of that community. It's "new", and EQ is "old". New new kids on the block don't care for EQ's outdated gfx so much, so it is definitely an old-schooler game. And I still love it. Hell, I run a server and I still play legit from level 1 on occasion just to feel the original excitement...

I do not imagine things will change overnight... but what I would hate to see is "we're done here, nothing more to do. open source, knock yourselves out". I feel that coming, and it makes me sad that I am not a better coder. But, what I got is fun, and people play and seem to enjoy themselves.

I feel the whole game is in fact dying, due to the core of the live game itself, comparing it to the "whoa pretty" gfx of newer games. (I love my Antrix server, too... hah pretty).

Call me a new kid on the block, but I like the newer graphics of EQ2. I really cant say a whole lot of nice things about WoW, as I dont like there cartoonish style models. I have a nice computer that can handle games like EQ2 at full tilt and I love it. The shading, lighting, particle effects, mapping ect.. its all just great to have as it makes it feel better.

But Im not all about graphics. The biggest thing that got me on EQ2 was all the new features. Guild Manangment, the new UI, combat system ect.. When I think of EQ, I think of how I used to just click Attack and watch, get the xp, and move on. I couldnt do quest all that much because I didnt want to have to sit down and write down what I was doing, and where I was going next. Newer MMO have the quest log, a way to help you along on your questing.

I guess I am a new kid and not a old schooler, but I spent many many sleepless nights with EQ, and no game has ever deprived me of a life more. I still like to kick back and play EQ when I am in that old mood, but I find myself burnt out on it no matter how long I go with a break.

Ahh sigh....

Although it's not as busy as it's been back in '02!, the people that are still here are hard core fans of EQ.

What keep me playing after all this time, like any game I enjoy is to relive the 'live' experiences from way back then on my server, and really enjoy that.

I think there has to be a re-org of the code and establishment so we can plan what needs to be done. It feels like we are running a business without a plan and CEO. I'm willing to help code the emu, but C++ is not my strength. Unfortunately there's no written details on how to make diffs or figure out structs in the source.

I will however remain as the toolman here - as that is my niche, and good tools are like good food - make you feel good inside!

GeorgeS

GeorgeS, you are on the money. Not so much a complete re-write, or re-structuring, but something needs to be done to allow more people to easily play this emulator, or it may not survive. I do agree the old school, "love EQ for EQ" players are still here and always will be. But in order to draw new attention to those who's first game may not have been EQ, but something else and they want to test-drive what it was like to REALLY have to play a game properly... hunting down nearly extinct copies of Titanium, and the cumbersome setup of the emu leaves a bad taste. Wow that was a run-on statement.

Anyway. For the last year, I have been absorbing EQEmu code, as well as comparing it to many other MMO emulators that seem to be a little more 'modern'. My hopes are that I will suddenly learn something that makes sense and I too can start making C++ changes where needed. I'm totally into it, just lack some of the basic knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, anyone Dev'ing EQEmu. This thing kicks ass, and I for one am very greatful to have discovered it. But, I seriously believe we need more dev attention (from more devs, not the current overworked ones :)) and to make things simpler (I am working on one solution now, almost done!)

-J

I must say, I guess I am not like the usual EQEmu user. I never really wanted to relive the "glory days" of EQ. I wanted to play something new, and more importantly, using the zones, models, etc. present in EQ, I wanted to create something new. I wanted to be able to create my own world. The fact that EQEmu doesn't patch to live is a big problem. Because of this, I must agree with Amra regarding open-sourcing. I know Wind spoke of cheating if they were to do this, but if the login server code was released, and people were able to set up their own logins separate from EQemu.net's server list, then I don't view it as so much of a problem (for instance, make sure the servers on EQEmu Login are "official", and if you want to hack and change your client, then use the released login server. The minilogin helps, but you are limiting the community by forcing them to use your login server).

