Patching Alternatives

[fathernitwit]

We are posting this poll to get a feeling for how the community stands on the future compatibility of eqemu. Nothing is garunteed to come of this, we are just putting out a feeler about a third alternative to the way things have been done. This being making eqemu compatible with the EQ Titanium client that comes on the CD, so anybody could play by getting ahold of the EQ Titanium CDs and doing a fresh install. Its always possible that they remaster the CDs with a different client, but we believe it is unlikely.

[kouhei]

I think its a good idea. I bought the that version and still have the keys and cd's. Thinking about I have 6.0 client, 6.2 client and also live on my HDD. If you did go that route. Would you make it so they would be able to use it on 6.0 servers or 6.2 servers?

[fathernitwit]

6.0 is officially not supported by the devs anymore (there has been over 60000 lines of changes since then), anything we do will only be based on 6.4+.

[Belfedia]

I do not think that to use "TITANIUM" is a good idea for the community eqemu.

People distribute backpatch for titanium in the place of backpatch for last 0.6.4 version... I see future post asking TITANIUM's Links in place of backpatch ...

Forget Live's chase is forget Everquest's upgrade.

I would like to say much more things on this subject, but my knowledge of English is not strong enough.

[sesmar]

I personally think that going with a fresh install from the CD would be a good idea but I can also see the downfall of it. As Belfidia said, instead of asking for a backpatch yes people would now be asking for these files, however, no matter what choice you make people are still going to ask for the client files. This is just going to happen either way. My other concern regarding this would be availability of the Titanium package. Sure right now you can buy it for $20 bucks, but what about in 6 months when they come out with another new expansion and then release an all new package deal. Or how about in a year, will the Titanium package still be available for those that want to buy it?

As for the good things, as long as the Titanium package remains available this would allow for the community to grow even more. No longer would people have to worry about patching at the right time. The Devs could then just stick to fixing old bugs, implementing new features and making a really solid emulator. Not having to worry about chasing live and what is broken now that it has been made compatable with live agian.

As for new features and things that get added with the new expansions I personally have not played any of the new expansions past LDoN and actually never made it to some of the content from before this even, so I do not care if the newer stuff ever gets implemented. I would be happy with just getting everything up to PoP working but that is just my own opinion on this.

All I am really trying to say is under the right circumstances I think that using the Titanium package for client compatablilty would be a great Idea. Well whatever you do decide to do I say, keep up the great work and thank you for providing all of us with a great emulator so far.

[killhand]

I think the best way is keep fixing bugs so we all get a better emulator. In this months of not live compat, devs got tons of things fixed that were broken for a long, long time. They even fixed bards!!

[Dr Zauis]

I think the best way is keep fixing bugs so we all get a better emulator. In this months of not live compat, devs got tons of things fixed that were broken for a long, long time. They even fixed bards!!

I agree..I think that if a person is not patient enough to wait for live compatibiliy(And in the meantime read/study/ect..about emu.)then they should not be be here. This is hard stuff for a noob to understand and the purpose is NOT so a player can play for free. In fact its much easier to collect cans on the side of the road to pay SOE and play EQ live.

[klinzhai]

I don't want to pay SOE because they have truly ruined a game that could be great with a few small changes.

I want to start a server with a small number of players, make 'named' NPCs only spawn once (well, take them out of the game after they die the first time), but drop all their loot when you finally kill them and make a world where you truly work through everything together. I have a small group of friends who would love to see this come to fruition and I can't run around telling them to go to backpatchers or whatever. I'd rather simply be able to tell them to go out and buy Titanium or whatever and then play in a world that's scaled for that smaller group of players.

Everything really started falling apart at PoP (Hello... killing your own deity without consequences?!?!) and it never really got any better. I loved pre-PoP EQ, but when everything just started to be exclusively about loot and killing stuff with no consequences (or effectively no consequences), the game was on a quick slide to "who can kill x critter and get y loot".

Nothing personal to the rest of the community, but I want to play a game where I'm trying to accomplish something with my friends and not compete with 4000 (or even 400) other people trying to do the same thing on the same server. Not to mention the whole problem with never really encountering anyone else in the game, since everything might as well be completely instanced for all anyone does anything together or with other people around any more.

[Shadow-Wolf]

Stopping on titanium would be an excellent idea, for those who got patched and for new members.

[Belfedia]

Stopping on titanium would be an excellent idea, for those who got patched and for new members.

Hum i think you don't understand something
If they work on the Titanium package, nobody have the correct patch, and all people must buy titanium package (old and new). I have 2 everquest bought, i don't want buy one more for a six month package release...

[fathernitwit]

well lets face it, theres not a ton of people around, most people are around because they found a back patch, and will do so again. At least would be a legal alternative that we could officially support.

As for the avaliability of titanium over time... theres still tons of copies of eq platinum selling on ebay frequently...

[Lordlemur]

First, I would like to personally thank FatherNitwit and everyone else who has been milling about with complex solutions to all of Sony's complex problems. While there can not be legal tech support for back patching on this site I would like to point out 2 major reasons why the switch to a pre-packaged sony product would create the same quagmire, even though it might grow the community.

