The current system

[corvanus]

doesnt seem like any are updated anymore, no offense but i see very little comming out from the development team ive been ghosting for sometime running my own minilogin based server for a few years now... and i see a growing problem, and please note that i do not mean to step on any toes or be rude but only to address an issue that i see...

I see a ton of people on these forums like you cavedude with developer under their name or "master programmer" or this or that, yet where is all the developing? a line or two in a changelog? one or two fixes every couple of months? i remember when there were updates almost more then once a week? what is the purpose of open source if none of us can actually contribute? why is the cvs repo locked off from the community as a whole to post their own updates? its obvious that many of the code submissions dont make it in the code... My question is why doesnt the communityhave the abbility to update it, and where are the leaders of the project? where are the updates and changes?

it seems to me that more focus is put into say peq then making the emu better as a whole on the current development teams part atleast, the community tries but the developers dont bother keeping up with us or even responding to submissions in coding from us.

to cut it down to a few words... eqemu is beginning to stagnate, fizzle out, because it would seem the dev team has lost touch with us and the project as a whole because its more important to post here instead of doing the coding integrating submissions, i see alot of posts get closed and people get banned but wheres the work on the emu and why cant we the community be more active in its development instead of the "Gods of the cvs" attitude that seems to prevail?

[corvanus]

i wold like to say i could be wrong here its just an observation but i think alot of people have alot of good ideas and code snippets and what not to contribute personally and i just dont undestand why this isnt more community based i mean this is supposed to be an open source project is it not?

but what is happening is that we have a ton of people running servers doing their own stuff and not sharing their fixes and edits for whatever reason or the other ontop of that they might not think itll make it into the release code, plus who wants to submit code to have it attributed to whatever dev puts it into the release and changelog?

[cavedude]

http://www.projecteq.net/phpBB2 is why I have that title. I put a TON of time into PEQ. That's why it has focus, because we have a whole group of people working on it. That and much like the EQEmu code, it has a very long way to go.

Why is the CVS locked off? Simple, despite the opinions of many, the EQEmu code has standards. All code that goes into CVS has to pass through a quality check. It isn't perfect, but it certainly helps to keep the crap out. There was once a time when EQEmu would fail to compile every other commit, things would constantly be broken, blah blah. That hasn't been a problem in years. When FNW took over one of the first things he did was clean up the pile we called code. Since then, the project has been clear sailing for the most part. If CVS was opened to the public, our code would go back to that shit state very quickly.

The vast majority of the code on the forums makes it into the code. If it doesn't, than there is either something wrong with it or it was overlooked. The latter doesn't happen as much as we have several people keeping an eye on the developmental forums for gems. If code on the forums is border line, I know many times KLS or Wild will either clean it up, or rewrite it with a different approach. So, the work from the forums DOES make it in.

The project has been slow for 2 months, it happens. Look at the commit dates. The few coders here have lives. EQEmu has advanced in leaps and bounds in the past year and a half. It is more playable now than ever by far. EQEmu is far from stagnate, especially when you look at our past.

Now, let me ask, what exactly have YOU done to help things?

[corvanus]

sorry but i wont submit code to have you the devs rip it off and claim it as yours by claiming it doesnt meet standards and "rewriting it" with your byline on it, but that is my personal reason why i do not submit any of my code because it is just that my code and since i wont have someone elses name attached to it i wont submit it though i do give it to certaion people via pm or email or other medium it is with the expressed condition that it not be posted for the dev team to take credit for.

as for looking at the past yes lets devn00b and image did more then most of the developers currently here in far less time they did things like write the login server where is there credit for that?

I would hardly call their work shit as you just clearly did i still have jsut about ever release that ever came out of the emulator code and i never had issues compiling or running it. and to claim you the current dev team are gods gift to the emulator and everything before was shit is just plain wrong and totally rude and disrespectfull to those who BUILD this project long before YOU Even knew about it.

[corvanus]

your words show a total lack of respect for BOTH the old developers who MAD eqemu and gave you all a foundation to stand on and a total lack of respect for the abbilities of the community how can you sit there and call other peoples work shit and say if the cvs was open we would turn eqemu into shit? that is totally outrageous, and to say the code is clean is again outrageous because guess what it isnt it still has a long way to go.

