Let me try again. POP/luclin exp

[pms]

I'm going to restate the question as there seems to be some that are a tad too touchy on this board.

When eq is patching/checking where does it keep the file list ? Server-side or contained in your officially licensed and paid for eq installation directory ?

Inside the eq installation directory on my hard drive, installed from the official licensed and paid for eq CDROMs what files make up an entire zone ?

When I patched from the eqlive severs with the unmodified and just installed off my EQ CDROMs I noticed some zones now have .xmi files. What are those and are they required for playing eq on a server located on Sony/ Varent property and for which I have paid my monthly fees ?


Legal notice:

EverQuest and You

[Lurker_005]

Your previous post was a poorly hidden attemt of asking for pop files without buying the expansion. Which as you seem aware of is aginst the forum rules. Why is that being touchy?

If not for the first post making it obvious this one might not get closed for the same reason.

as far as XMI, they are music files. Midi files posibly.

[pms]

Thanks for your opinion but, really it was not my intent to 'ask' anyone for the files. I asked a question if they can be downloaded thru the patch mechanism. If you cant see the difference then I don't know what to tell you. Asking a question about the zone data files, again, has absoultly nothing to do with asking anyone to send me ANYTHING. The whole emulator is built on reverse engineering captured data packets and examining data files that are the property of Sony. To take a stand that asking if the files can be downloaded thru the patch tool is 'warez' while developing and discussing a system that allows you to completely circumvent Sony's fee collections is hypocrisy. While I agree that there should be no posting of links for file downloads or requests for the location to download the files, censoring any mention of the exsistance of said files or censoring of questions about them is absurd.

[xSigmax]

Understood totally, I love EQEmu and everything but<edited>

I dont want to have a comment .. LOL

[Lurker_005]

A lot of it comes down to where you think the line should be drawn.

-asking for files
-asking for links to files
-asking how to find/get the files

Doing any of the above on public boards exposes a lot of people to it that may not have even considered the idea, but now have the means to get the files.

I just fealt that the first post was over the line, and this one just seemed like it might be too much right after that other post.

[kunta]

but what about links to sony / eq's files? would this be warez? it is their files on their servers? if this is warez, I wont post anything about it, but if not, then I will post here how to get them.

[pms]

Seems like your trying too hard to justify the locking of the thread. I think you miss the point of why the rule was probably (probably because I didn't make it) made in the first place. To keep this board out of legal trouble by not providing direct links to copyrighted material. That will get you angry letters from lawyers. Given following the instructions given on this board for using the emulator alone violate the licensing of the EQ EULA and that isn't censored why censor one and not the other ? If I could change a file in the directory that caused the download of patches it would be NO different then changing the eqhost.txt files according to the EULA. Legally your danger would come from the DMCA and I can take a pretty good guess that the emulator and this board are already in violation of that.

[Monchichi]

NT

[kathgar]

Wow, you must be a great lawyer! Considering the DMCA only has to do with copyright protection mechanisms such as CSS(as in DVDs, not Casscading Style Sheets) and the such. Downloading the files without permision is Copyright Infringment and as such, with us and/or Sourceforge providing you with the information could really fuck us, which would not be good. Oh, and the emulator isn't illegal, oh no it violates some EULA... that I never accepted..that isn't really binding...You are lucky you aren't banned for making ANOTHER thread after the first one is locked.

"while developing and discussing a system that allows you to completely circumvent Sony's fee collections is hypocrisy"
Considering the emu is NO WHERE NEAR and will NEVER be remotely in the realm of their servers, we aren't taking much revenue. Infact, we might even be giving them some(people buying the game/expansions, not using/not using much their resources, people playing the emu then getting hooked on live..)

"While I agree that there should be no posting of links for file downloads or requests for the location to download the files, censoring any mention of the exsistance of said files or censoring of questions about them is absurd."