First and formost, any prepackaged Sony product will infact use client side communications that are not concurrent with the latest version of EQEMU. I have been 3rd party to some discussions on how to fix various issues, and I can only imagine how FatherNitwit would manage to reinvent the client server communications and encryptions yet again. Aside from his metal well being this has a HUGE impact on the player base. It takes alot of time to dryroom the encryption. That means that even if there was a client in his hands right now, he wouldn't nessicarly be able to push a client to the community quickly. In that time no visable progress will occur. He does have a life after all, and it's not like we pay him. :)

Secondly, There is no guarentee that Sony didn't have the foresight to actully produce a client that militantly protects it's self. While I don't think that Sony has much foresight, it is not out of the relm of possibilities that they would be sneaky. After all, Sony really doesnt' care for us. I could envision 2 schemes that would make it hard to make a client hackable.

First, rootkits that work with a key and a checksum. If you don't know what a rootkit is it's probably a good thing. Let's just say they could, as other companies have, install code that sinks deep into windows (or worse bios) and changes rules slightly. Say for example that they alter it so your eq client isn't the same as the version number stored on their server then eqgame.exe will not proceed past patching without eqhost and loginserver.ini returning a valid checksum. If these checksums aren't correct it purges your eq directory and prompts you to re-install. It may be quasi-legal, but worse has been done.

Second simply hardcode the loginserver.ini and the eqhost.txt into eq.exe. If it can't be edited, it's really not the big an issue for a game in the end of it's lifecycle, but it makes our lives very poor.



Imho the changes to EQEMU since I started have been very welcome. I would rather have a fully functioning world then a buggy one with more people. EQEMU has real progress, and that's something Sony only lied about on boxes and press releases.


I am

Lemur
Sumlek <50-something Monk> PEQ ~ The Grand Creation 0.6.5

[Belfedia]

well lets face it, theres not a ton of people around, most people are around because they found a back patch, and will do so again. At least would be a legal alternative that we could officially support.

As for the avaliability of titanium over time... theres still tons of copies of eq platinum selling on ebay frequently...

Everquest Titanium isn't very present on warez site... to young for a too old game i think.

If it was just for say to new player, Yes you can play if you buy Titanium, np
make it, but don't hope stop backpatch/warez asking :(

That sure this is a legal issue, but I think about future debates : " kind I have already everquest why oblige me has itself to repurchase it... Have interests on the sales of Sony?" (It is excessive I know, I dramatize:p).
I prefer send 200$ to eqemu devs than 20$ to sony ;)

But the true question is How is the titanium pack ?
I have a platinium pack and without patching is'nt very usefull (that just install of all extension but need patch for fix client).

[fathernitwit]

Keep this in mind: I would not have posted this thread if we did not feel it was a very real and viable option. Theres nothing different or special about what comes on the titanium CDs.

I wouldent expect to see eq CDs on normal warez sites, beings that sony will let you download the entire thing for free... why bother.

[klamath]

Won't you be able to make it up to the files that sony lets you download ? and when they let you download more of game simply update to that ?

[Cisyouc]

My opinion is that, while it will help some people who are willing to go buy it, EverQuest is not the most actively-pirated game, and lets face it, while many of us are not, many of the people here are just here for free everquest. There are still going to be people looking for titanium patches.

However. I do like the fact that the goal is to work on the pre-"all-these-unnecessary-revamps" client. In my opinion, I don't think we're any better moving to titanium than staying where we are now -- except that if we move, there will be alot of people who came for free everquest now without a client.

My 2 cents.

[Cisyouc]

Second simply hardcode the loginserver.ini and the eqhost.txt into eq.exe. If it can't be edited, it's really not the big an issue for a game in the end of it's lifecycle, but it makes our lives very poor. I don't think this can be done. Why? I'm thinking the people who manage sony's domain names and servers are _completely_ different from the developers. If something goes down, they need to be able to change it and patch right away. Mayhaps not the best infrastructure, but.

[MrJag]

in the last 6 years i have bought so many EQ CDs
i have a pretty good stack of um here,
back in dec. i bought the digital download of EQ plat
just before titanium came out. if i had to buy titanium to be able to play EQEmu
i would but, seeing i have so many already and it would just me giving sony more money, id much rather donate to eqemu and just use all the stuff ive bought already
i paied sony for a char transfer with items and a week after that my account was banned
contacting sony they said ther was to many duplicate items on server...
made no since at all to me except i was just scamed by sony for the 75 bucks
then i buy the digital download of eq plat giving sony even more money like a dumb ass, played for 18 of the 30 days it came with , and been hanging out on these forums ever since waiting for when i will be able to come back
if EQEmu caught up to live twice a year that would be great, or if the devs did it where everyone had to buy titanium fine id just like to come back to EQEmu

[Dr Zauis]

One thing good about using titanium is that EQ is stopped in its tracks from all the Krazy "advancements" being made.(like the wonderful ui LOL)
Too bad it wasnt done or wasnt able to be done with one of these classic versions I keep reading about that everone who has played for many years seems to be enthralled with. I feel Ive missed something really good and now its far too late to experience it.

I voted to keep it like it is but really how I feel is that whatever Father Nitwit and the other Devs want to do and feel they are having fun doing it is OK with me.
I dont think trying to increase population base is good reason myself..Sounds too much like commercialism and what Sony is trying to do.

Im not really interested in freeloaders. I dont think thats what this is about.
Let Sony deal with em.

[arovin]

Seems to me that it would hinder the community at first as everyone would need to pickup titanium if the servers the played on moved to that version. But in the long run the community might be better for it as new members would be able to join and the devs would not need to spend time trying to keep up with live and just focus on 100% on making a better emulator that just worked with that version.