I didnt turn this post into a flame session but as always insults have to start flying when someone questions those in "power" guess what without US the cummunity you would have no project it would be empty and dead so how about you guys actually LISTEN To us once in a while instead of flaming and basicly calling us substandard as you JUST did that was COMPLETELY uncaled for. i wont get into a developers pissing contest with you because if i threw my coding resume on the table i would probably embarrass you suffices to say i have been in this busines long enough to have worked on mainframes.

I request an appology for you besmirching everyone but yourselves the dev team with your rude statements that our work would be shit

[cavedude]

Yes, when many people have access to a CVS without organization it turns to shit very quickly. It's no attack on the individual coders, it's just part of life. That's why we have governments. Anarchy doesn't work in the civilized world. To give you a prime example, Developer A codes in a change to let's say AC. At the same time Developer B is working on an overall combat overhaul. The two didn't communicate and both patches get committed. Combat is now broken. Odds are they will communicate, but if CVS was made public as you propose, some asshole can and will come along and submit their code with no regards to others.

Check the changelog, credit is ALWAYS given to people for their work, even if it needed to be changed.

Yes my friend, there was indeed a time when EQEmu would find itself broken every other patch, or many systems became broken. The reason was there were too many people working on the project and they did not properly communicate with each other. So, while it did seem like it was moving quickly, it was also getting pushed back at the same time. In this current era, we aren't seeing commits as much, but there are far fewer conflicts, and so we have very little set backs. I did not attack any one developer. Anybody who has ever been given access to the code has been a top notch coder.

You want power in this community? Contribute instead of whining and attacking. That's how I did it, and how FNW did it, and how devn00b and image before us did it. Let's not forget Lethal, Wize, Scorp, Doodman, Roegan, Windcatcher, Rangerdown, tcsmyworld, drawde, Wildcard, KLS, Angelox, etc, etc... If any of them had decided to complain instead of actually helping the community, we'd still be stuck in the dark ages.

Put your damn resume on the table. Write something and post it on the forums. I don't think you can/will.

You want an apology after you attacked me by name? Who's full of themselves?

[corvanus]

i didnt attack anyone i said the project is stagnating because the developers( all of you) seem to be loosing interest which is fine it happens but if you dont wish to be doing what you are doing then turn it over to someone who does, burnout happens spreading ones self too thin happens but to let the project suffer because of that is quite simply immature.

you want a resume? somehow i dont think that would accomplish much. suffices to say ive been coding in various languages for over 20 years and i will leave it at that from fortran to binary to perl to php and on up to actionscript shockwave and other forms of scripting including database development.

the entire point of this community system is to communicate which is what i am doing this is a concern, people seem to be loosing interest simple as that. posting on the forums has become more important then development, peq is your priority which is fine.

Simple fact is you got pissed and nasty because i brought up a very valid concern one which i have seen again and again through the years ive been using the emulator.

we have an irc server that is always silent we have forums where people get banned left and right for disagreeing with the current powers that be's view on things. we have a ton of broken things in the code itself that have been broken since day one and through all of that it is caused by mainly people not listening to one another chastise me if you will but it is my oppinion and i am entitled to it.

I dont want power in the community i want the community to be that a community where all voices are heard even when they dont agree with those of the people in control. where valid concerns arent met with scorn and insults and condescending attitudes. where when people submit coding its worked on faster and everyone gets credit.

I know from past experience from submitting coding in the past that made it into release and credit was stolen by one of the development team with no mention of me that it does not always get accredited to the original coder.

[cavedude]

Nobody is losing interest, people just have other things going on. Spring is a tough time for many people. Many companies do maintenance, upgrades, etc on their equipment this time of year for the impending summer. Of course the hot summer months wreak havoc on electrical equipment. Since we're emulating a MMO, it's likely many of us are in the IT industry.

No, I don't want a resume, that's just a piece of paper that can be made to say anything. Didn't you know I served as the King of England for a winter? ;) What I was trying to do is get you to stop this foolish bickering we have going on and start doing more productive things. Make a code fix, write a quest, something.

