View Full Version : Enlightened Dark: Ascension
Mariomario
02-19-2013, 11:05 AM
After the demise of the original Enlightened Dark I took some time off, focused on school, played some new games, ventured out and learned new things. Running into a long time friend allowed me to regain my thirst for developing and with that the introduction of a new server.
I want to get some peoples' feedback on whether or not they would play on a server like this and if my pursuit is worthwhile or not. Enlightened Dark was successful because it followed a similar path to live EQ, but without the grueling grind or requirement for 25+ people to get things done, but I want to stray from that path, well mostly. Some highlights to this new server include:
-Solo and group progression (No 10+ man raids)
-Pure customization
-16 all new classes around the board (No original classes)
-8 Basic starting classes each with their own unique play style and spells/skills
-8 Ascended classes, making your power reach new heights with new skills, better gear assortment, increased stats, and much more
Classes:
Lancer -> Dragoon
Knight -> Crusader
Champion -> Myrmidon
Blackguard -> Assassin
Archer -> Hunter
Mystic -> Prophet
Sage -> Sorceror
Priest -> Archon
-Each basic class comes with their own base skills and unique weaponry, i.e. A lancer equips a spear and a shield, a knight may equip dual swords or sword/shield, archer wields a bow with endless arrows, mystic may have their own companion with both offensive and defensive spells and much much more.
-All classes gain unique abilities and spells as they level up, certain classes also have skills that are dependent on the items they equip, for instance a Lancer starts with the skill Shield Bash I and the damage is depended on the shield's AC, the lancer's level and the base damage initially. So potentially at level 1 with an exquisite shield he could bash things for thousands of damage.
-The crafting system will be completely redone to be more effective and allow people to craft their own gear if they so choose. Crafted gear will also contain extra augment slots. Crafting will be limited to smithing, tailoring, alchemy, jewelcrafting and brewing.
-Another feature will include upgradeable gear, allowing you to farm materials to increase your gear's stats without actually needing to find new gear.
-There will be progression with end dungeons and will REQUIRE a group to accomplish to begin with, but the better your gear the easier things will become. Things will also eventually be attuned for those ascended classes and will require those better abilities and gear to overcome.
-World bosses will be available at all times starting from approx level 15 up to the level cap. They will offer enhanced rewards, but do not think to defeat them easily.
-Current level cap for basic classes will be level 50. Upon reaching level 50 and progressing through some content they will be offered an extensive quest to undergo their ascension, where they can become a much more powerful version of their class. Ascended classes start at level 30 and have a level cap of 80.
-Each class will have an epic weapon available for through a special quest, but how that will be implemented has not been determined.
This is just a general layout of where I eventually want this server to go and what I have in store. Enlightened Dark was successful once and will be again in its all new version Enlightened Dark: Ascension.
J3wish
02-19-2013, 06:23 PM
I honestly think this would be an awesome idea.
carpediembr
03-02-2013, 02:41 PM
Your server were always the best, I`ll fully support your server
(Came in here quick as soon as I saw it up & locked)
Mariomario
03-02-2013, 04:09 PM
At the moment I have 4/8 basic classes done. Every class has skills/spells that are dependent based upon their actual weapon equipped. In case of the casters who dont melee their initial spell increases based on the spell damage/heal amount on the weapon. This allows a constant usage of spells/skills where they wont become useless regardless of how high content goes, without the need of constantly introducing new spells to compensate for increased content.
After I get the basic 8 classes done and content to support them upto level 50 I will release a beta version for people to test out. If the server is popular and intriguing I can continue with the 8 ascended classes which will include unique and brand new abilities for those classes including spells, skills, gear and alternate advancement abilities.
Kreacher
03-03-2013, 03:58 PM
I've been waiting for you to bring the server back up but I noticed that there's no monk or even a monk type class? :shock:
Mariomario
03-03-2013, 11:03 PM
No there is no monk type class. The pure dps classes are champion, blackguard, archer or sage. The knight is a tank or dps viable class. The lancer a pure tank. Mystic a solid support class all around and the priest a pure healer.
All classes will have abilities that allow them to solo effectively. Obviously some better than others, but how I am giving classes abilities allows me to control balance more effectively rather than a bunch of classes having overlapping abilities, and certain stuff not stacking with each other. This is something I want to eliminate. People not having to worry if something is actually broken or not or if one classes buffs stack with another.