Did I censor anything? No, I did not delete any post, edit any post, I only locked the thread. Forcing someone who would want to give you said information via email but not through us.

Edit: IANAL, but IANAnIdiot and I have read things such as the DMCA, the Electronic theft act, blah balh balh..

[devn00b]

PMS: Whats so hard about accepting the rules that EQEmu has set down for the forums/irc? is that so hard? it is THERE board after all. you dont like the rules go elsewhere simple as that.

there are plenty of places that will answer/have the info you are looking for (tho i wont tell you).

[pms]

Go ahead and ban me if you like. That will keep me quiet if that's what you want. Getting information off this board is like pulling teeth. Ask a question and you are likely to be flamed by one of the 3-4 guys that hang around on this board full time looking for people to give shit to. This board seem to contain elements of both the official Sony EQ whine boards and the scriptkidz scene. I don't think I have ever seen such an unfirendly fucking board in my life. Instead of looking for imaginary 'warez' posts you should try putting a leash on the dog pound there and try and make this a board people care if they are banned from or not.

[kunta]

Your first post (in this thread) if completely off topic. It has nothing to do with the emulator, or even windows support for the EMULATOR. You are asking for help with the client. If you need help with the client, call sony, post in the off topic forum. What you are asking for has ZERO things to do with this emulator.

If you dont like how people respond to your post on this board, GO AWAY. Nobody is forcing you to stay here.

[pms]

Nobody has been particularly hard on any of my past posts. Its a general observation of the response to many of the posts in the support forums. Go read some and see what I mean. Seems like so much time is spent flaming over if it is the right forum or not or telling them to rtfm or 'is it warez' that the noise level makes half the threads not worth reading. I'll be honest, I don't care about if I read this board or not.. The files for the emulator are availible thru sourceforge and there is no real information to be had here that can't be found elsewhere. I'm only responding to this whole thing because I feel a need to defend my position and to show the hypocrisy of this whole thing. As I said, I do understand the legal need to keep the forum free from software but, the paranoia over things that even slightly might be considered 'warez' is pointless. I asked how I can change my installed files to download patches. How is that at all different then installing EQ and patching to play the emulator ? In both cases you have obtained the files to use the emulator and no software was obtained from the eqemu web pages. You can no longer use the latest eqemu without patching yet by Kathgars logic if anyone was to say to patch from sony before trying the emulator they would be promoting or asking for the 'warez' he is so scared of seeing here.

[kunta]

No, what you were asking is how to get files that sony didnt want you to have. From other posts in this forum, that isnt cool here, that has been posted, I even offered how to get those files, but then someone posted that its not ok, and I respect that. You should too. There are many other sources to find out how to get the files and they condone posting ways to get them. They are out there, you just have to find them. In other words, dont bring that here, dont even hint for that here. Your asking for something this community doesnt support, so respect that or expect to get pissed off people flaming you.

- Kunta

[a_Guest03]

If the food's free, the chef doesn't care if you liked it.

[pms]

Geeze guys..

Install EQ, download patches, play on emulator = Sony doesn't want you to do this.

Install eq, download patches for PoP, play on emulator = Sony doesn't want you to do this.

In no instance does sony want you to download anything from them for the purpose of using the emulator.

What the hell is so hard to understand ?

In both cases you have downloaded software from Sony that tey do not want you to have. You people need a serious reality check.

[kathgar]

It could also be said that they want you to patch, because then we have to fix shit..but i would like you to make a single post, saying WTF you want, "trick the client into downloading files it wouln't" or whatever you said is EASILY interereted as "Hey, I want to download the expansions with the patcher that it doesn't normally let you!".. which is warez. and you are saying you don't want to do that .. and that you do want to..