A perfect example of this already exists. The most popular EQEmu server out there is a world where they took the client/server and changed it and were able to create their own world. Now I understand that they do things that are considered "illegal" here, and because of that just naming them is enough to get a thread closed, but come on. At any given time they have more players on their server than all of the "official" servers on EQEmu.net combined. Obviously they are doing something right, whether or not anyone here is willing to admit it.

It is my hope that EQ2Emu will end up having a released Login server, and that it gets more backing from developers than EQEmu currently has. If this turns out to be the case, then hopefully I will be able to create my vision there, since I am just not capable of doing it with the current EQEmu.

The reason the login server code will never be released is due to the encryption stuff in there that would impose on Live servers - which would bring the thought police down on EQEmu and it would be very bad.

However, a dev responsible for updating it, changing it, making it more flexible and available itself, would be nice. Too bad for all those disassemblers. :)

Originally it was kept secret not for fear of "police", but because if we had released it sony would change it, and thats a major pain in the ass to fix.

One thing I'd like to point out is that SimpleClient uses entirely its own LS protocol. Doodman's LS supports it, but SimpleClient connects to it using a separate port and it goes through a totally different code path. One possibility for open-sourcing the client might be to implement our own encryption on the SimpleClient LS protocol and use a closed-source code module for it. Then we might be able to release every part of the client except that part, which would let people compile their own clients for use with their own servers. We would have to also release an open-source version of a LS that only SimpleClient could talk to (minus encryption), but that shouldn't be a problem (I've already written a simple one that's sort of like Minilogin). I'd really like to hear the devs' take on this idea.

Does SOE still use the same encryption on LIVE knowing that EQEmu uses it also. I find that really hard to belive, as you would think that they would change that to something similar to EQ2 and update all the clients.

I know I'm fairly new to the EQEmu scene, but just got myself together and got my server up and running, my goal is to build a custom server with custom content, expanding as the server grows...

Anyway, back to my reason for posting, have to agree that if EQEmu remains tied to a CD copy of EQ (Titanium), and access to that CD becomes restricted - its not sold over the counter anywhere I know of anymore. Then logically you're new player base will dry up, especially if they know they can go out and quite easily obtain other game emulators. To me this would sort of explain largely a dwindling player base - can folks still get hold of the Titanium Client - if not, doesnt it make sense to move to a newer client version (and I know this isnt as easy or straightforward as it might sound)?

Xavius

The devs are playing with a newer Anniversary Edition as a base, but it might take some time to sort it all out. The source code shows the beginnings of it, but some have reported it's just not ready yet.

As for "dwindling populations", for me only being around a year I have to say the populations appear way UP right now from one year ago. I used to see servers with all 0's or 1-3 players online, except some of the preferred ones which were still not that impressive. Now, you can total nearly 200-300 players at any given time. To me, that seems like an increase.

This emu might never see it's SOE C&D days again, but I am happy it's around for when that dark day comes that EQLive is no longer worth SOE's budget. That's really all this is about to me.

Sorry if I'm a couple of weeks late, but I just noticed this thread. I believe that enforcing client upgrades is the simpliest of the problems you are facing. The way EQ2 does it, is that the client sends its version number to the login server before it logs in. If the version number is too old it cant login. You could do something similiar. Another thing you could do is just randomly change opcodes every patch to prevent old clients from working :)

Why will the end of Everquest Live be the dark days. Sure, a lot of people are still invested in the game, but at the current rate, Everquest is digging itself a grave. People don't leave a game because they are overjoyed. People leave because they are tired of the same. The end of Everquest Live will only mean a population increase here and more people willing to lend a hand. Do you still play EQLive?

-Wizzel

Wizzel, if you are going to follow me around the forums and openly disagree with everything I say, I am going to develop a chronic dickhead complex. ;)

If you are honestly asking why I think EQ's closure will be "a dark day", it is merely for the nostalgia of the game from a day when it WAS playable and enjoyable by so many for so long. Dark Day = End of an Era, which I guess to most has already happened.

As for my play time, I definitely do not "play" like I used to... but I am a guild leader still, and login regularly if for nothing more than to make my presence known and chat with the very few remaining friends I have that still log in.

Agreed. :(