Questionable Legality?

[daeken_bb]

Well, people have been saying for a while that EQEmu might be of questionable legality, and now there is some evidence to back it up... http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/02/1648254&tid=123&tid=127

Blizzard has finally beaten bnetd in court, even though the EFF plans to appeal the decision. This means that sony might have a bit more of a reason to come after EQEmu (and possibly OpenEQ as well, though the EQEULA may not apply whatsoever to it), but there is strong doubt that they will.

This is yet another reason why we need to keep piracy out of the forums, as that will only give Sony more reason to attack EQEmu.

As of yet, I wouldn't worry too heavily about the legality of EQEmu or OpenEQ, but if you do have any concerns, I suggest you consult a knowledgable lawyer on the issue.

I personally will be boycotting Blizard due to this issue, and I insist that others do the same, as they're simply trampling over the community that allows them to exist. Vote against their decision with your money. Don't buy their products, and send them emails telling them your opinion.

As always, thanks to the EFF for helping out not only Bnetd, but the whole opensource community. Keep fighting the good fight.

Happy Hacking,
Lord Daeken M. BlackBlade
(Cody Brocious)

[sotonin]

I for one, shall never buy another blizzard title.

[Edgar1898]

Another example of how the ignorant people in our society make the rules....

These judges should be forced to take a few computer classes so they can at least be acknowledgable about the subject. Instead I bet they dont even know how to turn a computer on, let alone use email.

[Melwin]

This will go to the SCOTUS.

Better hope the judges had a good day.

[Baron Sprite]

BSGPFUCL > *

Internet privacy act pretty much means they can't even acknowledge we exsist.

[mrea]

Not to burst your bubble Baron, but the internet privacy act, well, at least the part that is posted on most IRC channels and warez places, does not exist.

[RangerDown]

But you CAN negotiate on this click-thru agreement.

Notepad
File
Open
license.txt

nuff said :P

[Yodason]

I have also been carefully watching this case... And the first thing that came to mind when I got the eff email was crap... However, it largley looks like the ruling was not on the DMCA, but on click-thru lisenses. I remember using bnetd back in the day.. it was verymuch in the same "enviroment" as eqemu is now. However, I'm not entirely sure that Sony cares (or if they do, they don't want the bad publicity), as IMHO if they did they could have done something far before now. Also, don't email, send letters. Letters are much more effective. I agree with Melwin that in all likely hood, this will go to SCOTUS, and its a good case too... Its not a "iffy" case like DECSS, there is a very clear case for legidiment use. All in all, I wouldn't worry about it for now, IMHO, but do write Blizzard, and don't by WOW.

-- Yodason.

[Windcatcher]

It seems to me that, were this to stand, EQEmu would have to immediately divorce itself from anything SOE...at the very least the content and client, and possibly the protocol as well. With a mature OpenEQ client going to a different protocol would be pretty easy (and probably desirable anyway), but content would be the hardest nut to crack. We're at the point where we can create original zones at will (and I could switch OpenZone to a different export file format in a few days if necessary), so it comes down to mob models and textures. The appeals process will take months but I see no reason not to prepare for the worst anyway. I've wanted to make OpenZone capable of letting people design mob skeletons for a while now, and I think i understand enough of what skeleton animation is all about to start to take a stab at it. If we want a different file format for OpenEQ, however, this might be a good time to start designing one.

I should also point out that the two letters "EQ" should probably go away from anything we do...which is exactly the reason why I called OZ "OpenZone"...to keep it generic.

Thoughts?

[killspree]

I'm not going to boycott blizzard just because they want to protect the integrity of their products and ensure their lifespan continues to grow, but this could definitely be bad news.

[daeken_bb]

It seems to me that, were this to stand, EQEmu would have to immediately divorce itself from anything SOE...at the very least the content and client, and possibly the protocol as well. With a mature OpenEQ client going to a different protocol would be pretty easy (and probably desirable anyway), but content would be the hardest nut to crack. We're at the point where we can create original zones at will (and I could switch OpenZone to a different export file format in a few days if necessary), so it comes down to mob models and textures. The appeals process will take months but I see no reason not to prepare for the worst anyway. I've wanted to make OpenZone capable of letting people design mob skeletons for a while now, and I think i understand enough of what skeleton animation is all about to start to take a stab at it. If we want a different file format for OpenEQ, however, this might be a good time to start designing one.