[pms]

LOL you still can't explain how the two are any different. Take a shot at that before deciding one is warez and the other is not. If the two things are the same then they should be treated the same. This thread is cracking me up. Look, its your board and you can do what ever you want and I don't care. You keep responding to me and claiming to be standing on some level of legality when in fact your not at all. Why don't you just come out an admit that the only reason one is allowed and not the other is because you say its so. Don't pretend that its for any other reason. You wont be the first or the last to end an argument that way. Otherwise explain how there is a difference between using, or telling people how to use, the files off the eq CDROM to play on the emulator is any different then telling someone if they change something in thier installation they will download patches from Sony for the zones they didn't have the CD for. In both cases you are using Sony's property against thier wishes. I think one problem that we are having here is that you don't really have a grasp of how software licensing works or what the word 'warez' actually means. Read the software license for EQ. You don't have to agree to it or not. If you bought and installed the files on your computer you agreed to it. And please stop calling it warez. The term doesnt fit at ALL

warez

/weirz/ A term used by software pirates use to describe a cracked game or application that is made available to the Internet, usually via FTP or telnet, often the pirate will make use of a site with lax security.

[kunta]

The patcher will download the files for you, with sonys permission wether they want you to or not. Its part of the "normal" game. Many people play on live servers and are downloading the files that way. Sony gives you these files without "cheating" their system.

What you want is to cheat sonys system and download files that you should not be able to download without buying the expansion.

If this is not clear enough for you, then too bad.

[kunta]

In both cases you are using Sony's property against thier wishes

Guess what, this messageboard community is not telling people how to patch, or even what to patch, and they arent going to tell you how to cheat the patcher either, go away

[kathgar]

Patching files you do have = service you paid for when you bought the game
Patching to download files you DONT have because they are part of an expansion = Copyright Infringment
And using the client to connect to the emu server isn't copyright infringment an anyway

I didn't agree to any EULA on installing, or playing, and since shrinkwrap licenses do not apply.. that means none

BTW, I'm not the one that made the forum rules

[pms]

The patcher will download the files for you, with sonys permission wether they want you to or not


So ? that doesn't make it legal to do so. You can use a gun to rob a bank. Doesn't mean its legal to because you can. Again read the licencing agreement. If you are not using the software as per the licensing agreement then you are in violation of it and subject to the same exact legal problems as if you downloaded files that weren't supposed to be downloaded using the patcher.

Your not going to win this argument from me because they are legally the same. If you want to make one illegal and the other not to help you sleep better at night then so be it. If you want to pretend they are different so laywers don't come close down your board then your fooling yourself. The fact is that if Sony really wanted to close this board down they could unless it is hosted outside the US and even then they probably could. The fact that the emulator code does not include any game data is probably the only thing that keeps it from being illegal. If they bundled the database with it then it would probably be illegal. This board provides the databases and instructions for using em. The data captured from eqlive more then likely is protected intellectual property and subject to all those nasty copyright laws. It would take Sony lawyers about three seconds to see all the spawns and quests stolen word for word from eqlive and sue you back into your mommy's basement if they wanted. By providing the databases and instructions for using them the board already is over the line. Making phoney judgement calls about some topics being 'warez' is just asinine besides having nothing to do with what warez actually are.

I was able to find the information before there was even a reply to my post so you don't need to worry about what people on this board will tell me or not.

@kathgar You really don't understand software licensing at all if you think patches are a 'service you paid for when you bought the game'

[Lurker_005]

pms tell you what, you run your own board, get a letter from sony's legal department and take it to court. Tell us the results and I'll buy that as being legal or not legal. You keep claiming what is legal an not based on your views/opinions, dosn't make it so. You keep saying that no one will point out a differance between what eqemu does and you want to do. Well eqemu dosn't do any circumventing in order to download files from sony.

Bottom line, forum rules apply. The reasons for the rules don't have to make sense to you or anyone else other than those running the forums. Interpeting, and inforceing those rules is up to the owners/admins/moderators. kathgar is an admin, so if he says it is out of line then it is.

