New to EQEmu

[Raize]

Hello,

I was told by a neighbor to check this really cool emulator out on the net. I came here, downloaded the files, found out I need to download EQW and MySQL, so I got those and continued.

I get everything setup and I go to register a login account and eqemu.net/login is not responding. I give it a couple of tries and then give up.

Now I have an account set up, and my server is working great. At least, as far as I can tell. I currently have the original EQ cd and have *NO* option but to wait.

In the meantime, I'm running a fucking server that other people can use. But it doesn't matter, cause *I* can't use it. And now I read on the mainpage that not only will I not be able to use it for a few days, but I can't even help out future newcomers that may have the same problems as I do?

No offense, but my first experience with this mod so far is rather unsettling. I now have to wait (and, I'm noticing I'm even forbidden from asking how long I have to wait) before I can use a server that others are probably using just fine.

I don't know if it is an attitude or perspective thing or not, but whoever is running the show is doing a poor job of making us newcomers feel welcome. The policy against trading the files that us newcomers need to play the game is harsh. If you don't want them asking you, fine. But I know I won't have the same attitude if I ever get the game to work for myself.

[Ariak]

Well, you don't have the files. Big shit.

We can NOT distribute them to you. Want to know why? It is VERY illegal!

You can use the emu like everybody else. You missed out on your time time around.

[Raize]

Quote:"We can NOT distribute them to you. Want to know why? It is VERY illegal!"

I understand. Half the post is venting of frustration, the other half is a serious issue that I'd like to hear the opinion on. If I read this site correctly, I'm being told that if I do an illegal action, EQEmu is so scared of liability that they will ban me from the forums.

Sounds great for the fanboys that think this Emulator is the best thing since baked bread, but for those of us that want to GM a server, its confusing.

What I'm hearing is that if a buddy of mine wants to play on a server during a situation where folks are waiting for a patch to come out, I run the risk of being banned from EQEmu forums, IRC, and etc. if I send that guy the files.

Why EQEmu would be concerned about that is beyond me. I understand the show of concern about Verant taking legal action, but in this instance the only possible legal action that can be taken is again *ME* for distributing the files to the buddy. NOT EQEmu.

If any of you had bothered to consider this, perhaps your policies regarding this issue wouldn't be so draconian. Going one step too far can make a big difference when someone is trying to familiarize themselves with the emulator project.

Note: I realize I'm already banned every which way from hell in IRC, but the argument over the policy remains. I'll check this post for replies, but as it stands, I've yet to truly understand the official EQEmu position on this, especially since everyone seems to be of the opinion that since trading files are illegal, banning people that do it is the only option.

Why not, instead of banning people, you state that if you find out people are doing it, you'll turn them in to Verant? That position better explains the stance you are currently taking. Not that of a defender of the peace but rather that of a snitch waiting to rat a person out.

It would make more sense to me to ignore file trading done privately and not ban users for helping others play the game.

[Shawn319]

We are not stopping you from giving out the files. All we are doing is saying if we find out you did it (like talking about it in the forums, in the chat room or someone that does see it turns you in) then we have to take SOME action or elce verant will use that againts us in the event we are taken to court (because of the emu itself).

I dont like it either (hey **I** patched and dont have the files anymore) (i deleted my backups for fun hehe) but it has to be done.

Next emu will have a warning on step one (in the readme) saying DO NOT PATCH unless you talk to someone in the chat room or forums and thay say its okay to patch.

[septimus]

Lemme get this straight: You believe that by sending someone else the old files the EQEmu team will miraculously discover you've done so and thus ban your server from being usable??

What you do is your own choice, and all concequences are thus placed on your forehead - if you don't tell anyone they won't know - but the EQEmu community (especially the developers) will not in any way help or even endorse the action, as it's illegal. I can only think that you're arguing because you misunderstood what they actually mean by banning.

