vBulletin Assholes

[DeletedUser]

Here's the emails that were sent between myself, the eqemu.net server owner, and antipiracy@vbullietin.com. Please keep in mind, I believed we were running a legal copy (and I have been told infact that we were running a leased copy).

Original Email:

Received:12/7/02 2:35:39 PM
From: antipiracy@vbulletin.com
To: xxxxxxxxx
CC: licensing@vbulletin.com, xxxxxxxxx
Subject: vBulletin Software Licensing


LEGAL RESEARCH ASSOCIATES, LP
P.O. Box 11133
Bakersfield, CA 93389-1133
(661) 832-5757 E-mail: antipiracy@vbulletin.com

December 7, 2002

Re: vBulletin Software Licensing at http://forums.eqemu.net/

Hi Daniel,

We are the Internet Copyright Enforcement agents for Jelsoft Enterprises,
LTD, the publishers of vBulletin software.

It has come to our attention that you are using vBulletin version 2.2.6
software to operate the forum on your website, and we were unable to locate
a valid license in Jelsoft's database authorizing your use of the
software. Additionally, it appears as though you have unlawfully removed
the publisher's copyright notices from the page templates and substituted
text indicating that the copyrights are owned by "Everquest, Inc." (Removal
of the copyright notices & posting fraudulent copyright notices are both
criminal offenses under Federal Law.)

If you believe that your web site has a valid license to use vBulletin
software, please promptly contact chris@vbulletin.com and provide your
licensing information so that Jelsoft's records may be corrected.

PLEASE NOTE: If you own a valid license and failed to register the URL
where the software is in use at the "member" section of the vbulletin.com
website (as is required by the license agreement), your site may appear to
be "unlicensed" in the database.

If you are unable to provide evidence of a valid site license and desire to
continue using vBulletin, you are requested to purchase or lease a license
to use vBulletin software at http://forums.eqemu.net/

vBulletin licenses may be purchased on-line: http://www.vbulletin.com/order.php

within TEN (10) days from the date of this Notice.

If you do purchase a license, the copyright notices MUST be restored.

OR

Immediately Cease and Desist from using vBulletin software at the web
site(s)/domain(s) referenced above. (Your "upstream" host is EV1.net - and
they would be quite happy to remove yet another unlicensed copy of vBulletin.)

vBulletin Order Options

Leased License - $85
A leased license grants you the right to run vBulletin on one web server
and one web site for each license purchased for 1 year from date of order.
Each license may power one instance of vBulletin on one domain. During the
year, you will have unlimited access to the member area, where you can
download updated versions of the software. At the end of the year, you must
purchase another license in order to continue to run vBulletin.

Owned License - $160
An owned license grants you the right to run on one web server and one web
site for each license purchased for an unlimited time. Each license may
power one instance of vBulletin on one domain. Included in this package is
one year's access to the member area, where you can download updated
versions of the software. If you require access to the member area after
the year has elapsed, you can renew your access for $30 per year.

For more information about vBulletin licenses, please email
<mailto:sales@vbulletin.com>sales@vbulletin.com.
By purchasing this software, you agree to adhere to the
<http://www.vbulletin.com/license.html>license agreement.

Your cooperation and assistance in this matter would be most appreciated.

Regards,

C. David Gurley, Esq.
License Enforcement

[DeletedUser]

Now, I usually try to check my email 2 - 3 times a day, even more if I can, but I wasn't able to as I wasn't around my house on Saturday when this was sent. I read it Sunday, and immediately removed the software and switched to phpBB. Now, I tried to format the message as they had it above, yes, they did have that section italics like it was posted. Now, the overall tone of the message offended me, and anybody that knows me, I hate authority.

Here was my reply.

Received:12/8/02 7:26:18 PM
From: "Daniel Harris" <>
To: antipiracy@vbulletin.com
Subject: RE: vBulletin Software Licensing
As this was given to us by a developer, I thought it was a license bought for us. I have removed it.

Also, you can stop being such an ass. I had thought this was licensed for us. I guess trusting someone can't be done now. I hope you have surgery soon to remove the stick from your ass. Because of your message tone, I will not be buying your software now. Thank you for letting me know the tone of the company before it was too late.

Daniel Harris

[DeletedUser]

I then received this email back the same day.

<email>
Received:12/8/02 9:47:12 PM
From: antipiracy@vbulletin.com
To: "Daniel Harris" <>
CC: licensing@vbulletin.com
Subject: RE: vBulletin Software Licensing


December 8, 2002

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for removing the unlicensed copy of vBulletin.

While we much prefer that a site purchase a license (as over 600 web sites
have done in the past six months), having a site remove the unlicensed
software (as you & a thousand or so other webmasters have done in the past
six months) is preferable to our having to take formal legal action and
have a site shut down for copyright infringement (as we have done in
several hundred other cases).

Regards,
Chuck Gurley
</email>

OMG! 600 in the last 6 months? As I write this, our last 7 days of downloads has been 3187. 3187 people have downloaded our software in the last 7 days... not last 6 months. Now, I know in November we had over 3 million hits to the webpages, mostly to our forums. I guess we are more popular than them. But wait, it gets better.