I should also point out that the two letters "EQ" should probably go away from anything we do...which is exactly the reason why I called OZ "OpenZone"...to keep it generic.

Thoughts?

I've been thinking about this for a while as well. I think that we should use sony's file formats (the new ones exclusively, as we do right now... we can use convertors for the old ones, which gives us another level of legal protection as well, really) simply because they're open-ended and not patent-encumbered. Of course, we can modify the file formats as we see fit since we'll be creating the zone content.

If we choose to completely replace the official EQ client, there are some major roadblocks right now. The primary one is the UI. Without a good UI, or even _mediocre_, the client simply won't take off. I have absolutely no experience in building a 2d UI in OpenGL, so my current implimentation is horrid. I looked around but every open source widget set for OpenGL either sucked or was in C++ (or both heh) so I think building it from scratch is still our best option. Perhaps I was simply going about it the wrong way.

As for protocol, the existing one is not the most optimal design by any means. Their encryption and other means of keeping us out has made for a pretty poor protocol design in essence. I think we should completely redesign the protocol when we get to that point, and I think we should develop a completely new server to go along with it.

If we go with EQEmu for more than the prototype, we will have lots of problems. Too many people have figured things out and just put them in the code without sufficient testing. Since we're designing the protocol, we can do it in a way that's efficient on both ends of the connection, and we will have proper documentation so we're not stumbling blindly to develop the server.

Input on this would be useful.

Thanks.

[KhaN]

This make now a long time im thinking as WindCatcher, aka, EQEmu freedom key is OpenEQ, with this post, maybe some will understand why moderators are so strick about Warez and Stuff.

As for file format, the file format itself is not really the problem, the contents are, i do not think converting S3D to EQG would be a way to prevent any attacks from SOE, because if you do this, you will modify SOE contents (while before, we were just using them).

As for UI, best solution is copy the EQ UI, using XML files. Redoing an XML UI with custom XML/TGA is very easy. Plus user would be allowed to use the already made UI for EQ (There is no need to reinvent the wheel).

But all those questions are minor, the major question is, what EQEmu really want ? Continu to emulate EQ, using/copying EQ protocol, UI, EQClient, ...) or simply take EQEmu out of EQ and work on something that maybe in some months, would allow EQEmu to be totally free from SOE ?

I personally always have been for the second solution, and my project (World of Alkora), is based on this idea, but now, it look like EQEmu Devs always have been for the first solution. Personally, i always found all those questions about legality totally useless, everyone here know that even, in some parts what eqemu is doing is legal, its totally immoral. Now, 2 solutions, or you act, or you shuddap and take risks.

[daeken_bb]

This make now a long time im thinking as WindCatcher, aka, EQEmu freedom key is OpenEQ, with this post, maybe some will understand why moderators are so strick about Warez and Stuff.

As for file format, the file format itself is not really the problem, the contents are, i do not think converting S3D to EQG would be a way to prevent any attacks from SOE, because if you do this, you will modify SOE contents (while before, we were just using them).

As for UI, best solution is copy the EQ UI, using XML files. Redoing an XML UI with custom XML/TGA is very easy. Plus user would be allowed to use the already made UI for EQ (There is no need to reinvent the wheel).

But all those questions are minor, the major question is, what EQEmu really want ? Continu to emulate EQ, using/copying EQ protocol, UI, EQClient, ...) or simply take EQEmu out of EQ and work on something that maybe in some months, would allow EQEmu to be totally free from SOE ?

I personally always have been for the second solution, and my project (World of Alkora), is based on this idea, but now, it look like EQEmu Devs always have been for the first solution. Personally, i always found all those questions about legality totally useless, everyone here know that even, in some parts what eqemu is doing is legal, its totally immoral. Now, 2 solutions, or you act, or you shuddap and take risks.

I agree with you on most points, but...

Doing the UI based on the XML is the simple part... the hard part is coding the widget set itself.