I have a feeling people will enjoy how I have set up each of these classes. No broken or useless classes. Each unique ability as useful as the next. All classes have anywhere between 10 and 14 unique abilities with approx. 4-7 tiers of that ability.
carpediembr
03-11-2013, 12:50 AM
Any news? I`d love to test if u need anyone
Mariomario
03-12-2013, 08:35 AM
Currently 7/8 basic classes are done. After that its content development. Once im satisfied there, Ill have people join in to continue to help me balance once that's done. As I create a class I test its abilities to make sure they work as I want and to ensure they are pretty balanced in numbers to each other, i.e A sage isnt dealing 600 dmg at level 1 while a lancer is only doing 10 damage.
Im aiming for sometime in May for beta testing, while it may be beta I want to make it as polished as possible.
Drajor
03-12-2013, 09:21 AM
begins chanting .. WRATH .. WRATH! :)
zalemander14
03-12-2013, 11:18 PM
Cant wait to play your server!
Cezark
03-24-2013, 11:50 AM
I started on ED about 3 months before it went down and loved playing on it. This server sounds fun and I can't wait to start playing on it!
Mariomario
03-24-2013, 05:13 PM
Well Im getting closer to being able to release a beta version. All 8 classes are functioning the way I like and the initial prologue zone is completed. The hub zone is coming together very well, as well as the first combat zone. Im working on some of the tradeskills as well. At the moment there are only 4 tradeskills, blacksmithing, tailoring, brewing and jewelcrafting. Blacksmithing will cover lancer, knight, champion and blackguard armor and weapons, tailoring will cover archer, mystic, sage and priest armor and weapons. Brewing will involve collecting items to combine in vials for potions, and jewelcrafting will involve crafting gems together to create a wide variety of upgradeable augments.
Currently there are 2 versions of bosses, general bosses which are stronger versions of the general races within the zone and world bosses which will require a group and real strategy to overcome, but dont worry the rewards are worth it. I have approximately 6 tasks put together out of around 25-30 total I want at the release.
My goal is to have a very polished version at the beginning of May to release for everyone to try out.
Mariomario
03-28-2013, 08:50 PM
Along with the development of the server I have been trying to get the website together as well. It contains some information and is available at www.enlighteneddark.weebly.com
I check it daily in case more people are learning about it. The website is also under the server information link on the server list. The forums are completely functional, you can post there with any questions or insight on the server.
Maze_EQ
03-28-2013, 09:23 PM
So.............Tera, but in EQ?
Mariomario
03-28-2013, 09:25 PM
There are quite a few concepts coming from there yes.
Maze_EQ
03-28-2013, 09:31 PM
There are quite a few concepts coming from there yes.
Well I fucking love Tera.
Looking forward to this.
Mariomario
04-16-2013, 08:25 PM
The website has been updated with new information and goals as I near the proposed release date for beta. I hope there are plenty out there who are just as excited about this as I am. Even with these last 2 weeks in school being hell I am trying my best to get content done and to an acceptable quality of testing. I can't wait to release the server for everyone to play!
Sage2k
04-17-2013, 09:32 PM
Looks fun. Can't wait to try
Mariomario
04-23-2013, 01:12 PM
This weekend I will be opening the server for public play. There is still quite a bit of work to do, but it is all mostly touching things up and getting the first instanced dungeon ready. I have a solid bases on the direction I want the server to go, now I just need players to help test and ensure everything is balanced correctly.
There will be plenty of content in killing and doing tasks, gearing up, crafting, upgrading gear available for the weekend. The duration of beta has yet to be determined, I may extend it longer than the weekend depending on how things go.
satora54
04-23-2013, 04:26 PM
That's awesome! Are all the paths currently in?
Mariomario
04-23-2013, 05:26 PM
Aye, you can choose from any of the 8 classes as soon as you zone in. Since I completely revamped the classes down to the source pick the race you like best and then zone in. Upon zone in you'll be greeted by 8 masters of each class where you can pick the job path you want to pursue.
Will the server be only available for the weekend?
Mariomario
04-23-2013, 07:11 PM
The duration of beta has yet to be determined, I may extend it longer than the weekend depending on how things go.
Thrash!