If you ask for any EQ files in IRC or on these forums, you will be banned from the forums, from IRC and probably from the main EQEmu login server - that does NOT mean you'll be stopped from running your own server, sending your friends these files or anything else of the sort. Therefore, stop arguing and stop trying to be a smartass with your numerous shells and bounced IRC connections.

[chocobo]

so true just becarful what you patch:p

[Raize]

We are not stopping you from giving out the files. All we are doing is saying if we find out you did it (like talking about it in the forums, in the chat room or someone that does see it turns you in) then we have to take SOME action or elce verant will use that againts us in the event we are taken to court (because of the emu itself).

I dont like it either (hey **I** patched and dont have the files anymore) (i deleted my backups for fun hehe) but it has to be done.

Next emu will have a warning on step one (in the readme) saying DO NOT PATCH unless you talk to someone in the chat room or forums and thay say its okay to patch.

Amazing. In only one reply you say exactly what I wanted to hear, that you wouldn't be taking action against users that choose to trade files without using EQEmu forums or IRC to do so. I understand taking action if EQEmu is the vehicle through which the file is sent, but banning a user that chooses to give the files out on their own is harsh.

If you guys are worried about getting too many requests for files, just place something in the text file saying "If you ask anyone from EmuEQ for the files, you will be banned. Also be warned that sending or receiving the files may be considered illegal activity and Verant may take legal action if caught."

Then, on the boards put up the following: "Posts made on this forum are those exclusively of the users and not the EQEmu team." I see you have something similar to it already. And on the MOTD for IRC, "Discussions leading to the trade of EQ files via DCC are not allowed. If users are caught orchestrating a trade of files, they will be banned."

IMHO both those options are clear and precise.

And as for the wild kook who trades with his friends, like myself, they'll only have to deal with Verant for their actions. Banning these people is going one step furthur than is needed.

[Trumpcard]

You post is confusing me.. You consider banning people for trading warez to be draconian, but turning them in too Verant is not?

As far as the legal concerns, considering the very sketchy nature of the EULA fights (look at bnetd amoung other things) the smartest course is just avoiding that whole situation together. Why ban? Because it's a valid punishment, and alot less draconian if you ask me than turning someone in.. If we don't make a strong stance on it, it would be very easy for someone to point the finger and say the project is encouraging the trading of eq software.. People who didnt have ways to play online before could now play with warezed eq versions with published cd codes.. Its not worth it...

As far asking about ETA's? Since I havent seen anyone paying any of the developers, who do it in their free time as a service to the users, I don't see how anyone has the right to continually hound them about it... If there wasnt a ban on doing it, 75% of the posts on these boards would be ETA PLZZZZ because of the frequent Verant patches.. Its the nature of the beast.. If you don't like it, you are more than free to develop your own emulator and put up a warez site to supply all your players with prepatch versions..

The problem is that people blindly rush forward without getting some direction first, or come in at a bad time (they find out about it when it's currently broken with live patches) and are so juvenille, that they cant wait a couple of weeks for the patches to come out.

[Raize]

Quote: Therefore, stop arguing and stop trying to be a smartass with your numerous shells and bounced IRC connections.

I'm not trying to be a smartass. I had two in there before, one on there now, and I'm not going to argue with you guys over this anymore now that I've gotten a clear answer from Shawn319.

[Shawn319]

Do what you wish, just please dont let me know about it hehe. its kinda like software piracy. if you keep it to yourself then you wont get caught (not that its a good thing to do).



If there wasnt a ban on doing it, 75% of the posts on these boards would be ETA PLZZZZ because of the frequent Verant patches..

I have yet to ban someone for asking ETA's and i probably wont. just please keep the ETA's to a minimum =P

(feelings twards ETA bannings are subject to change)

[Raize]

As far asking about ETA's? Since I havent seen anyone paying any of the developers, who do it in their free time as a service to the users, I don't see how anyone has the right to continually hound them about it... If there wasnt a ban on doing it, 75% of the posts on these boards would be ETA PLZZZZ because of the frequent Verant patches.. Its the nature of the beast.. If you don't like it, you are more than free to develop your own emulator and put up a warez site to supply all your players with prepatch versions..