Also, I don't see EQEmu as immoral in the least in all honesty. I think that it's a completely ethical server that people sometimes use for unethical reasons (e.g. just using it so they don't have to pay sony)

[Windcatcher]

I don't see any point in converting file formats. The point is to not use any SOE content at all, and at the very least a file conversion utility could be construed as tacit approval of it. I really think it's best to have a clean break with regards to content. I don't even think it's wise to use their new file format -- we're far better off just designing one. It's not like it's that hard -- we need an octree, structures for texture lists, a structure that holds polygon/texture/color/etc. information that also has bounding box and bounding sphere data, etc. It doesn't seem to me that it should take any more than a week to arrive at a consensus on an extensible format. For that matter, are there any open formats that already exist?

A widget set can take some time, but there are engines out there already. The best solution might be to take something like OGRE, CrystalSpace, or some other engine (there's at least one other open one out there but it's name escapes me right now) and simply use that. Right now, though, I recommend just getting something working, with a minimal effort spent on the interface. You can always clean up the UI later on or design skinnable widgets (they tend to be just subclasses of basic ones, really). The trick will be designing it such that it's easy to get it to use a different file format and protocol.

I still say, content, content, content. The rest will fall into place if we have plenty of free content. My suggestions:

1. A texture repository, immediately available to anyone who wants to build zones.

2. A repository for people to submit zones.

3. A repository for people to submit UI skins.

4. A repository for people to submit other 2D content (like item icons)

5. A repository for miscellaneous 3D content (items, models, etc.)

All of these things can be in one place, they're more a suggestion of categories than anything else. There's no reason why the first two can't start immediately.

P.S. I recommend ditching the letters "E" and "Q" when placed next to each other :P Remember what happened to the FreeCraft project. All of their stuff was original, but they were closed down because their name was construed as a trademark violation. I'm surprised that EQEmu didn't undergo an immediate name change at that point.

[daeken_bb]

I don't see any point in converting file formats. The point is to not use any SOE content at all, and at the very least a file conversion utility could be construed as tacit approval of it. I really think it's best to have a clean break with regards to content. I don't even think it's wise to use their new file format -- we're far better off just designing one. It's not like it's that hard -- we need an octree, structures for texture lists, a structure that holds polygon/texture/color/etc. information that also has bounding box and bounding sphere data, etc. It doesn't seem to me that it should take any more than a week to arrive at a consensus on an extensible format. For that matter, are there any open formats that already exist?

A widget set can take some time, but there are engines out there already. The best solution might be to take something like OGRE, CrystalSpace, or some other engine (there's at least one other open one out there but it's name escapes me right now) and simply use that. Right now, though, I recommend just getting something working, with a minimal effort spent on the interface. You can always clean up the UI later on or design skinnable widgets (they tend to be just subclasses of basic ones, really). The trick will be designing it such that it's easy to get it to use a different file format and protocol.

I still say, content, content, content. The rest will fall into place if we have plenty of free content. My suggestions:

1. A texture repository, immediately available to anyone who wants to build zones.

2. A repository for people to submit zones.

3. A repository for people to submit UI skins.

4. A repository for people to submit other 2D content (like item icons)

5. A repository for miscellaneous 3D content (items, models, etc.)

All of these things can be in one place, they're more a suggestion of categories than anything else. There's no reason why the first two can't start immediately.

P.S. I recommend ditching the letters "E" and "Q" when placed next to each other :P Remember what happened to the FreeCraft project. All of their stuff was original, but they were closed down because their name was construed as a trademark violation. I'm surprised that EQEmu didn't undergo an immediate name change at that point.

Ok... if we do create our own file format, we really do need a convertor at least until we have plenty of zones to test with.
GXTi and I worked on a new file format a bit, and the base theory was this:
Everything was split up into an atomic structure, much like the way it's done in quicktime files. In this way, everything can be properly stored and referenced... it's also fully extensible. If a program doesn't understand one atom, it simply skips over it and goes to what it does understand.

If we go with this, it'd be extensible, 100% ours, and simple to work with.

[Windcatcher]

The format concept sounds good to me. I've been thinking along those lines, of atomic structures where there is a standard way of extending any structure (WLD's concept of fragments was hokey at best and done poorly at worst).

Well, there are four zones of mine that are available...if we can agree on a file format I can get an exporter in OpenZone post-haste and release it. I've been redesigning OpenZone's engine since August and it's come along nicely. I have to admit I'm still against the idea of converting existing SOE zones...how many zones do you think you'd need for rigorous testing? I'd like to see if an effort can be made to satisfy your requirements before taking that step. Khan, how are your zones coming along? Can any be released? Is anyone else working on zones?