I got nasty mainly because in your first post you called me out by name, and hinted at that I don't do anything, or don't deserve the title I have. That's what pissed me off. The secondary reason was I've become sick of people complaining who don't contribute. (And if you have done so, I'm sorry, but I don't remember seeing your name anywhere) I know I can't speak for anybody else but I know it feels like I do all this work only to get shit thrown back at me. Do this, do that, fix this, fix that. It's infuriating.

I usually only idle in IRC and have no control, so I don't know what happens there. So, I can't say anything about that topic.

If something is broken in the code, fix it and post it. Pestering developers to do it isn't the way to get it done, and goes back to my point above where we are (often) demanded to fix things.

I think all voices are heard. I know I listen to everybody, and I try to get everything into the db/quests that gets posted, even if it needs some work on my part. I may overlook a lot, but that's because I'm one person, and so many people contribute it is often hard to keep up. That's ignoring that fact that I also maintain Grand Creation which has its own set of responsibilities.

Could you please post specific details about code being stolen? A forum thread and changelog in comparison, or something along those lines. You can even PM it to me if you want for privacy. I seriously doubt it has happened in recent history, and without hard evidence you can't make an accusation like that.

[cavedude]

Moving this to Off-Topic as it does not belong in the original thread.

[erik_llewellyn]

Give em both barrels Cavedude. I have followed, played, and setup servers for EQEmu for over 4 years now and I can attest the mound of poo that the code used to be. I have had no issues in all that time with anyone in the forums or the project and most are willing to take the time to re-explain something even if it's in 10000000000 other threads. As you pointed out, if you want something done, take the time and learn how to fix it yourself. All of the master programmers and devs in the community will bend over backwards to help you out with answering questions and tweaking code, they just don't have time to do every little want or desire that comes up. I know first hand how long it can take to write a functional code/program and there can simply never bee too many programmers for something as large scale as an MMO.

To all the doomsayers out there, just remember this emulator will be alive and well long after EQLive gets the plug pulled. :)

[ChaosSlayer]

corvanus - download the source code- its open to anyone.
Do your modifications, and then post the whole thing with your modifications on your own website - this way you will get all the credit for your hard work.. given anyone chooses to download your code over EQemu's code...

[mattmeck]

Saying this isnt open source because people get banned from the forums is a big load a cow doo doo.

If you go to any open source community and act like an ass clown you will be banned from the forums.

Open source means the code is open source, not the forums.

The code is free for anyone to look at, download and edit.

The forums are paid for and owned, Rogean paid for it this time around, the box that the login server and forums are on are paid for, Doodman did this I think.

Forums are here to be nice and are not required at all to call this open source, you have access to the code, and nobody has ever been blocked from downloading it, that make this open source.

Now take a deep breath, have a beer (if old enough) lay off the coffee and rethink your arguments because they are flawed. Every person who submitted a code fix, even if it was modified before going in, has been credited with the work.

[corvanus]

matt i am sorry but i submitted code back when 0.7.x was fairly new and (my mistake in the pm cavedude)which was a fix to windcatcher's code and sql he then deleted my posts changed the code and put it as his own work in the changelog which is why i left the forums and just recently reregistered if you wish i can dig through my code and get the fixes mentioned as well as his code before it was changed as i save well everything lol

im quite old enough to have a beer but dont usually have them at 6 am lol

[mattmeck]

Windcatcher has never been an EQEmu developer, he works on side projects.

If he did that he was wrong, however using him as an example of what EQEmu does (when he isnt a developer) is another flawed argument!

[cavedude]

Going back to 8/10/03 Windcatcher's name only appears once in the changelog:

==09/15/2005
FatherNitwit: Fixed coin trading bug reported by Windcatcher

You can grab the full changelog from CVS if you wish to confirm.

I think it's really messed up to drag his name through the mud. He's a good guy, and has been a huge contributor to EQEmu. His 3rd party tools are top notch. Why lie?