04-24-2013, 08:45 AM
Now whether to try Champion Or Archer first! haha
Sage2k
04-26-2013, 06:48 AM
Dang, i will be out of town this weekend :(
satora54
04-26-2013, 10:12 PM
Damn, can't get on the forums at your website. :confused:
Mariomario
04-26-2013, 11:01 PM
Unfortunately they are finicky at times. I will be purchasing my own domain after a bit and finding a better alternative for my choice on forums.
satora54
04-27-2013, 12:04 AM
Waiting :D
zalemander14
04-27-2013, 02:29 AM
Cant seem to log into the server. Freeze when i attempt to log into the world after character select
Mariomario
04-27-2013, 02:30 AM
Working at resolving this...ran into more problems than I expected tonight unfortunately =/
zalemander14
04-27-2013, 02:35 AM
Best of luck figuring the bugs out! Ill be around later to attempt again.
Jahar_LoA
04-27-2013, 08:56 AM
What's the news there Wrath, how are things?
satora54
04-27-2013, 09:32 AM
He delayed it until next weekend.
carpediembr
05-27-2013, 12:35 AM
any news about the server?
jojo22
05-27-2013, 06:26 AM
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time
Mariomario
05-27-2013, 09:59 AM
Ha that was actually entertaining to read. Sad, but true as it is. Hardly anything is ever released 'on time' or when they say it will be release. Problems do arise that cant be accounted for.
I do keep all my updates posted on my website. The 3 or 4 days of beta at the beginning of this month was a success and I plan on doing another beta testing in the near future. Ive got the main groundwork laid out, just now its implementing the ideas, creating tasks, items, spells, effects, and everything else since this server is 100% custom. I have content available that allows people to level to approximately level 25 depending on how much time you put in.
I would like to get the next 2 zones done before I open up for another beta session, but well see how things turn out. Im not giving myself any deadlines really, other than the fact that I am still putting in time to the server.
Mariomario
05-28-2013, 02:44 AM
Beta Phase II will be running within about 30 minutes. I will be running this testing period from now until Friday June 7th. Features for this testing include:
20 Completed Tasks with experience, item and monetary rewards
2 Combat and 2 Non Combat Zones
- Revamped Bazaar for easy trading, buying and selling
- Temple of Marr - City Zone
- 100% Elddar Forest
- 100% Chambers of Xill
1920 Custom Items
525 Custom Spells
8 Novice Classes each with unique abilities
4 Tradeskills
-Smithing
-Tailoring
-Brewing
-Jewelcrafting
All new way to customize your weapon and armor with 'tinkered effects' found by combining materials together to create a desired effect. Currently there are 72 tinkered effects available to create. These effects are unique in that once combined with the armor or weapon, it can never be removed. This allows for people to create multiple sets of armor based on how they want to play their already specialized class.
Item upgrade system allows you to enhance your gear. Some gear may appear weaker than other items more easily obtained, but once enhanced your gear will make you that much more powerful while your friends are still getting crushed by enemies.
Everything currently has the ability to be traded, aside from a few quest items and tinkered effects. The current level cap is 50 before ascension and level 85 after, although there is only enough content to support you until probably level 25, but believe me when I say there is enough for you to do in the time frame available. I will never wipe characters unless a serious exploit is used and irreversible, so the time spent here will always remain, even once the server goes live completely.
More information may be found available on the website, which is located under the server list. After the server goes completely live I plan on purchasing my own hosting. Thank you for those in support of this server.
Drakiyth
05-28-2013, 07:54 PM
Looking good man. I might stop by and check it out after I re-release Varlyndria. Good to see some innovation floating around, it's a nice change.
Mariomario
05-28-2013, 08:07 PM
Thanks very much Drak. I wish I had more time to devote, but alas plenty of RL stuff going on.
carpediembr
06-03-2013, 10:03 PM
Really nice.. loved it..
but its down now =/
draks
07-26-2013, 10:36 AM
really looking forward to playing on this server
Mariomario
07-26-2013, 11:14 AM
Development is still in the works. It has slowed a little but I am still working on it. I just recently got done reformatting the upgrade system to really work how I want. Ive also been constructing formulas for balanced scaling with item stats, how they are allocated and also how stats scale with upgraded items. Ive also been planning on how far I want the 1st job vlasses to go before the 2nd job classes and then the ascended classes. Yes I have expanded my ideas even farther thanks to some insight from Maze. I have some RL stuff going on, but just know this server concept is most definitely not dead.