[daeken_bb]

The format concept sounds good to me. I've been thinking along those lines, of atomic structures where there is a standard way of extending any structure (WLD's concept of fragments was hokey at best and done poorly at worst).

Well, there are four zones of mine that are available...if we can agree on a file format I can get an exporter in OpenZone post-haste and release it. I've been redesigning OpenZone's engine since August and it's come along nicely. I have to admit I'm still against the idea of converting existing SOE zones...how many zones do you think you'd need for rigorous testing? I'd like to see if an effort can be made to satisfy your requirements before taking that step. Khan, how are your zones coming along? Can any be released? Is anyone else working on zones?

See, this is really what the community needs more of; people working together to reach a common goal :D

I'll start a thread in the OpenEQ dev forum immediatly and hopefully we can hammer out an initial file format today. As long as the atom headers don't change, it's 100% backwards and forwards compatible, so that's not a big issue.

If you can get me 4 or 5 decent sized zones, I should have no problem doing some nice testing and all with it.

As always, it's a pleasure working with you WC :)

[killspree]

Agreed about the converter...we can probably come up with enough zones pretty quickly with OpenZone to use instead of using EQ zones if you really need it.

[Windcatcher]

Well the four I've already created are all large outdoor zones. The trick will be knowing that I'm exporting them correctly. It would be nice if I had a viewer or something that I could use to validate the output, but I'll do the best I can.

[daeken_bb]

Well the four I've already created are all large outdoor zones. The trick will be knowing that I'm exporting them correctly. It would be nice if I had a viewer or something that I could use to validate the output, but I'll do the best I can.

As soon as we agree on a file format, I'll start work on making OpenEQ work with it so you have a viewer to test with :)

One other thing we need is a file format to package it all together, which is trivial and then some.

I think I'm going to rewrite OpenEQ almost completely from scratch to accomodate the new changes... going to keep the draw code pretty much intact, though, I think.

[Edgar1898]

I agree with you guys that the new client is the way to go, but from what I have heard its still months away from a viable solution. So until then if we dont continue to support the EQLive client we are going to have a lot of unhappy people :P


Couple of questions: Why are you guys using archaic C, when you could be using C++? and do you guys have a cvs server setup so it would be easier for people to help contribute?

[daeken_bb]

One Question: why are you guys using archaic C, when you could be using C++

Because C is _far_ from "archaic". I'm considering using C++ for the rewrite of OpenEQ simply because I'm sick of dealing with passing structs to functions. I still won't touch the STL with a 10-foot clown pole. I'd rather keep the bloat out and do a little bit more work by hand.

[Yodason]

as you know daeken, my previous objection to helping this project had been I wasn't going to touch that mess of struct passing with a 10 foot pole. Having said that, if you really are serious about changing over to c++, I'll drop by and see if I can't offer some help. (I have currently been contemplating using ogre to do a similar goal as your openeq.. but only until I was able to get some origonal content made)...

-- Yodason

[Muuss]

How many different players per day on EQemu login servers ATM ?
How many of them also own and pay for a EQ account ?
i wonder if the loss of money for SOE, represented by the players that don't fit in the second category is enough to pay a lawyer to put EQemu down. After all, for SOE, its only a question of money, they proved so many times... My opinion, as humble as it has to be, is that EQemu has no reasons to worry about SOE, even more with the upcoming release of EQ2. Tho, i m less optimistic for an EQEmu2 that would start with EQ2.

[jbb]

I still won't touch the STL with a 10-foot clown pole. I'd rather keep the bloat out and do a little bit more work by hand.

What don't you like about STL? I hate the syntax sometimes for iterators and so on but STL itsself seems very solid and if used right doesn't lead to "bloat"...

[RangerDown]

Sometimes, I reactivate my EQLive account to packet collect or look at specifics of how a game mechanic works. Thanks to EQEmu, SOE's making money off me :P

[sotonin]

Same as rangerdown. actually i've had my live account active for about 4 months now. 4 months sony would NOT have had if i hadn't found emu. I had quit, and still dont actually play. I just have it active to packetcollect