[pms]

At least read my posts before commenting Lurker. I have said several times that if its his board that he can do whatever he wants. That being said I'm free to disagree with it as well. If he wants to ban me for disagreeing with him then thats his right too. If Lurker likes hanging out in places nobody disagrees with the 'rules' and everyone is afraid to speak up against them then I can recommend some choice places he might want to consider living. A lot of people try hard to avoid 'em but, some find them more comfortible.

Now as for knowing what is legal and how software licensining works I can only claim an informed opinion. At least that is better then an uninformed one. If you can show what I have said that isn't true then I will gladly either prove you wrong or accept yours as being correct. Unfortunatly till you actually tell me which are wrong I can't defend them. Sticking your tounge out and saying "You keep claiming what is legal an not based on your views/opinions" doesn't show me which points I was wrong on.

[kunta]

You know all of this is pointless, if you spent as much time searching for the files that you want as you did arguing, you would have them all by now. Took me 5 min to find a place to download cshome just now.

[pms]

I already said in an earlier post I found how to get them before even the first thread was replied to and locked. And of course it is to get them directly from Sony using the patch mechanism as the patcher does for you when your normally patching. Its just another thing that makes me laugh about all this. Not only is it not legally different its not physically different. Its all a silly fantasy the powers that be have made to feel better about things. Its thier site and so be it. You can ask me to abide by the rules while I'm here but, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Lots of laws in the non virtual world make no sense to me but, I don't like jail much so, I try and avoid breaking them.
If nothing else I hope this thread limits the use of the word 'warez' anyway. It just doesn't even slightly apply to this case.
While this was fun for a bit everyone is just spouting the 'if you don't like our rules don't play in our playground' line now and its getting old. Unless someone has something else to add that isn't just tired old ass kissing to the admins or 'you could have found the files faster if ...' I'll be happy to let it die already. Feel free to keep going if you want me to but, its old and I can tell I'm not dealing with the captains of the debate team here. Happy trails...

[Xarslik]

Plain and simple, EQEmu is NOT warez. If packet information collected was intellectual property, then Magelo would not exist.

Warez, as you quoted, is "A term used by software pirates use to describe a cracked game or application that is made available to the Internet, usually via FTP or telnet, often the pirate will make use of a site with lax security" which EQEmu is not at all.

Now, if I go out and BUY EverQuest, and any expansions, I am BUYING the eqgame.exe file, the vpatch, kpatch etc files required to use the patcher. By buying these I have legal right to download new files from the patcher, regardless of whether or not I have an active account.

However if I were to get the EverQuest data somewhere else, THAT is warez. That is why we cannot allow any transferring of EverQuest files on the boards. They can only be obtained normally if you have BOUGHT the game.

We make the exception with eqhost.txt as it is simple textual data. It's not a binary file of any sort, someone who's never played EQ could make one. Also it is CLIENT-SIDE, and VI cannot prevent me from doing ANYTHING to ANY everquest file of mine on my machine.

In your reference to skriptkiddies and flamers, etc. The majority of these types of open source projects will end up with boards full of flames. It's just how it works. EQEmu does not have its own PR department. They're a bunch of coders + a few users who've learned the ins and outs of the program, and they see some random person come in and post some simple error answered 5 times already. Usually a very indescript message about it, asking for "hlep!!" like they deserve utmost priority because THEY have an error, and the coders are responsible for EVERYTHING wrong. They get pissed, I know I would. It's very annoying when you yourself know the information can be easily obtained, but people are being too lazy to use common sense to find it. On a side note, most of everything I've learned involving the Emu and really anything on the computer was from me experimenting and discovering what I could do on my own, what does what, and what doing soandso does to an error I'm having. I don't immediately go on the forums and ask for help.

Sorry for the semi-rant, got off on a limb. But hopefully you get the point.