[Amra]

Every time I log in to these forums I see some message from some disgruntled person posting random crap about something and acting dumb. They ask if they can use another client (why titanium), or this code is crap and doesn't work etc. I am sure they are some user from a long while ago that didn't get their way or someone made them mad and they decide every now and then to post random crap on the forums. It's not just this person. There are a couple others.

Like cavedude said, windcatcher is a major contributer to eqemu. Either directly or indirectly he has done a hell of a lot for the project. Your talking about some code that was submitted 3 years ago? Why would you even care by now?

If you don't like it go away. Why waste your freakin time.

[fault]

I would pretty much say CD works his can off day in and day out with the PEQ databases, Which in reality is currently the most updated and well kept database/quest team for eqemu. To say or even badger him about *not doing anything for eqemu* is a load of bull.

as for the disagreement bans that were spoke of, I think I have recently *dissagreed* or made some comments apart from what cd and other devs feel/think, and I haven't been banned.. Kinda disproves your statement there.

If you go to any open source community and act like an ass clown you will be banned from the forums.

Open source means the code is open source, not the forums.

Corv, to have any decent emu, it takes years to develop it, REALLY good ones go slowly with clean code, Just as EQEMU is going, I can point out several MMO emus that have rushed things and have ended up with complete and utter garbage for code with no hope of fixing it except by rewriting everything from scratch.

If you have code to add then submit it, get of the high horse and help out, it is open source which means anyone can submit code for it.

[corvanus]

to modify my prior post wildcardx was the one who did it not windcatcher my appology wind now that said peq isnt eqemu is it that is a seperate project, and if he is incharge of that project it doesnt or shouldnt grant him developer titles and powers here unless he is developing code for the emu

To see all the disagreement bans simply look in the memberslist or the idiot posters category which i must say is REAL mature to call others an idiot publicly like that great work admins oh yeah thats really going to encourage others to be involved...

Amra i would suggest you either calm down or stop posting you show both your ignorance and immaturity with such a rude post so i give you a thought... grow up or shut up and 0.7 is not 3 years old and code is code 1 day or 10 years it is still MY Code and shouldnt have been ripped off the way it was. as for "random crap" it is far from that it was a suggestion and concern as was previously explained and you are just an immature and rude angry persona nd i have no further time to waste on YOU.

As for wildcardx (AGAIN SORRY WINDCATCHER) he did steal my code and delete my posts my code was part of the fixes that made this compatable with mysql 5 yet you dont see any mention of it not comming from anyone but him and that sickens me opensource or not it still came from MY Brain not his if i wished to press the issue i could easily get a friend involved who knows firsthand that i fixed the code but its not worth my time for one for two it would do no good anyway.

I love how the 15 year old trollers have to come shoot their mouth off in defense and offense please littleone run along your mommy is calling you

i ask that this post be closed or deleted before more flamers and trollers decide to come shoot their mouths off as well

[So_1337]

You know, you aren't the first one to complain about code being ripped off. I know that's one of devn00b's major gripes as well. That's really troubling to me, and I really wish there were some way to heal those old wounds and get things sorted out so that everyone's happy and can get back to what's important; moving this project forward. However, we can only deal with what we're given, and most of the folks doing heavy work now and submitting/committing code weren't around for the past drama.

When was the last time you saw a post from FNW? I think the last time I saw a Doodman post was the whole login server debacle. (Please, oh please, don't let it be a mistake for me to bring that up...)

Are things here a little weird as far as leadership goes? Sure. Have there been mistakes in the past? Absolutely. Will I stop sounding like Donald Rumsfeld, asking myself questions and answering them? Definitely.

The people who have stepped up to keep things in order here and moving forward (Angelox, Mattmeck, Cavedude, and plenty more) have done so in spite of the way the forums have been managed in the past. The people who have been contributing code and fixes (Cavedude listed many, many coders, and there have even been recent ones putting in heavy work like TheLieka, Wild, and KLS) have built upon what's there in the past and might be just lucky enough, like myself, to have come into this project at a time where all the drama seemed like ancient history and they were able to start fresh without it weighing on them.