Jahar_LoA
08-27-2013, 04:41 PM
Status on this project there Wrath?
Mariomario
08-27-2013, 04:53 PM
The website has been updated with quite a bit of information. At the moment development has slowed since I acquired a new job in my career field instead of just small time minimum wage bs. My daughter was also just recently born which has also taken quite a bit of time, but the project still presses onward.
Currently there are 14 gear sets up to Tier 6, pushing well over 3k items, 1200 spells, plenty of tasks, 3 completed combat zones. My goal upon release is to have gear up to tier 12 spread through 6 open zones and 3 instances along with the beginning of the ascension quest. Development will be back in full swing in no time, but check out the website for information on the basic mechanics and full class information/abilities in the mean time!
Maze_EQ
08-29-2013, 01:54 PM
My god, when will this release >.<
Anxious as fuck to play again.
Mariomario
08-29-2013, 02:10 PM
I do apologize on delays, but Im a perfectionist in many aspects and I don't want things being released half assed. With all the RL stuff going on right now its hard to put in serious development time and when I do get some time to finally develop it usually gets interrupted by something else. I pay attention to almost every detail possible really, as well as attempt to test as many aspects myself before content is put into production. While bugs are going to happen, I like to minimize how many are actually found.
Maze_EQ
09-06-2013, 04:29 PM
Noticed it was unlocked.
couldn't log in
Ultimate troll
Mariomario
09-12-2013, 08:48 AM
This weekend I will be running a third beta session. Starting tomorrow morning at 6AM EST until Sunday night 11:59 PM. A more detailed explanation of this beta is included on the forums of my website. Please see the link in my signature. I hope to see you all out there and look forward to hearing about your feedback.
zalemander14
09-12-2013, 11:55 AM
I demand you open it right meow!
Mariomario
09-14-2013, 11:41 PM
Server is up and running. Already a few players testing the waters. Server will be available until Friday September 20th. No character wipes will happen so everything you gain will stay intact upon official release. There is a special starter pack available for this beta session including some potions and a limited time 200% speed white lion mount. Thanks for helping test out Enlightened Dark: Ascension.
Maze_EQ
09-18-2013, 07:23 AM
Best server evar.
carpediembr
09-22-2013, 11:02 AM
Annd is gone =/
Maze_EQ
09-23-2013, 04:32 AM
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq69/Maze_EQ/image.png (http://s434.photobucket.com/user/Maze_EQ/media/image.png.html)
Thanks Wrath.
a week of my life gone.....
Mariomario
01-06-2014, 03:19 AM
I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but I am going to try and get everything I want into the server by February 19th as this is the 1 year anniversary that I produced the idea for Enlightened Dark: Ascension. I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas and a fun, safe New Year. A lot has happened over the last year with real life including the birth of my first daughter, who is now 18 weeks old, as well as me starting a new job in an actual career. I have been putting little bits of time here and there into the server, producing new ideas, implementing tons of changes, both on the surface and behind the scenes in the source code, as well as creating new development tools to help me produce content into the server at a much faster rate. No matter how many tools I have to help me develop, time is always a factor and unfortunately right now my time is very limited. At the moment there are over 5,000 custom items in the database, 800+ spells, 200+ tasks, 500+ tradeskill recipes, most of which I designed by hand.
From approximately September to December I had a long (both needed and unwanted) break with my daughter being born and the holidays and very, very little, if anything at all, was touched on the server. Things have started back up over the past couple weeks, and I am having a blast producing content and ideas that I hope everyone will enjoy making a return to. Unfortunately I have done the final character wipe as needed with the last tweeks submitted with the help of the last beta testing. The next release will be official and the ascended classes will be available for play as well as a new level cap of 55. I am very anxious to get this project completely off the ground, but once it's in the air I would like to see it remain there and sore higher and higher, rather than crash like a lot of completely custom servers. Be on the look out for Enlightened Dark: Ascension on the server lists within the next 6-8 weeks.
carpediembr
01-24-2014, 06:43 PM
I 500+ tradeskill recipes
I hope they are better than droppable loot.... I always wanted to see tradeskill being superior to bash thing..
my daughter being born
Congratulations
carpediembr
02-07-2014, 02:08 PM
Wrath any chance you could open up for some beta testing? Really love your servers
ajstyles65
02-10-2014, 09:57 AM
Is the server owner still alive D:
I have checked this thread every day and no update nor posts from him even checked his forums still nothing i understand being busy n all i am just curious and very much interested in trying this out hope to see an update or the server being up sometime.