Sure there would still be requests for the files but they could be responded to with an answer of go buy the CDs instead of sorry we can't help you.

[tallerin]

I like the idea of makeing eqemu compatible with titanium. The way i see it you can't please everyone. There is always going to be someone that does not like the way it was done regardless of the decision.

[Dr Zauis]

I like the idea of makeing eqemu compatible with titanium. The way i see it you can't please everyone. There is always going to be someone that does not like the way it was done regardless of the decision.

So true! Thats why I say..Whatever FNW and Devs do is fine with me..As long as they feel they are enjoying themselves..

[kedobin]

I think allowing a version of the emu to work with a fresh cd install could be beneficial.

I do agree with those who claim illegal downloading may occur, but as also said, it's bound to happen anyway.

Doing this would potentially reduce the burden on the devs, since they wouldn't feel so pressured to try and stay compatible with live.

Another benefit, although somewhat selfish-sounding, is that some of us could be able to become more updated. I'm still running 0.6.0-DR2, because I hadn't patched when the emu was live-compatible.

Anyway, this could always be seen as a test - if it flops, then just do what had been done before (chase live), or if it works fine, then maybe update when either another expansion is released, or when the full game and most/all expansions are released as a set.

/* warning - completely off topic */
It's not all that important, but I've noticed that the bars on the voting results won't stay visible. The numbers still show, though. I'm using Firefox 1.5.0.1
/* end off topic */

[EliteSting]

IMO , having a standard that is legally available to everyone would be the route to go. Granted , yes there's going to be the idiot posters that want to just download the files and go with it. Heck I'm surprised nobody has asked for an .exe file that does everything for you. >.< Having something that is available without "breaking the law" would also open the doors to alot more people that are willing to contribute to the development of the emu. Yes , dedicated individuals that will really help out on a project are few and far between , but in the long run I can see it as more of a blessing then a hinderance. Just my 2 cents.

[RangerDown]

I'd be for becoming titanium-compatible if it's possible. At least then, we have an actual box set we can point people to, hopefully for months to come, and say "go buy that and you'll be compatible." SOE wins on that too, since that hopefully means a few Titanium sales.

Mattmeck pointed out that sometimes they'll release a CD box set and quietly update the contents while calling it the same name -- ie, 2 months from now they might still sell "Titanium" but they now burn the CD's with that current patch instead of the patch that was on when they first started selling Titanium. If that's the case, then it might just be more problems for us (even moreso since somebody will have paid money for a product that won't work). If you are (reasonably) certain there won't be multiple Titanium versions, then I'm totally in favor of it.

[Belfedia]

Mattmeck pointed out that sometimes they'll release a CD box set and quietly update the contents while calling it the same name -- ie, 2 months from now they might still sell "Titanium" but they now burn the CD's with that current patch instead of the patch that was on when they first started selling Titanium. If that's the case, then it might just be more problems for us (even moreso since somebody will have paid money for a product that won't work). If you are (reasonably) certain there won't be multiple Titanium versions, then I'm totally in favor of it.

That what i would say when i ask if titanium is usable...
(I hate my poor english !)

[Denethor72]

I really like the idea of having a version of the EMU that would be compatible with the CD install of the Titanium Edition. The people that already have a compatible version that works with another version of the EMU would be fine, and people like me that have a client that is too old to work would finally be able to play.

[Shox]

Well, like you said, Sony freely distributes EQ, so why can't you?
What if you got a couple mirrors, and distributed the build that was needed for the emu?

I'm not sure that's entirely legal though, its just a suggestion.

[Cisyouc]

Well, like you said, Sony freely distributes EQ, so why can't you?
AOL freely distributes the AOL client. If you ran an AOL server, theoretically, you'd get in serious trouble for distributing the AOL client for the purpose of being compatible with your AOL server.

If you said your AOL server works with such and such AOL CD's.. that's different.

[mattmeck]

AOL freely distributes the AOL client. If you ran an AOL server, theoretically, you'd get in serious trouble for distributing the AOL client for the purpose of being compatible with your AOL server.

If you said your AOL server works with such and such AOL CD's.. that's different.


I can let Cis use my car, heck I can let ANYONE use my car, but that doesnt mean you can let someone use my car.


Sony lets you USE there software, read the fine print, you do NOT own it, you buy the right to USE it.

[Ibix]

I can let Cis use my can...

Sorry, couldn't pass up on this opportunity to chuckle at unfortunate typos. The rest of the post, however was a very good analogy and one I will use when talking with some people on another forum who don't understand this very concept.

[Shox]

Sony lets you USE there software, read the fine print, you do NOT own it, you buy the right to USE it.
That's not really what I was going for.


But what if you just made it work for the official download? It pretty much never changes and so people don't need to do illegal things like download from warez sites.

[Belfedia]

That's not really what I was going for.


But what if you just made it work for the official download? It pretty much never changes and so people don't need to do illegal things like download from warez sites.

No difference, if you play with a legal client download or a Warez client download, You don't pay use of this program if you don't take a sony account and pay each month.

[mattmeck]

That's not really what I was going for.


But what if you just made it work for the official download? It pretty much never changes and so people don't need to do illegal things like download from warez sites.

The official download changes almost daily.

[Gameross]

Making Emu compatible with any off the shelf package isn't going to work.

The issue is that Sonys packages can contain a client that was never available from the Sony patcher, so people would have to keep buying these packages to keep playing Emu. Every release/update I've installed has always resulted in a client download even though I just installed it.

