Recent patch?

[Nanwedar]

hello i was just wondering is it ok to patch live to the current release (11/05/03) or will it affect the useage of eqmu?

p.s i'm sorry if this was posted somewhere else and i missed it or whatnot i didn't see anything about it

[arkaria]

Hmmm seems there was a patch today. Who knew :)

He is asking about today's new patch ... I don't think there are lots of threads about this, in fact I don't think I have seen one, but I may have overlooked it.

[devn00b]

New patch broke EQEMU, seems to be an easy fix so far and we are working hard on getting it fixed

[arkaria]

Idea...

Maybe I'm wrong but here goes:

Would it not be faster to put a freeze on client patchs (starting with this patch say) and get the server running for this client version? Then work on keeping up with minor patchs.

[devn00b]

It would be, and image and myself have suggested it. But atm its just not that way

[arkaria]

Do the other Devs not agree that this is a good idea? Or just havn't had the time to implement it?

[a_Guest03]

arkaria, that's a brilliant idea. It gets done all the time. Unfortunately, many people don't follow the news and don't hold off on their patches, and 50 newbies come in here bitching about how it doesn't work with live.

Most of the time, they fix the minor patches, in which minor things are busted. They only freeze for a long time when encryption changes to something that nobody can figure out, or when packetstructures change dramatically.

Based on previous work that /dev/noob and image have done, it won't be long in the sense of months, but may be as long as weeks.

[Edgar1898]

only a few changes have been made, mainly opcode changes (ALL of them were changed heh). Its been fixed tho

[a_Guest03]

Sorry I forgot to include you, Lethal. I have trouble telling which devs are active and which are mostly afk.

[Edgar1898]

NP, I'm usually not one that needs attention...usually :P

The fixes will be pushed to cvs whenever TC gets a chance to, last time I checked stuff into the anonymous cvs, I messed up his scripts heh :)

[arkaria]

So you figure it's worth it to worry about small patchs when some major stuff is not working yet?

I would have thought it would be more productive to ignore small patchs and just get averything working.

I know alot of people seem to patch when they shouldn't (that's their problem) but I would think that it would be easier for the Devs to just work with one client version until everything is pretty much working then start adding support for new patchs.

[Edgar1898]

OK lets hit these points one at a time:

1. You have no idea what your talking about. Warez is ILLEGAL. Can you repeat that after me? I-L-L-E-G-A-L. The goal of this project is to make an everquest server that has as many features as possible, if we didnt stay current how are we supposed to get packet logs to fix stuff? How are we supposed to catch up again when we are 12 patches behind? Who is going to do it? You? No, I didnt think so....

2. You have no right to tell me or any other dev how they should spend their free time. You didnt specifically say that, but you alluded to it by your sarcastic comments.

3. What *MAJOR STUFF* are you talking about?!? There is nothing major that doesnt work.

4. We owe you NOTHING. We dont work for you, you should be thankful we do anything at all. You can come and go as you please, nothing is stopping you. You dont like it? Tough, there is the door.

I might take a couple months off and let the emu sit unfinished just to spite you and your rude ass.

[kathgar]

Aside from the issues previously stated, going to a frozen version to live would be ever more difficult with every patch. Rewriting a large portion of your codebase is never fun.

[DeletedUser]

Can't we all just get along. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[arkaria]

All I can say is Wow Edgar.

You really really need to chill out.

First I'm going to agree with you, I didn't tell anyone how they should spend their time. Where you saw that I have no idea. As for the sarcasm... Can't say that I see any. I certainly didn't intend to sound sarcastic.

Next who the hell said anything about Warez? That's commin' right out of left field. Not sure where you got that from.

I never said you owe me or anyone anything. Maybe you should re-read my posts. I think it's great what you guys are doing.

All I did was ask a question. One that other devs seemed to have taken seriously and where responding to.

To be honest I really don't see why you have flown off the handle here.

I guess all I can say is sorry. What I said seems to have come across wrong.

* edit spelling

[mangoo]

You need to learn when to shut the hell up and not mess with Lethal.