Mariomario
02-10-2014, 11:29 AM
The server is still in the works and nearing release completion. Once released it will continue to stay up while I work on more content. Since this is completely custom and far from live EQ, I want there to be plenty of content upon initial release so people aren't bored after a week or two. Things are continuing to come together very well. I have a couple closed beta testers who are continuing to ensure balance is preserved. You should expect to see an economy (I hope) as there are tons of uses for platinum as well as plenty of things to trade. There are some heavy modifications to the source now as well, so the classes are even more custom at the root. People should enjoy any of the 8 novice classes available and feel a true difference from their character to the next. Things will definitely spread out as the ascended classes and extended classes are introduced. As always the server will be a continued work in progress.
Thorkinal
02-11-2014, 02:45 AM
Hope it's back soon, completely bored with eqemu lately :/
Mariomario
02-12-2014, 10:53 AM
Im looking for two maybe three more people to help do some closed beta testing. Please make a post on my websites forums if you wish to apply. Things are looking good for me to have a release hopefully within the next week or two. Looking to get some more feed back on the current setup. Please only apply if you are willing to do some true testing and provide me with reasonable feed back. Do not apply if you just simply want early access. You will be granted privileges to access the server while it is locked, but please be advised it could go down and be down without warning as I continue to make changes and get things ready for release.
Maze_EQ
02-13-2014, 12:30 PM
Broooooooo.
Pick me, I'll cuddle with you after testing.
ajstyles65
02-13-2014, 12:42 PM
-Teasers- Permission given by Mario-
-Choosing a Class- -Must hail the Class NPC and choose that as your class if you dc don't worry that is normal -
http://imgur.com/k7YErdX -Priest-
http://imgur.com/k7YErdX -Lancer-
http://imgur.com/T0943v7 -Knight-
http://imgur.com/PXFb8EU -Champion-
http://imgur.com/mNN4WoM -Sage My favorite-
http://imgur.com/tT4oeXj -Blackguard-
http://imgur.com/pQlqm9I -Archer-
http://imgur.com/r5d1WeP -Mystic-
-Sage Pet- There are different looks on each for example my first one was a cool looking fire one and this one is my new one.
http://imgur.com/savjsLY -Cute ain't he?-
-One of many elite creatures you will find in the forest-
http://imgur.com/hg5phXI -Spirit of the claw-
http://imgur.com/WTKeAfz -World Boss-
http://imgur.com/8NNf5ex -Beginner's power source upgradeable-
-Sage Spells- -I am only lvl 6 so i have not yet seen the best ones but playing a sage is alot of fun-
http://imgur.com/X5JnWrc -Fireblast pretty good nuke and casting time is almost instant-
http://imgur.com/Wxyk6FL -Hailstorm 1 is a pretty good spell that has 3 waves of nice dmg-
http://imgur.com/KSphpQ6 - Timestop 1 is like a root spell that lasts 30seconds and damages them over time -
http://imgur.com/VKt4w25 -Child of elements pet spell-
http://imgur.com/izQQIZo -Runic Barrier-
-Random NPC's you will encounter when you first play-
http://imgur.com/li1qI3h
http://imgur.com/INtIxwF
http://imgur.com/aXCxmtS
http://imgur.com/8qlItzJ
http://imgur.com/K2DbzdD
http://imgur.com/bNcvxFr
http://imgur.com/l4YQgRw
http://imgur.com/yhyuKFO
http://imgur.com/YNRDQhA
http://imgur.com/luZvOJR
http://imgur.com/rLsNaF3
http://imgur.com/AH6WZpb
http://imgur.com/GLpGorc
http://imgur.com/mYO8XZS
http://imgur.com/KQghWzQ
http://imgur.com/H7Q7WwT
http://imgur.com/flX86G9
http://imgur.com/PmY4JVk
http://imgur.com/bHmp0mK
http://imgur.com/1a5J7c3
http://imgur.com/W1aY9ET
http://imgur.com/yb6pyAX
That is all i captured using fraps if all goes well i will have a short youtube video up soon on sage gameplay ;)
ajstyles65
02-13-2014, 02:31 PM
-Video- 3mins song name : fireburning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbx3y-a_uto&feature=youtu.be
Just a heads up im no expert at making videos and i know it wasn't the best video i was just showing what sages can do towards the end of the video i was fighting a red that was 7 lvls higher then me and using the fireblast hailstorm / timestop combo works well when fighting higher lvl stuff but if not been for time stop that red could have killed me in about 4 hits lol