Sony might as well not bother to put the client on the CD/DVD. Maybe they don't. Never bothered to look.

Also, as people have pointed out, there is availability issues with these complete package distributions.

This project is basicly dying a slow death as long as you don't keep Emu compatible to live. This came very evident to me when I hadn't played Emu for a over a year and found less than half the servers there were when I last played. This could easily be attributed to the fact that people can't get the client to even try playing.

[Ghost Fire]

OK New Rule. Read other peoples post on the subject your going to rip on first before your going to post CRAP! "basicly dying a slow death"

Also as side note to Buttholes, the 2 Guys working on the Emulator are doing this for fun. So if they want to work on making a better Emulator instead of doing the live thing. They can. If they want to work on the Wiki. They can.
Point is They do what THEY want not what YOU want!!!

If you don't like something. Do it yourself. Cisyouc fav. color

[Gameross]

OK New Rule. Read other peoples post on the subject your going to rip on first before your going to post CRAP! "basicly dying a slow death"

Also as side note to Buttholes, the 2 Guys working on the Emulator are doing this for fun. So if they want to work on making a better Emulator instead of doing the live thing. They can. If they want to work on the Wiki. They can.
Point is They do what THEY want not what YOU want!!!

If you don't like something. Do it yourself. Cisyouc fav. colorYes, I only skimmed over all the previous posts. So, if my points were brought up already, I'm still well within my right to state my reasoning for my vote, weather or not others have stated the same thing.

As for dying a slow death, I'm just stating the obvious result of people not being able to get a working client for Emu. Ya can't play a game without an interface.

I appreciate that these guys are willing to put their time into this project. Your attitude on the other hand is just pointless and assinine. You obviously voted for Bush. :P

[Doodman]

I've never quite understood why the Emu is so far behind live. Macroquest, which is quickly updated, would seem to have all the client structs defined you would need to make Emu compatible to live.

Well, obviously, you've never worked with the source of EQEmu/ShowEQ vs MQ. The client side structs and the line structs are vastly different. Plus, even if they were, the opcodes used in the packets to move the data back and forth between the client and server need to be discovered.

Of course, I'm no longer doing any programming and haven't dug into the code for this, but it seems like the hard work is being done by another project which distributes it source.

Perhaps you should dig a little more before spout off. Or, even better, if you feel it would be so easy, you are more than welcome to make EQEMu be live compatible and contribute it back.

[Gameross]

Well, obviously, you've never worked with the source of EQEmu/ShowEQ vs MQ. The client side structs and the line structs are vastly different. Plus, even if they were, the opcodes used in the packets to move the data back and forth between the client and server need to be discovered.



Perhaps you should dig a little more before spout off. Or, even better, if you feel it would be so easy, you are more than welcome to make EQEMu be live compatible and contribute it back.Actually, I did rethink how the 2 systems are different and yes, I can see how MQ wouldn't help that much with your interfacing to the currently client. Just deleted that part of my post actually, but obviously not before you had read it.

But it still doesn't change the other points I brought up.

Is ShowEQ still around. At least it's a actual packet sniffer and certainly closer to what you need to make modding Emu to live.

[Doodman]

Is ShowEQ still around. At least it's a actual packet sniffer and certainly closer to what you need to make modding Emu to live.

Well, we've always had our own packet sniffer. I was actually actively involved in helping purple (from showeq) understand the network protocol and gave him my sniffer as a reference to help fix ShowEQ for the new network code.

Still, even tho ShowEQ needs the some of the same information that we need for it to work, it's a very small subset of what we actually need to make eqemu work. They can leave a lot of unknonw stuff as unknown since showeq doesn't need to show it. We cannot.

We actually, before we decided to work on stability instead of chasing a moving target, work pretty closely with the ShowEQ folks with exchanging information on opcodes and structures. The MQ devs feel that they are superior to everyone else and, every time I've asked, do not feel it's worth their time to play nice with other related projects.

Keep in mind, there are 300+ opcodes that we have discovered the value for in 0.6.2+ and over 200 structures, not to mention changes to items. That's 300+ opcodes we need to refind almost every patch and at least a dozen or so structures that SoE scrambles for no obvious reason. Chasing live is no trivial task. You might be able to log in with a live client with a small amount of work, but 75% or more of the currently working features would not work.

[Doodman]

Besides, in an indirect way we are working on live compat related issues.

FNW has some things in an experimental version (dev only) that should assist us in work on newer patches.

And, I've been working on x86 virtual machine to be able to process and fingerprint the dispatching routine in the client to try to be able to determine opcodes in newer executables by comparing the function signatures for the handlers of opcodes.

When these two are complete, it should help in being able to follow newer patches more closely but it's not a 100% match (right now I can find about ~60 opcodes automatically). But that does nothing for structures.

Things take time. We're trying to balance stability and new features with being able to chase other patches, but stability is currenly our preference.

If you are too impatient to wait or think you can do better, you are more than welcome to do so. This project is, after all, open source. You have the same tools and code that I do.

[microbrain]

I dont know about anyone else, but I am finding it incredibly difficult (and increasingly frustrating) to get hold of an eq client that works with eqemu.

All I want to do is run my own small LAN server for a few friends to play occasionally, but this is an impossibility as I cannot find a client that works with the eqemu server. :mad:

(I unfortunately stopped playing live in december, so my client was patched beyond the november freeze. I have a copy which according to EQVercheck should work with 0.6.0, but never gets past the login screen!)