[DeletedUser]

I catch wind of a person being mismailed that has nothing to do with eqemu.net. Checkout how this email is worded.

<email>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: antipiracy@vbulletin.com [mailto:antipiracy@vbulletin.com]
>Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 3:42 PM
>To: XXXXXX
>Subject: vBulletin Software Licensing

>

>Hi xxx -
>
>This is provided as a "heads up" in case your customer does not wish to comply ;-)
>
>Regards,
>Chuck Gurley
</email>

No, you are not seeing things. That is a winky face at the end of the line. Why would someone put such a thing in a professional email? Maybe they are smug? I feel they are unprofessional. Then, they threatened the hoster DMCA action against us if we didnt remove it, and this was in an email today!

<email>
----- Original Message -----
From: antipiracy@vbulletin.com
To: Jonathan Dallion
Cc: xxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: vBulletin Software Licensing


December 11, 2002

Hi Jonathan,

We ran a standard trace-route on www.eqemu.net which returned information indicating that the site was (and still is) running on IP 216.127.82.118, Node Name: eramnotes.com. According to the WHOIS, the hosting domain's contact is Rob xxxxx (xxxxx).

Under the circumstances, I'm not sure what "error" we are supposed to apologize for.

The "upstream" provider is EV1.net - and we could simply file a DMCA Notice of Copyright Infringement with them, which would result in Mr. Malcolm's site being disabled, even though he was personally unaware of a problem. Out of common courtesy, we felt that it would be appropriate to give the "host" notice that there was a problem with a site running via his domain server. The WHOIS contained no information indicating that you were the web host, nor that you are the owner of the "IP block".

I can assure you that we are "literate"; we just don't happen to be psychic, as well.

Regards,
Chuck Gurley
</email>


That to me is still a threat to shut down the server. I hope you have found this enjoyable reading, and hope that you will decide not to renew your yearly licenses. You can get phpBB (our new board system), which actually has a processor load than the original software., at www.phpbb.com. They even have a database converter to convert from this company's subpar, overpriced product, and have your new forum system running in under 20 minutes (took myself 15 minutes to convert the forums to useable, with 23950 posts and 4000+ topics).

[DrEvil]

Just FYI http://www.invisionboard.com/ is a very good and very free bulletin board as well. We use it on our site and its pretty awesome.

http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~foxbot/forum/index.php?s=

[Slayer02]

OMFG, those guys at are such asses :-( o well, phpbb looks better :-)

[Shawn319]

they should go bankrupt and rot in hell!

btw, i like this forum ALOT better. even without the old EQEmu style (i choose to leave it on Subsilver).

[kunta]

I love the "Do what I say or my Big Brother will beat you up" attitude of companys on the internet. Hell they should just be happy that someone is actually using their software. Most companies that I deal with would send you a "Could you please notify us with your current license info. We think that maybe there is a problem with your copy", instead they come off and say "Screw you, we are going to shut you down cause we are cool and have the DMCA for a big brother." VERY UNPROFESSIONAL

[Aspirax]

Heh,

I think you over-reacted.
Look from their perspective.

They have customers ripping them off, thety assume you are one.

They send you a nice formal letter on what to do about it.
You *thought* you were legit, and you were not.
This isn't a reason to attack them.

*shrug* and I didn't take any of those messages as threats to shutdown the server.

Just another guys view.

[Trumpcard]

OR

Immediately Cease and Desist from using vBulletin software at the web
site(s)/domain(s) referenced above. (Your "upstream" host is EV1.net - and
they would be quite happy to remove yet another unlicensed copy of vBulletin.)

I'd take that as a threat... Remove it or we'll do it for you..

That was the slap in the face from my perspective.. They should have just left it as it was with the licensing options, then a followup letter in a month if there was no compliance. The *esquire* that wrote this letter template obviously doesnt know how to sweet talk a prospective client.... A little tact would have taken them a long way...

[Aspirax]

I was talking about when hogie said this:
"That to me is still a threat to shut down the server. "

It was in reference to Chuck discussing the fact that if they didn't comply he would have the hosting company comply for you (or whatever)

Personally, was Hogie a prospective client? If he got a nice email that said "You're using unlicensed software, please buy it".

Would he:
a) give attitude
b) buy it
c) got to phpBB anyway.

Probably both a+c :)
Just like this time. heh

[Nivisec]

I had no idea vBulletin was so expensive. I haven't a clue how they make money when so many free "better" alternatives actually exist.

I'm partial to phpBB though because of the very high community support for making mods to it. I was a major mod maker from the start of 2.0 RC-1 basically, but had to turn over my popular mods to someone else around 2.0.0 because of school :( I have no clue what the community is doing as of right now, but there are probably some good mods out and I'm sure my old Statistics mod is uber-nice thanks to Acyd Burn keeping it up now :)

Anyway, point being that phpBB is open source so much nicer things can be done with it :)

http://rvr.nivisec.com/
http://ds.nivisec.com/

Here are two examples of using phpBB as a back end for a site actually. Those are old defunct sites of mine that were very popular at one time, but as my interest in the games went away so did visitors :)

I'm left with only one personal project (i.e. being paid for) and one more final this semester. Since I have tons of background in php, mysql, and phpBB I could probably help with this part of the project if so desired.