[Edgar1898]

You were talking about putting a "freeze" on a patch. Doing that would require sending ppl old files that they didnt own the copyright for, aka warez. If you didnt mean your comments as sarcasism I apologize, but it sounded to me like you were asking a rhetorical question for sarcasism. But I do stand by what I said, we do this in our free time, if you want to help then do so, but we arent going to purposely be outdated from live, especially when nothing major isnt working.

[cybermax]

I hope i dont step on anyones toes by saying this.. but i think keeping up to "Live" state is what all the devs have been working very hard at doing since the 0.44 servers (wich required eq from a year back).. so if you say they should "freeze" once again, all the work they done getting from the 1 year old eq client up to date again with many many patches inbetween had to be done all over again..

Nah.. Devs.. keep up what you doing.. You have come this far with a lot of hard work.. and you will definately keep it going :)

Good job!!

[arkaria]

I never thought it would be a good idea to send EQ files to anyone though I guess it might have sounded like I was saying something along those lines.

As for the freezing of the client and developing for it. I'm not a dev on this project so if you say it's better/easier to keep up with EQLive then hey, it must be easier.

I really ment no offence and was not trying to tell anyone what they should or should not do.

Cheers to the devs

[a_Guest03]

ark, don't take it personally. I think Lethal was grouchy at some key words that you triggered, whether you meant it the way he heard it or not. There's a lot of history here around "freezing".

[Jerrysn]

Dealing with patches can be real catch 22-

On one hand, if you freeze the code for a specific EQLive patch, people who are just discovering EQEmu won't be *easily able* to play. But you would have usable code.

On the other hand, if you change the code for every patch, it could take alot of work and time anyway. But people new to EQEmu would stand a better chance to play.

Maybe I'm just restating the intuitively obvious.....

Prolly the best idea is to stick somewhere in the middle of these two options.

-Jerry

[Trumpcard]

How do you stick to the middle of patching or not patching the code?

Then we're at the same state... We can log in, but nothing works...

[ndnet]

For all the feeling against sending EQ's files and using outdated clients, it makes one rather curious as to why the patcher was brought back online--for just a host file? Just wondering, not criticizing ^.^; And while this isn't really the thread for it, thus I'll be brief, it'd be nice to eventually have a patcher to update the emu binaries once they're released.

It's a given that EQ will continue to patch and break the Emu, and that developers with free time will bring the emu back to functionality eventually. I'd imagine that those who are continuously updating the project would be able to best determine how they'd like to go about it based on their goals for the project.

It's obvious that basic compatibility with the live client is a big priority, for good reason. It should come as no surprise, then, that when a patch breaks the live client, attention becomes (seemingly, at least, from my perspective) more focused on bringing it back up to speed before working on the smaller systems of the emu.

Not to mention you get a lot less clam on the boards for not having combat complete than you do for not being able to log in entirely all of a sudden~

[brinks]

Things are going as well as they can be, people dont understand how hard it is to code a big project and keep it compatible with something that they have no control over. Everything will be done in due time.

No more time freezes IMO because I know how hard it is for newer people to play when they patched and you need a client 1 year older.

Props to devs, on a great job so far.

[Arcalyn]

my 2 copper
Because if I go AFK I'll have to do real work so typing this is better, maybe not for the viewers but for me. =)

Eventually I'll be working on a 'personal' version of the emu, mainly to learn, and if I was crazy enough to let other people test it out, I sure as poop wouldn't put up with any negativity nor would I tolerate any (shots in the dark) advice. The source is available, DL it and do like me, study it, learn it, code it, then come here and type your ideas; I'm sure they'd be all over you for help; like sweat on balls; if you deminstrated real understanding of coding and of the emulator.

Otherwise all your doing is what I'm doing right now, killing time so I don't have to get up outta my chair and do some RL stuff for a few more moments. People's advice? Ha! Why do you think companies that let people drop off something that needs repaired have their repair shop WAY in the BACK behind CLOSED employee only doors???? Because customer advice is (insert swear word of choice here) worthless! They are ignorant and naive about the repair / manufacturing process. People are dumb, if people were smart there would be VERY LITTLE difference between RICH and POOR we'd all be 'close' in pay rate or value.

Ok, my cigarette is extinguished, time for me to stop typing.

Until next time.......

(disclaimer - this post is not aimed at one person nor at many but just me killin time)

[Doodman]

Lately, since LDoN, most patches have been reasonably minor.