If there was a version out there that would work with an unpatched installation of titanium, I would go out and buy it in an instant :D . I am sure I would not be the only one.

You guys have done some excellent work here. Chasing Live is a great idea, but I for one just want to have a working emu that I can play locally.

just my 2cp worth.

[Denethor72]

I agree with Micro; if there was a version that was compatible with a clean install, I would buy it as well, because I'm getting tired of not being able to find anyone that has a version that will work. All of my friends that still play live have the newest patch, so that won't work. And you can't ask anyone through these forums without violating the agreement, so that's out. I don't care about it being compatible with live as much as just having something that will work with a fresh out of the box install. I just want to setup my own private lan to play it on, because I quit playing live to get away from the idiot players and kill-stealers that seemed to be infesting the live servers more and more often. Just my 2cp worth, so it's probably worth less than that... heh.

[ndnet]

I support the option of moving towards compatibility on a clean-install primarily because I lost my prior compatible folder long ago in a disk corruption, my last backup DVD is from June'05, and I happen to own the Titanium set I purchased for a second live account ^.~

[a_Guest03]

You'll never reach 100% chasing live. It's like eqemu is a fat kid chasing down an icecream truck with a sadistic driver. Sony's not *trying* to be a sadistic driver, but as long as the vehicle moves, you can't outrun it ad infinitum. Make a stable system based on a snapshot, like Titanium, and I'll donate at least $50.

It's worth it to me to have something that works. I donated in the past and it still doesn't work. FNW, you must focus on a snapshot. Chasing live is just too much.

Here's another thing to consider. When eqemu started, each patch was just so much! Kunark made the world 100% bigger! Velius another 50% bigger! How many expansions are there now?? I quit following eq and eqemu for a while. These are all getting to be incrementally LESS value for the same work. Think of it as the storage issue we focus now. Example, iPods. As iPods increase in size, the value of the storage goes down, and soon, I don't want to pay $500 for 7TB. I'll pay $50 for 200GB. There's only so much media I can enjoy as one person. Soon my time is better spent elsewhere, not watching DVDs on my iPod at work. Do we need the ENTIRE collection, even as each incremental growth is WORTHLESS in the grand scheme of things??? Can't we be satisfied?

You have less developers if I'm not wrong, and you *must* revitalize this project by reaching completion, or it'll fall apart. $20 is piss in the bucket for a reliable world with SO MUCH DATA. Think of how many hours alone or with friends that you can milk from 4 expansions. We need to get a client that is done, get testing done, and finish this project. I've been a member of this project for almost 4 years, and I've been unable to play it probably 3 years worth because of patches, broken features, lost interest, etc. I've seen dev after dev after dev leave, throw their arms up, and quit.

FNW, finish this project off, PLEASE. PM me if you need some money to get sorted out. I just graduated college, got a monster job, and am tired of seeing this project flounder as you all spit, fight, and rip at success. It's time to grab success, build a sturdy system, and send eqemu to pasture, where NEW features, NEW expansions, NEW becomes the mantra. Let's not be fixing. Let's be building.

[a_Guest03]

Additionally,

You can't please everyone. I noticed 60% want to see this happen. I've wanted this since the Platinum series, since before POP, before Velius, even. This should be intuitive, and you shouldn't ask for permission, FNW. You know the answer, and everyone who has been involved for more than two years knows the answer.

This shouldn't be democratic anyway. If you are looking for a solution to please the group, to be considered successful, here are the most basic demands of your public:

1. Everquest, emulated (check)
2. Ability to build a system with control of their world (check)
3. Centralized Loginserver mandatory (check)
4. World content populated (check, could use more, but mostly check)
5. Revitalization of memories relived through gameplay with friends (check)
6. A system that works stably the first time and every time and has support (missing)
7. Documentation (... needs work once system is complete)

Anything else is a desire, a want. The above are 7 identified needs.

What has this community given up in opportunity cost to see this dream?

1. Money - donations (often over $10)
2. Time - time spent in the forums, discussing, testing
3. Risk - risk of losing an EQlive account (granted, small risk)

Let's see... I can't count on hands and feet the times I've seen donations over $10 to see the light at the end of the tunnel, or to make your job easier, to make the above requirements possible.

There's no donatable amount of money that will give us the 6th requirement without using a snapshot. I can't pay for fulltime programmers to fix the bugs, and our collective money (from some teenagers, many 20-somethings, some 30-somethings, and a handful older) just isn't enough! So, the alternative is that we all pay $20 to Sony and its distribution channel for that snapshot. And why not? Homage, to the programmers, to the company that created this program isn't a bad thing. They created the content, the world in which you experienced the original memories. $20 is the cost of two month's membership, no? For unlimited play, I'd pay $20. If anyone sees $20 as more valuable than this, let me know where I can get 7 years of content, programming, innovation, more game than I can handle? The pacman series can still cost $20.

The COMPUTERS THAT RUN THIS, the NETWORK that runs this, all of the capital investments, probably cost LOADS more per person than $20.

This is a steal.

Final positive note: Sony gets paid. They didn't come in and smite us, even though I'm sure enough flexing of the lawyers on retainer would have smote this years ago. Give them a reason to let this happen again in the future, to issue a big release like this again at the end of life for a game. We're giving them a big kiss goodbye, and getting what we've wanted for so long, for a price worth paying.