I understand the frustration over this. But it is good policy to post ETAs for patches in general, even if the time is set weeks in advance. At least that way, the users that would ask would have a place to check, and the whole: "Ask and we'll ban" thing can be avoided in most instances. Even something like "a week" can quench most readers questions.

The problem is that people blindly rush forward without getting some direction first, or come in at a bad time (they find out about it when it's currently broken with live patches) and are so juvenille, that they cant wait a couple of weeks for the patches to come out.

This would be me. Except that I can wait. I just couldn't understand the policy. I'm anxious, no doubt, but I can wait. I don't think I could wait if a friend was in the same sticky situation as I. In fact, I'd most likely give him the files. Which is why it wasn't reassuring to see on the main page a tirade about banning users for trading EQ files.

If the readme file is going to be including info about when not to patch, that would be great. I indeed look forward to future versions of EQEmu.

[Shawn319]

We learned about ETA's with hackersquest (gave an eta then went dead for a year). people went nutz.

we try not to give out an ETA unless we can stick to it. it just so happens THIS patch was at a bad time when our coders were doing other things or had real life things to tend to. its going much smoother now that Waz has came foward with some helpful code.



Trust me, any other time (when EQEmu works with current patch) you would LOVE IT.

[KillsTheWeak]

Very odd that the admins here consider handing out everquest files, warez. It's not like you can do much with those files. The current patcher has a limit on what you can download. There's patch archives all around the net (most in odd languages) that host old patches, nothing sense december 2001 tho. I've yet to see them shutdown. If Verant wants to shut you guys down they will. The software you are providing is 'warez', it's taking money away from the game developers. You can say ya, well ya but people still pay to play online cause after awhile playing by yourself or with a few friends are boring, well not to me, just less people to take your kills :) So right there verant is loosing 12 bucks a month due to your software :) That is why it is warez, so basically saying dont distribute files is like when you download crackz for software and it says for evalution purposes only :) It's so contridicting :) Than there's obiously people who have these few files, cause i see people playing on servers, there just being greedy and not sharing :) It's not like we didn't buy the game, maybe i'll call up verant and ask them for the old files so i can use it on an emulator, wonder what they'll say :) For some reason not very many people know about this emulator, even tho it has progressed far enough to be very playable, i only found a few post on google saying eqemu was shutdown by lawyers or such, which is bull of course :) I guess the way your handeling things is keep this emulator pretty secretive :P Hmm wonder if i went to far for this post? Probably i do ramble to the point of being band :) Yet if i was i could just use a proxy to get in, doesn't really matter tho, seeing sourceforge hosts your files, and i'll just download from there :)
Hmm ya rambled long enough :)

[Lurker_005]

If the existance of other software that hurts your software sales is Warez then IE is warez cause it hurt Netscapes browser sales.

Plus you imply that dirtributing a file from another program is not warez??? Regardless of usability handing out a file from someone elses software can be considered Warez.

The bottom line is that the people making the emu and running this board don't want to get into a legal battle with verant. And to protect themselves they ask that you abide by these rules. Otherwise they don't want to be associated with you.

The argument that it does not make sense to you is meaningless, because it isn't you that verant would go after.

An emu can be shut down due to threats, or legal fees, making their life miserable, or actual legal action. In the end it doesn't matter.

[killspree]

Until you see Verant say that distributing the files to others is ok, then it's warez.

[Shawn319]

All it takes is one Cease and desist e-mail and its over. I hope it doesnt come to that but you never know.

[KillsTheWeak]

Hmm now thats totally different. Competition like netscape versus ie isnt warez :P cause netscape aint using ie code to progress. Emulators are different, there using other peoples software, hence the warez. Verant assumes when they sell you the client your using it to connect to there servers, hence thats why they say don't make an emulator out of it in the license agreement :) There not licensing the software to you to use for personal use. Warez goes way beyond distribution copywrited software :) Warez is an idea, and the idea of such is that your getting something for free that you shouldnt, books software, online time, etc....