That's just my cock-eyed, optimistic view of things, though. I'd like to think we can all play nice, everyone can get credit for what they've done, and whatever issues people had with the previous project higher-ups can be shelved, since they aren't even around.

[TheLieka]

Fuck everyone with stars in their titles. They aren't living up to this guy's standards!

Dax

[cavedude]

to modify my prior post wildcardx was the one who did it not windcatcher my appology wind now that said peq isnt eqemu is it that is a seperate project, and if he is incharge of that project it doesnt or shouldnt grant him developer titles and powers here unless he is developing code for the emu

The next time you go to grab anything released by PEQ after 12/5/06, don't. Otherwise, you'll look like a big damn hypocrite. This includes any quest file written since then. PEQ, is in all reality a sub project of EQEmu. Everything that gets done there is released here. We depend on each other. Our content is useless without a server, and likewise, EQEmu's server is useless without content. To top that, The Grand Creation, run by me is used as a test server for the entire EQEmu project. A good amount of the bugs corrected in the code are posted on PEQ's forums, not here and picked up by KLS or Wild there. Database DEVELOPMENT is important as well, you know. But, if you need more traditional examples: http://eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24611, not to mention the several changes I have in the EQEmu changelog. They aren't much, but they are several more than you have I bet. I won't even get into the time spent here attempting to support and help others.

http://eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20807&highlight=mysql

Is that your post? I bet it is, the grammar is dead on. Do a search, it was never deleted.

You provided pre-compiled binaries (no code changes, you just compiled against 5.0, or had somebody do it for you!), and 2 (of 4) required, but elementary sql changes for 5.0 compatibility. This is in addition to attacking people (big fucking surprise) to the point that FNW directed this at you:

"Please do not take such a negative attitude in the future towards the work we do here. Talking crap about us or the code does nothing but aggrivate us, help is appriciated, criticism without solution provided is not."

Woah, still applies. Imagine that.

Wildcard provided the other 2 changes, and as he said he would have provided all 4 anyway, without you posting them. He was a huge advocate of moving to MySQL 5.0, I know this because he and I got into it a long, long while back regarding that and MyISAM vs. InnoDB table formats.

Now, here is the actual changelog entry that came out of that post:

==06/18/2006
FatherNitwit: necro DOT feign death fix (unicorn97211)
FatherNitwit: Disable kill-pet-on-feigndeath by default (features.h FEIGN_KILLS_PET)
MySQL 5 compatibility increases (WildcardX):
alter table account DROP packencrypt;
alter table character_ change extprofile extprofile blob NULL;
alter table player_corpses change data data blob NULL;
alter table player_corpses_backup change data data blob NULL;

As you can see, FNW committed that change since Wildcard didn't have access at the time. FNW gave credit to Wildcard. You don't ask FNW to give you credit, he does it on his own. Therefore, Wildcard had nothing to do with this. There wasn't even any code, it was 4 MySQL queries. So, you have bashed Wildcard's name because FNW gave him credit for 2 of 4 MySQL queries. Why didn't your name appear? All the money I have is on the fact that it was an oversight. Wild's post was newer, and provided all 4 queries. FNW probably saw that, and just put it in. I would have done the same in his place. Had you provided all 4 queries, your name would have appeared there.

I would suggest keeping your mouth shut, to prevent looking even more like a fool than you do now.

[Angelox]

Fuck everyone with stars in their titles. They aren't living up to this guy's standards!
Dax

Stars and titles was my idea, and I intended it for the rest of the people that work hard at making the Emulator better, but got no recognition for it - I also plan on going down the changelog, and adding all the other people who have done public work for the emulator. I did this because I knew how I felt when I started here, and what it's like to work, work, work, and no one notice. You see, all the Devs, Admins, Mods, they all have their titles, and they are well-earned. Now, anyone who works for the project gets a title, and that's because they become part of the project when they do.

I don't see Eqemu belonging to anyone, or anyone stealing code? for what? It's free open-source! We really need to back off the Devs, All they do is post more fixes, for us to download and do what we want with it. Widcardx has done nothing but work for me and you, he has done a TON of stuff, things that are not even in change log.