I love EQ, but got completely bored with the live servers because of the constant politics between guilds and the competition even in your own guild if it is one of the major ones. Plus the fact I am 100% powergamer and don't wanna play if I can't be one due to time restraints :) I got my damn $10($12)/month worth!

I'd love to help with the actual project, but I just don't have the time currently to look through all the code.

[Lyenu X`Arie]

I would have to agree with both sides. It is true that vBulletin are very money hungry, and charge WAY to much for a bulletin board system. But you have to say to yourself, if you were developing software which was your sole income, would YOU getting a little annoyed when you find THOUSANDS of people not paying for your software? I know I would be, and so would anyone else, because it adds up to a lot of money over time. But if they were to lower their prices, they'd STILL be making the same income with how many new costumers they would get! Ahhh well, companies don't think, their loss.

[Slayer02]

*OFF-TOPIC Lyenu, I thought you left emu a long time ago???

[DeletedUser]

VBulletin is the only bulletin board system I know that charges money for you to run it yourself. If they are able to hire anti-piracy groups to hunt down people using VBulletin 'illegally' I think they are doing fine.

[DeletedUser]

to add: why should an open source project making no profit pay for a bulletin board system??

[Zeitgeist]

howdy =) I've been using phpbb since 1.4, love it =) Honestly I thought the letter from vBullshittin was hostile too. If I were a licensed cust I would not renew if they came at me with that much hostility. Luckily I've been a phpBB user for a long time and don't plan on switching now =)

-Z.

[Pneu]

Zeit! OMFG!

*meows*

Pneu

PS: We play on same server and used to be guildies...

[Lurker_005]

Yea pretty tacky and hostile apraoch to license issues. Do the people that write these believe they are more effective / legally binding if they sound rude and hostile?

In my eyes an apropriate apprach is:

Our records do not show your site as a valid licensed site
If this is a clerical error and you believe you have a valid copy, please update records/send info to us
If you have not licensed our software, you have the following 2 choices. You may buy a license for our software. This is our prefered solution. Or you may cease using our product, and remove it from your web page.

In the unfortunate event that this has not been resolved in 30 days we will be forced to resort to legal action.

Any how PHPBB seems to be a good opensource replacement.

[seqmage]

They would have gotten a letter back saying...

Thank you for your intrest in my bullitin board. You can purchace a copy for 150.00.

Then thank them for taking the time to admire the work..lol.

they diserved that much....

phpBB looks nicer anyway.. so no harm done.

[Slayer02]

I thought you left too image

[Korisha]

I've delt with companys like vBulletin before, and trust me, that wasnt just an idle threat, thier favorite reaction to suspected "copyright infringement" is usually alot worse then just a letter, as for the 600 in the last month, did you happen to notice how many DIDNT renew thier license for thier software THOUSANDS in the last 6 months, you would think that would tell them something about thier software... anyway thier favorite response is to just DEMAND that your host drop your site immediately, or they start by taking action against them, then you, then if that doesnt work, they go after your DNS register, and yes I have seen reports of them doing it, more then once.....

I personally think Hoggy restrained himself quiet well when it came to thier e-mails

[Lyenu X`Arie]

Image: Yeah, point taken and I agree =).
Slayer02: Yes, but just because I'm not a dev doesn't mean I can't help out I decided, so I'll be releasing some things soon (mainly the new version of the GUI Packet Collector, once I finish a few features and test it a lot more throughly than last time). PS: I hope the tone of this didn't seem hostile to you slayer, just couldn't think of another way to word it better.

[Slayer02]

I see, no not hostile at all :-) Just kind of new now (I quit back when you had taken away the domain name yada yada yada) hehe, so was kind of confused because when I left alot of people hated you lol... not being offensive just curious

[KamiKazeTG]

Personally, if they would have tried that shit with my sites..
I would have let them try it. Then, after they waste a few dollars and time on trying to shut down my servers (Which, btw, my host is owned by..my company..lol..and my dns is..oh gee..owned by the same company) then I would have switched to phpBB and threw out a mass forwarded message to every vBulletin user I could find on google..making sure to send a CC to vBulletin staff.
But, then again, I'm an asshole.

[Trumpcard]

Well, I can't say I blame them in their reaction, its completely natural, but their tone and methods really sucked.

I don't care if you own your own company or not Kamikaze, copyrighted software is copywrited software, and a legally valid C&D letter upstream of you will end up costing you downtime on your servers till you get it worked out.. (I've been there , trust me, never think because you have an LLC, that completely isolates you from liability.)

It doesnt matter who owns your DNS names either, I've seen a letter from a lawyer to Network Associates get a DNS name yanked. It can and does happen (Happened to ToysRGus.com once because ToysRUs thought they should own them all)