Think about it, and you'll come to the same conclusion. If you don't, please explain how this is a bad idea.

[TheClaus]

I agree with a_Guest03 on this. I have been here off and on for 3+ years and always hated chasing after live. In the beginning it was a need but now that we have Titanium that has most of the expansions we should focus on getting that up and running and create a stable server.

I'll donate $50 also for a stable snapshot working with Titanium.

[Jalister]

I didn't vote because I'm good with two answers...
-I would buy EQ Titanium if it worked with EQEmu.
-Im happy the way it is, keep fixing bugs.

It would be nice if the emulator could support PoR zones. Not the reworked Oasis and Freeport, just any truly new zones. But not if it would break the emulator.

Anyway, I saw Titanium on sale, so I picked it up just in case.

[Eljier]

For those who do not know Titanium is the most complete install released to date from SOE. Once you install the CD's there are no downloads or patches for the game. Until the new expansion release anyway. To have all expansions except the newest in one complete install is like working from a backup that was never updated. There would be more people involved in EQemu since all you need is a titanium install and a emu server to access. I say #ell yes. I am so sick of paying SOE for 3 accounts, just to have them NERF everything on you. I would like to say thanks to all the people involved with the development of the EQemu, please keep plugin away!!!!

[Jepster4515]

First off, I'm behind you both.

Micro, I too am only looking to run a semi-legit server that will be nicely tucked away behind my firewall with no hope of seeing the light of day, used purely for the enjoyment of myself and my roommates.

a_Guest, you've finished college? Great! If we can convince the (current) devs that focusing just on a snapshot of the game, like the Titanium release, is the most rational thing to do, then I'll pitch in $50 in addition to the cost of the CDs for the devs (and myself, of course). So I won't be able to play on the live servers! I don't think I'll loose any sleep over it.

Devs, please hear the cries of your followers: We want a release that'll work with a CD-released snapshot of the game. 1 Install + 0 patching + x download(s) = running service. That is what we want. The Nov. freeze was a step in the right direction, and no one can (or should) fault you for choosing what was then a convenient stopping point. To modify the fat kid and the icecream truck analogy, some of us ran too far (and patched after the freeze) and others didn't run far enough (stopped patching before the freeze and now find themselves on this side of the cutoff date). A CD-released snapshot will cost us money to get, but it will be a legal solution to the problem because it would be a Sony-blessed distro of the client.

Once the Titanium server is going golden and all is well with the world again, you can (if you so chose to) turn your attentions to the next big compendium release, which will no doubt happen in about *checks his watch, in spite of the fact he isn't wearing one* six months from now, give or take, in line with the release of the next EQ1 expansion.

Jepster
---
<Insert witty remark here>

[mattmeck]

For those who do not know Titanium is the most complete install released to date from SOE. Once you install the CD's there are no downloads or patches for the game. Until the new expansion release anyway. To have all expansions except the newest in one complete install is like working from a backup that was never updated. There would be more people involved in EQemu since all you need is a titanium install and a emu server to access. I say #ell yes. I am so sick of paying SOE for 3 accounts, just to have them NERF everything on you. I would like to say thanks to all the people involved with the development of the EQemu, please keep plugin away!!!!


This *may* have been true when it was first made in the factory, but the very first day it was sold in the stores there was still huge downloads due to SOE patching.

[klinzhai]

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents again.

I think that there would be a lot more support for EQemu if there was a way to actually get the files. It's a world of difference between going and getting a CD that was distributed in the stores and installing the game and trying to find some location that has the patch files from a relatively arbitrary date. I know a good 20+ people who would happily buy and install Titanium if they knew that they could play on any emulator server after that. I'm sure that there are a number of places out there to get the patch files, but it's not that easy to find them (I've looked, but I'm not going to burn hour upon hour searching) as opposed to going to the store to buy the discs. Also, even if I did find the files, then I'd have to burn it to a DVD so that I could get the files over to my friends. If we could simply use the Titanium CDs, it would be a world of difference, since I'm sure there are thousands and thousands of copies of the CDs out there right now and you can still buy the CDs today. Kind of like the Kunark CDs... I know a good dozen people who still have copies of their Kunark CDs. I'm about 99% sure that I don't know anyone with a compatible set of files for the EQ Emulator.

I honestly think that the relative lack of activity in the community (compared to some other emulator communities like UO or even WoW) is because of the difficulty in acquiring a working client. While a good number of people could care less if there were an easier way to get a working client, I think that there would be a lot more tools available, from quest creation tools and mob creation tools to even possibly zone creation tools for people who want to make their own zones. I wouldn't be suprised if there were some of these tools out there already, but I think that the quality of them would possibly go up with a more active community.

In short, having a 'release' version to use for the client could only help the community. There would be zero downfalls and while there might be some people who would still whine about not being able to get the files, their justification for saying they can't get a widely available distribution would be vanishingly small.

[johane]

For those who do not know Titanium is the most complete install released to date from SOE. Once you install the CD's there are no downloads or patches for the game. Until the new expansion release anyway. To have all expansions except the newest in one complete install is like working from a backup that was never updated. There would be more people involved in EQemu since all you need is a titanium install and a emu server to access. I say #ell yes. I am so sick of paying SOE for 3 accounts, just to have them NERF everything on you. I would like to say thanks to all the people involved with the development of the EQemu, please keep plugin away!!!!

So you are saying that unlike every other disk SOE has released this one works, out of the box without any patching?