Sooo... I have this idea about us all working as a team, who cares if FNW is here or not? at least hes appointed active devs and still screens who has control over the whole project - Somebody has to be in charge. I've seen whole projects go to hell right after people who have the site get tired and quit. believe me, I've gotten frustrated and pissed too, but I'm not going against the system here over it, and do not wail on people who are giveing me the emulator.

PEQ is the official open-source Database, therefore, is an intricate part of the source. I KNOW the goal there is to provide an adaptable database for everyones needs, be it Triologly , Classic, POP, or what ever. But your help is needed, just like they post everything they do, you need to help with what you can add to it.

We've been doing well lately, I hope we can keep it all going.

[WildcardX]

Default
sorry but i wont submit code to have you the devs rip it off and claim it as yours by claiming it doesnt meet standards and "rewriting it" with your byline on it, but that is my personal reason why i do not submit any of my code because it is just that my code and since i wont have someone elses name attached to it i wont submit it though i do give it to certaion people via pm or email or other medium it is with the expressed condition that it not be posted for the dev team to take credit for.

corvanus,

If it makes you feel better, we'll toss you a cookie and put your name in the changelog.

WildcardX (corvanus): Implemented this line in the changelog.

btw, next time you wanna drag my name through the mud, get your facts right.

[Sakrateri]

Actions Talk Bullshit walks, See ya later Corv-anus. Dont like the site then go help out hackersquest, Im sure they can find a position for you. Please dont let this type of person get anyone worked up , I can see it is having an effect on you there Cave. The pervs just trying to waste everyones time cause his mom wont let him out of his room, Someone just delete this crap and ban his stupid ass.

[corvanus]

i dont care who did it and that was not the only time that my code was ripped off and credit given to another, and that is exactally why all my coding aside from basic basic mysql and perl quests will never be posted.

wild i didnt drag your name through the mud funny how you posted your code with missing changes and AFTER i posted those suddenly "oh i was gunna post that too" doesnt work like that it shows bad form on your part, thats like telling your boss at work that you were going to do someone elses stuff and should get credit for it since they did it before you? thats quite frankly retarted.

cavedude this might surprise you but ironicly i dont have anything to do with peq's database or quests other then writing them ironicly there are more then ax and peq to choose from and oh wow amazingly people can make their own. and frankly the one that i employ is far closer to live then both of those previously mentioned ones combined. so there is no hipocrasy here on my end.

I wont even touch the comments on the login server aside from to say that from my understanding it too was basicly ripped off from image and devn00b by doodman which i must say is pretty sad but dev released it to the public after he quit as a dev and i say right on for that, and while what he posted doesnt compile currently as it is missing functions and class members it is a good start for anyone who can find it on the net still.

funny how the devs answers are always the same when someone claims ripped off code is it not? is it not also funny that it hasnt just been me to make such a claim?

I have tried extremly hard not to go into a flame fest and now i am done it is quite simple if it smells like shit and looks like shit it generally is shit, and it is most certainly shitty that anyones code gets ripped off or claimed by someone else, and if i am not the only one to make such a claim maybe just maybe it is actually a real problem.

How would the developers feel if i took eqemu and changed the entire change log updated some of the code and put it out there with the loginserver code for anyone to download claiming it as MY work? im guessing that wouldnt go over very well, and the principal is the same if this is a community then it should be treated as such not have code stolen cause people say " hey i was going to post that!" how idiotic is that could you IMAGINE in a million years that flying at any normal buisiness?

yeah real mature ban me and delete it that is real mature i have broken no rule. even cavedude actually found some of the stuff i was refering to actually lending credence to what i said

and all you are doing by saying delete and ban him is showing that i was right anyone who disagrees gets banned so thank you for showing the entire community what i said was infact true and proving my point! by the way little boy i am probably twice your age

[corvanus]

by the way i would like to state that reguardless of what the code is it should never be ripped off and sak if you wish to throw insults at me feel free to do so but you only show how ignorant and immature you really are by doing so and i truly pitty you for being so insecure that you have to try attacking those whom you do not know

[mattmeck]

Enough is enough, you are bringing lies and just plain bull shit to this community.

Go away we dont want you here.