[kunta]

actually the eqhost.txt that is on this site has nothing to do with sony/verant, its just a text file that has some info in it. But other than that, good post

[DeletedUser]

Actually pms, Sony does consider downloading an expansion off their patchserver that you did not buy warez. You weren't here when the PoP beta files were released. Since I run the domain and webserver, guess who lost all their accounts? I did not even post the link here, and it wasn't hosted by us, but I was still threatened (and Sourceforge also) with legal action not even 4 hours after the link appeared on our forums.

That being said, are you going to refund me the 1000's of hours spent playing on the lost characters? I had over 600 days played since release. If you are, please, get a cashier's check made out to the address & name listed in the whois of the domain. The sum total would be around 860,000 USD. Thanks.

[pms]

>Plain and simple, EQEmu is NOT warez. If packet information >collected was intellectual property, then Magelo would not exist

Who said it was ? My point that telling someone how to change files in the eq directory to cause the patcher to download PoP files is not either. No more then changing them to point at someone elses server so you don't have to pay Sony any money. My thread was locked for being 'warez'. It had nothing to do with 'warez' Did you even read this thread or just skip to the end and add your two cents ?
The data from eqllive is so unique that it wouldn't take them three minutes in court to prove they were the sole creators of it and it was 'stolen' from them. Thats what copyrights are for. Do you belive if you record a song off the radio you now legally own it and can do whatever you want with it ? The whole point of my arguments is that to make a distinction on legality when your providing information that is clearly copyrighted (such as the databases) is hypocritical.

>By buying these I have legal right to download new files from >the patcher, regardless of whether or not I have an active >account

No no no no no.... You don't understand software licenses if you think this is true. You have no rights what so ever other then prescribed in the license, In fact, you don't even own the software under 99% of software licenses. You have only purchased the rights to use the software as prescribed under the license. Again EVERYTHING installed with the eq installer (inclucing eqhosts.txt) is covered. Take some time and actually read a couple of them. I think you'll be surprised. The thing is it is bad publicity and not cost effect for the companies to target individual violations or small companies (although this is changing as times get tougher). That is the only reason you don't see individuals not being held up on these things. They go after large companies that can pay the fines and nobody cares if they get screwed.

>Also it is CLIENT-SIDE, and VI cannot prevent me from doing >ANYTHING to ANY everquest file of mine on my machine.

They can withdraw the license to use the software which is pretty much what happens automatically when you break it. Again you obviously are confused about how software licensing works. Shit like this is why things like FSF and GNU were started. You have no real rights or ownership under most software licenses. Your not even legally allowed to transfer ownership in some cases. Its one of the things Sony used when trying to shut down the ebay crew. Sony proved they owned the data and the software. End of story.

[xSigmax]

I'm all for EQEmu, and if all you guys are for EQEmu, then you are probably for warez and whatever you can get free.

Face it, you use EQEmu cause your too cheap to pay 13$ a month ( or whatever the fuck it is ), or you just flat out hate VI.

I have read what, 26 posts, of total bullshit and im tired of it myself.

EverQuest server emulators are illegal, Sony and their lawyers have gotten rid of quite a few of them.

Downloading files from Sony's patcher, for a game you never bought, to let you play as if you had bought the game, is illegal.

Just my 2 cents.

Later,
Sigma

[pms]

I agree. Nothing new has been said for about 20 of those posts. Lets let this die. I keep having to explain the same thing over and over and its old already

[astemus]

You know what buddy? You're absolutely right. Why be against one and not the other? They're both illegal, so if you're gonna break the law, might as well go all the way, right? Leave no room for the powers that be to just tolerate things.

You want to know why things are like they are, well here is the reason, since i didn't really see anyone else except hogie touch on it.

EQEmu is an emulator that tries to emulate the EQlive servers. It does a nice job but is not anywhere near the content and stability that EQlive servers have. And the fact of the matter is, EQEmu isn't hurting them financially, in fact, if it does anything, it only helps them sell more software. We won't even mention the fact that 90 percent of the people that play EQEmu have 1-3 paying accounts on SOE's servers.