This last patch only set us back a few hours since it was mostly opcode changes and they were changed in a very consistant manor.

Yeah, the main reason to stay current with live even if it sets us back is we can't implement new stuff if we can't collect/test it.

That and if we can stay current it eliminates the need for the hotly contested issue of the patcher (don't ask).

If we every see another major change, and I mean major, that may change, but at this point it is much easier to stay current with live.

Doodman

[Scorpious2k]

You were talking about putting a "freeze" on a patch. Doing that would require sending ppl old files that they didnt own the copyright for, aka warez.

I was thinking... the patch program could just save off the current files somewhere on the player's computer the first time it is run. Then if EQ is changed, it pulls them back from the saved area and restores to the original state.

This would eliminate warez, since the player would have to have the files originally and it would only move them from the player's own backup area.

[mattmeck]

how would someone who starts playing 5 patches after the freeze get the files needed to play? if they dont patch they cant and if they patch they will be too far patched, and since they werent around to have the files "saved" they would have no way to get them.

[Rabaril]

Announcement: Do NOT post support/help threads here.

[mattmeck]

Rabaril, spamming threads with nothing pertaining to the thread is also against the rules.

[Rolk]

I used to paly EQEMU a looooong time ago, just started my account back up. It seems a lot easier to use than has in the past, and I commend the devs on that ;)

Out of curiosity, how long does it usually take for them to fix patches? I keep getting the 1017 error while trying to login to servers, and I'm assuming it's due to the recent patches in early Nov. Am I right?

[mattmeck]

EQEMU rule # 1, Do NOT ask for an ETA


EQEMU Rule #2 do NOT ask for an ETA

EQEMU Rule #3 the Devs = Gods

[Rolk]

how long does it usually take for them to fix patches?

Thank you for posting that rule matt, but I didn't ask for an ETA. I asked how long has it taken them in the past? There's a difference. :oops: [/code]

[mangoo]

The devs do a wonderful job of staying up with the patches. They figure them out quickly and a the new code is usually pushed to CVS a day or two after the new patches. You should see servers on the new patch shortly.

[mattmeck]

Mangoo was nice today, normaly he is like me and refuses to answer questions that are already answered in the forums, already answered and answered this morning at that.

[Rolk]

Sweet, thanks mangoo.

[mangoo]

:D

[Rolk]

ok matt

[Jerrysn]

You were talking about putting a "freeze" on a patch. Doing that would require sending ppl old files that they didnt own the copyright for, aka warez.

I was thinking... the patch program could just save off the current files somewhere on the player's computer the first time it is run. Then if EQ is changed, it pulls them back from the saved area and restores to the original state.

This would eliminate warez, since the player would have to have the files originally and it would only move them from the player's own backup area.

This is a pretty simple idea - I've even done it a couple of times for a couple of different reasons.

First make a copy of the EQ files in you EQEmu directory, we'll call this the EQEMU backup directory.

Next, patch to live and copy all the new files to the EQEmu directory, of course dont bother copying files that are the same size and date.

Finally copy the files from EQEmu backup directory back to youe EQEmu directory. Again don't bother with identical files.

Your mostly patched to EQLive, and have updated just what is needed and still able to log on.

-Jerry

[Jerrysn]

How do you stick to the middle of patching or not patching the code?

Then we're at the same state... We can log in, but nothing works...

Its just my opinion, that the most efficient thing to do is to not worry about new players get on with every patch at the exact moment a new patch occures.

Instead, take a month:
some developers working on tweaking the current EQEmu.
some devolopers find what needs to be updated for the current EQlive patch.

Accept the fact the people new to EQEmu might haveto wait a bit, make sure current user knows it is their reponsability to make a backup of the current working EQlive patch.

-Jerry

[a_Guest03]

Jerry, I hold you personally responsible for making the newbies pleasant when they come too late into a patching period.

:) Welcome to the wrecking crew. :twisted:

[Scorpious2k]

how would someone who starts playing 5 patches after the freeze get the files needed to play?

But it avoids the distribution of the files. That keeps it legal.

And there isn't a freeze exactly. More of a check-point. A time when the emu is known to be compatable with the client. As it is updated the patcher restores a more current version automatically. So it would be keeping backups of several releases of the client.