I'd have thought that if the disks were broken (like in evolution, or velious or kunark) then it'd be useless for eqemu purposes.

[mattmeck]

No, he was 100% wrong, it DOES patch.

Never the less it is very complete.

[johane]

No, he was 100% wrong, it DOES patch.

Never the less it is very complete.


OK, so my stupid question is:

What evidence is there that Titanium can run properly against any version of eqemu ever? i.e. How can one be certain that the client on the disks isnt broken in some very fundamental way that totally precludes it ever being better than x% running with an emulator?

[mattmeck]

OK, so my stupid question is:

What evidence is there that Titanium can run properly against any version of eqemu ever? i.e. How can one be certain that the client on the disks isnt broken in some very fundamental way that totally precludes it ever being better than x% running with an emulator?

The fact the Devs are going to recreate the EMU from scratch to work with it. (if its decided to go that way)

[johane]

The fact the Devs are going to recreate the EMU from scratch to work with it. (if its decided to go that way)

This is the kind of idea that we used to describe to managers as "couragous", knowing that that would get it cancelled!

[klinzhai]

This is the kind of idea that we used to describe to managers as "couragous", knowing that that would get it cancelled!

Well, considering these guys pulled it off (pretty quickly too, if you ask me), I'd say your managers were pussies.

[johane]

Well, considering these guys pulled it off (pretty quickly too, if you ask me), I'd say your managers were pussies.

Let me give you a clue:

A manager's job is to manage risk and to try to keep everyone as happy as possible whilst also keeping the money flowing. A decision that could piss people off entails risk (i.e. either have no new people join the emu or piss off people who don't want to buy titanium who play with emu quite nicely.). As it was the dev came up with a low risk solution (although FNW did post that things could get a bit more CPU bound supporting more patch levels). This solution was not actually what was being proposed at the time this survey was made - am I right in supposing it was this thread that made devs think "Hey we can make eveyone happy here"? Damn cunning approach to solve problem IMHO.

[~RD~ Innapropriate comments edited out. This forum is not the place to make those comparisons. Save that for when you're with your buddies, quoting the key lines from Team America:World Police.]

[Armanthuz]

Ive been following and contributing to this project over the years and i can simplify the argument for the non-technical users.

Sony makes a ton of money and pays MANY programmers/developers to make stuff for everquest.

To expect 2 programmers to be able to reverse engineer and implement not only the communication between client and server stuff but ALSO the new features they add is well fantasy.

Im constantlly amazed how fast these guys took a game that was hemmoraging badly from trying to keep up to something thats pretty amazing if you knew the difficulty on what they are doing.

[Angelox]

I'm not here because it's free, I'm here because I don't have to worry about "patch days" and all the other constant fixes, updates/add-on's SOE does. I liked the game when it started out - then Kunark was ok and a few of the others, but then it all just got to be too much too soon, and too overwhelming. I even had posts in the Sony forums begging them for a classic server - that was before i founf this site.
I'm really impressed with all that's been done here - I never thought anyone would get so far advanced with an EQ Emulator. When I first started here, the subject on the emails to my friends about EQEmu was; "The Ultimate Emulator" - I've been into emulators since the old BBS days - and EQEmu is up at the top of my list now.
Needless to say, Titanium was a "blessing" for me, and no one should complain about 20.00 dollars it costs, if they ever played EQ Live for 15.00 a month.

[Nessful]

does this mean that eqemu works?
if i got titanium

[mattmeck]

does this mean that eqemu works?
if i got titanium


No it will work for everyone else but you.

[Aangus]

In my opinion this is the best thing ever to happen to EqEmu. Walmart here has Titanium for less than $18 - We finally got a Minilogon server up and running - Thank you Fathernitwit

[viviAngel]

Hi! i really think that you should stay with Titanium and try to make it better and solve the bugs. Anyway, the databases are far behind, so in a way, it's useless for now to try to catch live. Everyone can buy Titanium, so making this version better is the best way to make most people (and me) happy :)

Great work by the way!!

[sdabbs65]

Hi! i really think that you should stay with Titanium and try to make it better and solve the bugs. Anyway, the databases are far behind, so in a way, it's useless for now to try to catch live. Everyone can buy Titanium, so making this version better is the best way to make most people (and me) happy :)

Great work by the way!!

I don't understand what the issue is, you guys complained about patching and what not, then when they do release a compatable version you complain about not having a database and all the bugs, EQEMU has never released a DATABASE it's always been the support of the community that has helped with that.
packet collecting is the only realistic way to get a decent database and now it's busted so there will be no more database release's unless PEQ does it or someone else takes on that Monster Project and spends months making it for you guys.if you want a decent database you will have to wait
till the people who do it . can realease another one.
as far as the Server code goes, I think they have done a great job of giving us a decent Server to to play with and if they ever do implement talking items
or get us to live, thats just a HUGE bonus for us and we should be greatfull for what we have now.

[viviAngel]

Since you quote my message i think you didnt understand what i meant to say. I am really happy with the release of titanium and in no way complaining about about the bugs or the PEQ group doing the database, i know it's a lot of work. I just think that sticking with titanium and trying to make it better is the best way to improve the emu.

But then again, that is my opinion, i respect what everyone said, i'm just giving feedback like asked.

[sdabbs65]

Since you quote my message i think you didnt understand what i meant to say. I am really happy with the release of titanium and in no way complaining about about the bugs or the PEQ group doing the database, i know it's a lot of work. I just think that sticking with titanium and trying to make it better is the best way to improve the emu.