The answer is simple... The only thing keeping EQEmu from being shut down is the fact that it requires that a consumer buy products from SoE. So as long as EQEmu doesn't get the server capacity to handle more that 20 people online at a time on a broad scale, then this project has nothing to worry about. SoE isn't going to waste the time to really sue the team here. Offering solutions to bypass the patch security would give SoE a reason to drop this project. Offering solutions to bypass the current version and give old patch files would also fall under that.

It is obvious that you are new to the Emu. I don't disagree with you, but i have respect for this game, and for this project, and i would personally like to see this project continue.

And my own personal flame to you : It's really easy to draw lines between what is legal and what is illegal. You, my friend, need to grow up enough to see out of your windows and realize that there is more to life than just that line. Your 9th grade ethics have no place on this forum.

[pms]

My 9th grade ethics ? I can tell you didn't read thru my posts. Why bother since you dismiss my arguments without offering anything that shows them to be untrue. I am also not 'new to the emu' which doesn't have any bearing on what I was saying anyway.

>The only thing keeping EQEmu from being shut down is the fact >that it requires that a consumer buy products from SoE.

And you can back this up how ? How many people here are willing to come forward and say they bought the files to play the emulator ? <waits....> Nope. Nobody. Sorry this is a stupid idea. The reason they don't shut it is not cost effective to do so and legal cases can cause bad publicity. And as you said its not complete yet so, why bother. BUT, it is becoming more and more complete by the release. Its a race against EQ's EOL and the release of a emu thats a complete replacment for sony's servers. If the emulator gets too good too fast it WILL be shut down. Mark those words down and a year from now lets see who is right if eqlive is still generating income for Sony.

Now as for your idiotic attempt at a flame. What the hell are you saying ? You are wiser then me and somehow I should try to be as enlightened as you because you have it all figured out ? Besides having no idea who or what I am you completely missed the point of what started these posts. Hard to belive in your, obviously, elightened state but, somehow you missed that I was saying the idea of drawing a line between two things that are the same is stupid and in the end they are both illegal so what is the point ? I think the window your looking thru might need to be cleaned. You obviously can't see thru it.

[Xarslik]

Moderators: Please lock or delete this thread.

[Trumpcard]

PMS, 1st off let me say I understand where you are coming from, and it's obvious that you've thought out alot of your arguments. Let me offer my take on the whole matter.

1) Your original post can easily be construed as 'how do I get files that I havent purchased the release to patch'

quote 'When eq is patching/checking where does it keep the file list ? Server-side or contained in your officially licensed and paid for eq installation directory ?'

If you have the purchased the said release, then a file list is immaterial, you receive the files you are legally entitled to patch. Trying to circumvent this process to receive files you are not entitled to is illegal. So , you must be able to see how this is construed as a 'warez related' question. Even if you don't agree with anything else, you have to be able to see that point.

2) Legality of eqemu. This is sketchy, as there are few precedents, but EULA's, even if they did cover this sort of activity, are not very binding from a legal perspective. EQEMU does not seek to circumvent Verant in anyway, the only way we would be interfereing with them is if we were somehow redirecting production EQ players onto emulated servers. You called it reverse engineering, that is not a completely accurate assesment. Reverse engineering is when you have the product in hand, and can dissect it (the server in this case). Heres a good definition.
Reverse engineering (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci507015,00.html)

Since there is no way to obtain said machine code to reverse engineer what we are doing is really considered 're-engineering'. It as all built from the ground floor. Packet data to and from the servers is not classified information.

3) People buying EQ to play the emulator. Actually, I have personally talked to a few, so I know it has happened. Part of what turns alot of people off the idea of MMORPG's is the reoccuring expense. It was a turnoff to me at first, why would I keep paying for a game I've already bought? I doubt that anyone has quit playing EQ on the live servers to play it on the emulated ones. I have to agree that this project has probably brought EQ more revenue than it has taken. This is conjecture, so its completely debatable.