If a new person came in when it was broken, he would have to wait for the emulator to catch up to the oldest version of the client that he has. Maybe a "whine" button could be added to the gui to make it easier for them....

It isn't the best way to do it maybe, but it would be 100% legal and take the need for the player to keep track of what version he has and do it for him.

[Wumpas]

I have an idea that will avoid warez and still let everyone play with a non changing version possibly. Im not great at programming nor do i know the ins and outs of the eq file system so if this wont work disregard it. My idea is why can't we all buy the eq evolutions disk set and just use that as the base version non patched. never patched. any noob can buy the disks and its all legal. Is there any reson that this would not work?

[Purcevil]

um, minor comment Wumpas.

Do you know where the client was patched to when the Evolution master disks were sent to the publisher for manufacturing?

I know that I don't, but at a guess I'd say it was at least a few patches before they actually hit the market.

Plus, there are many that just plain refuse to spend yet another wad of $ on software they already have, just to get it in a prettier package.

Don't get me wrong, I think its a good idea, but I believe it to be outside the scope of EQemu's intent. Now if you could find people willing to do side developement it might be a different story.....

Anyway, afk again until the next go round.

[mangoo]

Who wants to buy more EQ CDs?

[Wumpas]

In reply to the above few posts I think the ability to be able to stop playing catch up and instead be able to work on the MANY little things like real eqlive like pathing and other goodies that may be in the scope of posibility if the devs didn't have to spend every waking miniute updating to LIVE. Sure LDON and anything newer wouldn't work but does it have to? Theres already alot of content up to this point and It's my feeling that it would be nice to see the blanks all filled in.

29 dollars is not much of a sacrifiece hours of coding to stay caught up to LIVE definatly is. If im totaly left base with this idea im sorry but id still like to know what the devs think about the idea. as far as what the patch status is on the cds would have to be figured out and the coding for the emu changed acordingly but after that No more catch up work !!! : ) then the devs could work on bigger better things. (aka everything else)

[mangoo]

In the last week, Grouping, Spells, Trading, AAs, and more things that I don't know about have been added to 5.0. That's along with 2 patches, so I don't see any arguement for those who say to freeze catching patches and to add more features. Only about 1% of the members on this board listen, so every time there is a patch there are 40 new posts about 1017 error and not being about to connect because of new patch. So why stay up with EQLive? Because if they didn't, no one would be able to play.

[Purcevil]

Wumpas, I see your point, don't believe that I don't. Also, I believe I said it was a good idea.

The problem is not the idea. The problem is, the dev's have set a course, and they intend to follow it. All of their efforts are aimed that way.

Try driving for 300 miles and then remembering a random signpost 200 miles or so back, chosen by a third party near the end of that trip. You would be hard pressed. Even if you had documented EVERYTHING continuously on the trip it might take days of research to find that exact signpost and the information contained on it.

So, with the dev's dedicated to making a good and working server that works for anyone that just happened to trip over the site, their time is used up. Period. They don't have the time to keep track of every patch for the last 6 weeks, let alone the last 6 months or even more.

To get a working server for any past release of the EQ client (as it comes out of the shrink wrap) might require months of research, even if you had the old server data to work from. Which equates to time the dev's don't have. And since they don't want to work in that direction anyway, the results would be less than optimal.

SOE makes changes regularly, partially in an attempt to keep interest level up for hardcore players, partially to attract new players, but I'm sure partially to thwart the efforts of devs like those you find here. The rules change almost constantly. That makes it impossible to test against old versions of the client. (Using the earlier example, its like having every trace of that signpost's existance erased except memories of it, and having to EXACTLY reproduce that signpost in every detail.) Meeting the expectations of similar play varies widely depending on the level, class, race, ad infinitum. The only way to be able to test against those expectations is to stay current with the live servers. Plus the devs rely on players for data collection, which I don't know if you've noticed, but it seems there aren't many willing or able to supply it, which means they have to go get it themselves (more time lost from actual coding, and longer delays in matching expectations). If even 1 percent of people playing live also played the emu and 1 percent of them provided reliable needed data (the key here is needed) the devs might be able to meet those expectations faster, and the issue of matching a shrink wrap version would be a moot point, cuz you don't have to have an active account to patch.