But then again, that is my opinion, i respect what everyone said, i'm just giving feedback like asked.

I don't think people understand that the EMU and the database are 2 different things.

[viviAngel]

If i write the "PEQ group doing the database" it's because i do understand that the EMU and the database are 2 different things..

[sdabbs65]

If i write the "PEQ group doing the database" it's because i do understand that the EMU and the database are 2 different things..

Im glad you understand, after the fact...
PEQ is not the only people releaseing database's they just happen to be the most popular.
they have not relased anything new since Tue Mar 07, 2006.
they say there working on the expansions now but, I have not heard how far
or if they are still doing just that.

For DataBase 0.6.0 DR2, 0.6.0 DR3, 0.6.1, 0.6.2, 0.6.3 and 0.6.4 by Project EQ team
http://www.projecteq.net/getfiles.php∞

For cavedude 0.6.1 DR db :
http://www.savefile.com/filehost/files.php?fid=3351769∞

[Damilis]

I agree with the ideas of keeping Titanium as the target client software for devlopment.

Additionally, since multi version support is already in place, perhaps instead of shifting compatability of the EMU to the newest expansion pack that is released, how about adding it to the list of compatable clients. By doing this, every CD pack released after Titanium will be compatable and with every expansion released, the available compatable client software base grows.

Just a brainstorm. Feedback?

[sesmar]

While I believe the idea of Multi-Client compatability is the Dev's intentions, I do not think it would be feasable for them to make it compatable with every CD Release after Titanium. The biggest problem I see with this is that it would require the Dev's to go out and purchase each expansion and CD release in order to make the EMU compatable with it. Since they work on this project for free on their own time this does not seems benficial enough to do. Now making it compatable with multiple "patch" versions seems more of the direction they will go.

[Belfedia]

While I believe the idea of Multi-Client compatability is the Dev's intentions, I do not think it would be feasable for them to make it compatable with every CD Release after Titanium. The biggest problem I see with this is that it would require the Dev's to go out and purchase each expansion and CD release in order to make the EMU compatable with it. Since they work on this project for free on their own time this does not seems benficial enough to do. Now making it compatable with multiple "patch" versions seems more of the direction they will go.

Client pre 09/13, titanium and last live are very close about features. It was more difficult to manage older client. And that will be a nightmare for server owner to support many different client with differents features. I think actual eqemu purchase the live when devs will have time, but no support older client.

[Damilis]

Granted, its been a while since i was on the EqEmu bandwagon, but if, for example, 0.7.1 supports Titanium + next expansion and 0.7.0 supports just Titanium, how hard would it be to have a 0.7.1 server recognize the difference between a clean install of the Titanium client and a clean install of the Titanium + next expansion? If the server could do that, shouldnt it be able to load the appropriate opcode sets and enable/disable features for different clients? I can see a crypto change being a pain in the but to this idea, but since this is a question based on my own lack of knowledge of the finer details, I am kinda just throwing it out there to the Devs to see if its even a GOOD idea :)


Edit:
Oh, and it just hit me: If the devs are trying super hard to keep the emu as current as possible, how are they NOT buying the expansions and keeping it legal? I always thought that a CD set like titanium WAS a specific patch version...

[gottasummer]

I bought it because I was looking for three of the expansions included... I just thought it would be easier to just buy all of them, boxed, instead of looking online for the two or three expansions I wanted... plus, at the price, I got a lot more than what I hoped for.

I'm assuming Titanium has some other things in it, and is not just a collection of expansions, is it not? I'm asking as this isn't a catch up to live, but it is up to Titanium...

[Nessful]

why wont it work for everyone else but me? :-?

[gottasummer]

Won't what work?

[therealjjj77]

One thing good about using titanium is that EQ is stopped in its tracks from all the Krazy "advancements" being made.(like the wonderful ui LOL)

The UI can be changed by pressing Alt+W, clicking options, go to the display tab, and then select UIs and select classic(or whatever it's called)UI. I also hate the new one but it's a quick change that can stay permanent on each character you make it on.

[Avaran]

I think of it this way....

EQ Titanium is easy to get. 20 bucks for all those expansions isn't a problem for me.

The install discs of EQ Titanium come with expansions far beyond Luclin, which is what we currently have running on our emulators. With the exception of a few POP and LOY zones that people have created here and there.

Should the DEVs stick with Titanium, I think we have enough content to fix and build to last us at least another few years... any expansions or patches that EQ puts into the game we usually don't even like. Let's be honest, at this point the content that Sony is putting into the game isn't very interesting, it's just to sell more games.

I think we should stick with Titanium, I know it's what me and my friends would all like to see. Just getting AAs to work would be nice. Let's stop chasing that latest patch and branch out on our own :)

-Av

[Sourdough35]

You said it, Avaran. Why bother with the hassle of keeping current when the only real benefit is adding expansion content that (1) current Databases aren't even close to, and (2) no one wants to play anyway.

Titanium has 10 expansions on it. Assuming people even want the live content for half of those, I'd say people working on this project have a ton on their plate, and the opportunity to put a ton on the players' plates as well.

And it may be difficult a few years down the line for newcomers to get a copy of the Titanium discs, but it's not like it's easier for them to get copies of non-existent or illegal backpatch data.

[voden]

<<<< BANNED>>>>>

[voden]

<<<banned>>>>

[cathgar]

sorry wrong forum.