Now, if we were to come up with some miraclous feats of software engineering and be able to produce a server that could hold 500+ people, and completely emulate the live servers, I'm sure we would run into problems with verant. As it stands, the project is fun, and it allows people who play eq to try new things and obtain items they normally couldnt get. But how stable is this? Everytime the database is flushed, it's gone, theres no contractual obligation to protect anyones data, etc. I dont know of a single person who has started at level 1 and gone anywhere.
Will verant fight about it? I doubt it, I highly doubt they care, and even if they did, the project isnt doing anything from a software piracy standpoint. We certainly aren't promoting it, as you see from the fact your thread was locked when it was construed as such. As a matter of fact, Im purchasing PoP this week so I have the files available to goof with, even though I gave up my live account months ago. That is money that Verant would not see otherwise.

[pms]

@trumpcard See there can be intelligent debate about this. Thanks for bringing the discussion back to the real issues.

I am sure there may be a case or two where people bought the game to paly on the emulator. I guess i would just state that the percentage is so low to not be a factor in anything Sony considers beforre decing to go after the emu. I to know a bit about reverse engineering and emulators. Making an emulator that in no way uses any code from the origianl is not in violation of the law. Thats why they continue to exsist fot more then just eq. I noted back in previous post that what is probably covered under intellectual property rights is the data contained in the databases. I would guess thats why no database is bundled with the emu binaries. I suspect the developers know the risk there.
I'll disagree with the use of the term warez but, certainly I understand what the people running this board (which aren't always the developers I'm guessing) . I don't think I ever said that I didn't understand what they were trying to prevent. I just feel the whole argument pointless since there exsists things on this board that are equally illegal under the law. It was others that suggested that patching eq to play the emulator is legal while patching files you didn't buy is not. This is just wrong. They are equally illegal even if you did not agree to the EULA. By opening and installing the EQ software you agreed to the licensing agreement. This battle has been fought in court many times before and the software companies always win. It is law like it or not.
Ya know I stopped caring about the files or the if its allowed here or not long ago in this thread. It is certainly the right of the mods to delete or lock anything they want. I'm opinionated and after 10 years working for software companies I like to think I understand licenses and what the 'other guys' think from time to time. I'm just arguing the point to argue the point. Because the mods say so doesn't change what I feel to be the facts. Honestly, as someone that has been a long time supporter of GNU and FSF I think it is important that the users of the emu at least realize that this all exsists in a pretty grey area and the developers are taking some risks in doing this. Its not just all fun and games. they wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Some people think software should be free and the phrase 'intellectual property rights' hurts everyone.

[Trumpcard]

I agree that the databases definately constitute an 'intellectual property' violation. Personally, I don't see why everyone is so eager to reproduce the eq environment, personally I thought one of the neatest things about the project was creating completely new worlds. Im sure because of the massive scope of the eq gameworld its not a real option in alot of cases. If there were better tools to support the creation of EQEMU databases, we would probably see alot more unique content in the servers. Leaving the database out of the eqemu project does exactly that, keeps anything that can be construed as being owned by Verant seperate.

As far as patching for one and not the other, I disagree here. If that were the case, valid login authentication would be done PRIOR to the patching process to ensure you are a valid game user, as it stands now, when you purchase the game, you have in essense purchased the right to bugfixes they distribute, whether you are a current eq subscriber or not. I realize this can be construed as 'The door wasn't locked, so I figured it wasnt breaking and entering going into the house' logic , but I don't consider it to be the same. I don't think the use of the eq client , which is owned by you, not by Verant, can be construed as warez. Warez would be making it possible for someone who plays the game to play in the EQ world with an illegal copy.
In these cases, a person that warez EQ to play on the emulator is not a EQ client, and had no intentions of being one, so once again, there is no loss of revenue for Verant. Once again, the possibilty is strong that someone formerly uninterested in EQ might be persuaded to play in the Verant game world because of this interaction, where otherwise they would have been playing GTA3, and at that point they would be required to have a valid key (which they are giving away now, so it can be argued that the original EQ trilogy has now been unofficially put in the public domain since it is free to download online complete with CD-KEY). Its all conjecture once again, but I don't see how anything in the project is causing a loss of revenue for big business.