[Raize]

All it takes is one Cease and desist e-mail and its over. I hope it doesnt come to that but you never know.

Actually, saying that right there is reason enough for them to do it. It costs Verant virtually nothing to send a cease and desist.

What you need to do is portray the image that you are well able to litigate if necessary. In fact, the reason I intend to distribute the files is precisely because I have the financial resources to deal with Verant should they find it necessary to pursue legal action.

Also, if necessary, this emulators could work like Fairlight, Deviance, and other cracking groups currently do: without any centralized location. Because of decentralization, these cracking groups will exist indefinitely. And I can assure you that the FBI would much rather catch a cracking group costing software companies millions in dollars every year than they would catching an emulator group that barely even makes a dent in Verant's revenues.

But even decentralization can fail against a dedicated FBI agent. In fact, a number of the groups either end up getting caught all socializing in one IRC room where they are individually located for a simultaneous bust, or they are looked up one at a time, till the FBI has a good idea of the number of them that can be caught at once.

If even one of them fails to get apprehended, they can cause a ruckus though. Which is why groups oftentimes "create" new personalities to furthur hide their true number. It is rumored that some cracking groups might only be two or three people where the number appears to be twenty.

Also, cracker location can be narrowed down by checking to see which games from which publishers are being warez'd. Or by marking CDs in different regions with different "loose files" that identify what part of the US/Canada the software was sent to.

Anyway, I've talked to long. But the main point here is don't say that you'll give up if Verant sends a cease and desist, because it costs them virtually nothing to do so. Just run the emulator as you see fit and if you are contacted, deal with whatever situation confronts you. If they say to remove a link here or there, then tell them you'll agree if they'll agree to contact you about material they find legally questionable *before* pursuing legal action.

You might find that they honestly don't give a shit that 50 people use the emulator at the same time they are paying Verant for access. They aren't down any money, and they have happy customers. There's only a select handful of emulator users that probably don't have an account anyway, so they risk losing more users (irrate customers who are avid participaters of the emulator project) then they would gain if they shut you down.

You have far more sway in talks with Verant than you think. After all, you have a website. If they tell you to shut everything down related to EQ, you can still leave up a big nasty message requesting that those with accounts through Verant quit over the actions they took to shut down the emu.

It's a question of numbers. Verant will only show legitimate interest in shutting down the mod if the numbers swing their way. And by saying a cease and desist will go unappealed, you're making it financially feasible for them to shut the project down.

[Shawn319]

I'm not gonna go any further with the legal debate. so far everything has been smooth (probably because very few people use the emu, compaired to people that play EQ). I'll let you have the last word, then i'm gonna lock the thread :)

[Mori]

This argument doesn't make sense. If someone owns Everquest don't they have the right to its patches? I don't see how an owner of this game can be sued for patching an older version. I guess you guys just can't tell who owns everquest or not but don't you have to own everquest even to get the files you consider warez? Tribes 2 gives out its patches and doesn't consider warez. I bet you could search for about 2 hours on google and probably find old patches of Everquest. How is giving out an older version of a file you've already had warez?

It just doesn't make sense...

[Mori]

Also, another reason they don't give ETAs is they really don't know when its going to end. They have no idea, they're just trying to sort of compatibility issues and if they finish that (which they have no idea of how long it will take) they will be done :-).

[Shawn319]

We dont wana mess with the legality of everything. thats what its against the rules.

If we make a rule that says you can't wear orange flip-flops around the house while clucking like a chicken then if you do it and we find out, dont depend on your accounts being good for very long. :)

[Mori]

lol



So basically you're saying that it isn't neccesarilly warez/illlegal, its just you don't want to risk it?

[Shawn319]

Think whatever you want. I didnt go to law school so i dont know for SURE.

just follow our rules please :)