NatedogEZ
02-13-2014, 03:46 PM
This was a great server.. hopefully it goes live soon :)
ajstyles65
02-13-2014, 04:08 PM
Although i am not high lvl i must admit it is one of the most funnest times i have had in eq in a long time lol when exploring the forest you encounter so many elite nameds and on my sage i am not even strong enough to begin thinking of attacking them or the world boss that is why i can't wait till it goes live so i can see ppl grouping for this stuff :)
ajstyles65
02-16-2014, 04:24 PM
Looking forward to server launch with that being said when it does launch for you new players i will be helping in game so feel free to pm me
Am saving all upgradeable gear that i will not be using as well as cloth or ore i don't need to get some of you a head start however i will be very limited stockwise because i can only cram so much stuff in my bank.
Edit: Character name is Xephsage
Mariomario
02-22-2014, 08:58 AM
Enlightened Dark: Ascension will be opening Saturday March 1st at Midnight.
Maze_EQ
02-23-2014, 12:55 PM
So you're telling me I don't get to sleep?
Thanks.
Mariomario
02-23-2014, 02:02 PM
So you're telling me I don't get to sleep?
Thanks.
No one is forcing you to play the server =P
But thanks for the indirect comment saying my server is that addictive. ^^
Midnight in which timezone?
Mariomario
02-23-2014, 05:32 PM
My apologies, I am currently in EST.
Secrets
02-26-2014, 09:52 PM
Just wanted to say that this is the first custom server I can genuinely say that it feels like a new game made in the EQ Engine, and that you should probably try it out.
The gameplay resembles EQ, sure, but the skills, spells, and systems are what make this server unique. I have never seen so much detail go into revamping the entire gameplay experience before. You won't be disappointed.
boweq
02-27-2014, 07:42 AM
Mario is a actual Dev/GM that will change things based on what the server feels about something,
something that is important is super rare, hell look into it and see why,
a group mob is pwning 2groups, he will see why,
ED 1.0, was by far one of the best servers on the emu,
Im currently residing on live,
so Best of luck to the server, but who knows i could hop on and get addicted like 1.0
Mariomario
02-27-2014, 07:36 PM
Just wanted to say that this is the first custom server I can genuinely say that it feels like a new game made in the EQ Engine, and that you should probably try it out.
The gameplay resembles EQ, sure, but the skills, spells, and systems are what make this server unique. I have never seen so much detail go into revamping the entire gameplay experience before. You won't be disappointed.
Thanks very much Secrets.
After a year of developing this off and on due to RL, Im personally sick of waiting. I know its approximately 25 hours 45 minutes early, but I am opening the server now. Not much is going to be done between today and tomorrow and I feel like there is plenty of content for players to do while I continue to build the server from here on out. It can't stay locked forever!
Please feel free to log in and enjoy the countless hours I have spent on this project.
carpediembr
03-05-2014, 05:35 PM
ED 1.0, was by far one of the best servers on the emu,
Have to agree 100% with that. Even to I found it a tad too easy at the beggining... it was amazingly addictive
Jaybruce32
04-05-2014, 02:48 AM
Is Enlightened Dark any relation to the old Tarew Marr guild?
Mariomario
04-06-2014, 10:47 AM
I was once a part of Enlightened Dark many, many years ago. My best memories are from that guild, raiding PoP, GoD and OoW before I left live altogether.
So I created my original server based on that name, reliving the memories from those days. I kept the name since that's the server everyone came to know me about. Ascension was tagged on the second server simply because the original one had a HDD crash and was lost.
There are no original Enlightened Dark members here, as my ties with them were lost some time after leaving live, which was sometime around 2005.
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