I agree though, most of it is a great big grey area, but I also disagree with the EULA and licensing agreements. Although the EULA has been successfully upheld in court on a few isolated occasions, it has failed to be upheld many more times.

I would think to truly get to the bottom of the matter, you would have to have a lawyer really go over the specifics (is there a lawyer in the house?) , and still, the intrepretation of the law varies from state to state. Personally, I want to see Verant and EQ prosper, I think they innovated alot of what the MMORPG industry is today.

[Xarslik]

I definitely agree with Trumpcard about unique content.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do right now: Setup an "Arena Challenge" where you take on a challenge, fighting harder and harder creatures, to get to lvl65 with some quality custom-gear. However the way the emu is right now, there's very little documentation and discussion on the specifics of complex customization. I've had to go about editing code myself to achieve most of my desired quest-system results, as well as trying a multitude of different things to understand exactly how parts of the emu work. Now for the normal user this can be overwhelming, if we focused more on the custom side of the emu we definitely would see more unique servers. I'm definitely not criticizing the developers, they're doing a great job, but if you subtract the EQ NPC\Item etc databases, there's a lot less to do atm.

One final comment on the patchers: I would say that the EQ Patcher is definitely more along the lines of a service given to you for buying the software. Any non-online server run software has a website or integrated patcher to keep it up to date, this is very common now a days with bugs arising out of every game released. Therefore buying the game and not paying for an online account, while still using the patcher, is perfectly legal. The CD-KEY is what you're buying if you want to play online. As it stands, ppatch.exe allows you to check the "Planes of Power" option in the patcher, and the only legal way to obtain this file is by buying PoP. Now giving someone this file breaks the boards rule on warez. There may be other transactions that go across this board that could be constituted as warez, however generally they are textual, and we seem to impose a limit on binary transactions. So while under the generalized title of "warez", giving someone ppatch.exe and eqhost.txt is one in the same, in these boards it is not. That is what you, and everyone else must understand.

[astemus]

Hmm... Just wondering at what point is this thead considered off topic? Best to lock or move this to general discussion.

[astemus]

Hey, and as long as we're off topic... I've personally leveled from lvl 1 to 50 (cleric) and to 40 on a warrior... so it can be done, and without the help of "uber" custom armor, just a set of cleric quest armor and crafted...

[pms]

Since this thread has gone about as far as it can and everyone is being nice I'll just make the point one last time then I'll drop the whole damn thing.

Even though you paid money for the software you don't own it. Its a nasty fact of life in the software licensing world. You own nothing. You just paid for the right to use it as they allow. Thats what the license says. Sony owns all rights to the software on your computer and on the CD. You may not like it but, its how the system works. You don't own the CD, the software contaned on it, or even the software now on your hard drive. Its illegal to transfer or modify or use for any purpose other then what they allow. Its stupid, its not often enforced but, when it is the software company always wins. As microsoft is doing right now in the case of the company that sold MS software that got sold to another owner. Microsoft removed thier rights to even sell MS software. You can buy a 1000 copies of eq or MS office and you actually own nothing but, 1000 software licenses. Welcome to the real world Neo.

[astemus]

I'll buy that. I think everyone can agree on that. We own only the metal it sits on. And i'm sure we can all agree that there are certain things that we should and shouldn't do for the sake of the project's life. And even if we all don't agree, it doesn't matter because it's not our project. Everyone has the right to their opinion. Now, lets just give the top post spot back to someone asking the same question for the 100th time...