If that doesn't work for you try finding someone that has the old data and will share it. Find some devs willing to work towards static compliance with a shrink wrap client. Perhaps it might even be easier to find devs willing to build a client from scratch that uses the data from those shrink wraps and a different kind of custom server. Heck, legal issues might even prevent that. I just don't know.

If you program at all, I am sure you will understand that what you are suggesting is a huge change in direction with massive time requirements. Expecting the current dev's to spin on a dime just isn't feasible and its a bit disrespectful of the work they've done to this point.

I dabble in programming, and would love to have the talent to work on what you suggest. BUT, I don't have the skill or the time at this point. If I did have those tho, I'd probably dedicate it to helping the current dev's get where they want to be with EQemu, or useful 3rd party tools, rather than reinventing the wheel with EQ, or I might just build a better client and hook up with others for original content. Sounds simple, but pracical application proves to be just a bit [sarcasm added] more difficult.

Again, its not a bad idea. But think about all the consequences and requirements of what you are suggesting and compare those against where it seems the current devs desire to go. It's not as simple as it may appear to be on the surface when everything is considered.

P.S. If you detect any flamage while reading this, check around your computer or get your detectors calibrated, as no flame is intended. Merely a perspective to consider.

[Wumpas]

Thank you for your alternate viewpoint and Very valid points Purcevil! Id have to say much of that never crossed my mind. It was all wishfull thinking from a noob to programming lol i only know qbasic well and a little of Borland C++. mabe if i could ever read enough of those "Teach Yourself (insert language here) in 7 easy steps) Books id be able to help out or even pursue my dream of a EMU for the original trilogy instalation only (pre luclin much more fun :D )

Once again very valid points i enjoyed your feedback

PS(Theres no such thing as a flame only Enlightenment :wink: )

[Purcevil]

I'm glad you found it worthwhile. Thank you.

I would love a static server, myself. I spend a lot of time on the road, and it would be perfect for my current needs. But, I think once they finish the 5.0 server you may see a mass of 3rd party tools that will let you create your own pre-luclin like behaviour for yourself. (hope hope hope) Or whatever suits you.

As for teach yourself how to brush your teeth in 7 easy steps... Well, I have the same problem. I've been trying for 20+ years and have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as easy. Do it the hard way, its faster. LOL

And there is nothing wrong with QBasic or Borland C++. It just doesn't happen to help you much when everyone else is using Microsoft Visual C++ (and I've been seeing some C# code starting to surface... gack). Personally, I like C++ Builder. But, switched to MS because of the emu. rofl (I'm still trying to figure out the IDE)

Later... afk till next time
[reaches for that bigger hammer to help with MS software]

[heydafam2]

I just briefly scimmed these pages and I came across someone's point about the patcher and pulling old files from a seperate folder or something to that manner.

Pardon me but what the shizeenizee do we need a seperate folder for when you should ALREADY have one for EQEMu.

*walks away boggled*

[heydafam2]

I just briefly scimmed these pages and I came across someone's point about the patcher and pulling old files from a seperate folder or something to that manner.

Pardon me but what the shizeenizee do we need a seperate folder for when you should ALREADY have one for EQEMu.

*walks away boggled*

[arkaria]

I just briefly scimmed these pages and I came across someone's point about the patcher and pulling old files from a seperate folder or something to that manner.

Pardon me but what the shizeenizee do we need a seperate folder for when you should ALREADY have one for EQEMu.

*walks away boggled*

You clearly don't understand what he was trying to say.

[mattmeck]

I agree, instead of scimming and coming to the wrong conclusion try reading it.

[heydafam2]

I was thinking... the patch program could just save off the current files somewhere on the player's computer the first time it is run. Then if EQ is changed, it pulls them back from the saved area and restores to the original state.

This would eliminate warez, since the player would have to have the files originally and it would only move them from the player's own backup area.

What I'm getting out of this is that he wants to make a seperate folder/place so when the patcher is first run, it saves all the files in the EQ folder to another one, and when he is over updated he/she can go back and get the files from that new folder? How is that not justl ike havign a seperate folder for EQEmu?

I didn't mean to throw pooh in anyone's direction in my last post but maybe I'm just reading it wrong.