EQ Worldbuilder Team (long)

[Gino]

Greetings

With all the progression made by the Coders lately, it seems to me, that it is time to start building up the world of Norrath.

I saw on the boards and in chat, that the Coder`s expressed multiple times, that they wish to stay as close to the original EQ as possible, just with a few needed tweaks here and there.

And that

[Drawde]

I'm already about 90% complete doing spawns and loot tables (except loot tables for unique NPCs) for the original 3 continents and Kunark. When I've finished and debugged them hopefully they will be included in the standard DB or at least made available as a seperate alternate DB.
I also plan to do merchant lists once the code for merchants is included in the code.
However Velious/Luclin spawns and loot tables, quests, zone points, unique NPCs etc still need doing, and it would be great if someone could work on those.
Like you I'd really like to see the emulator become a fully playable game, not just a zone explorer and PVP duelling game, that's why I decided to work on doing the spawn/loot data.
I'd be happy to contribute my data to your team when it's finished. However currently I'm still adding a few missing loot tables, setting the correct Z values for some zones, and getting rid of bugs.

[Drawde]

Another thing I hope you agree with, I've set up the spawn tables so that "rare" items drop far more often (e.g 1 out of 5 times, rather than 1 out of 50), also "rare spawns" are always there. I really didn't think that if you were playing EQ offline or with a few friends on a LAN you would want to camp for 10 hours to get the item you wanted!

[Gino]

Hi Drawde

Thanks for the responce.
I guess i need to make clear, that im no way special when it commes to the eqemu and i dont have a team of any sort.

I was just tossing out an idea that`s it.

About your DB

I recently D loaded a few of those huge BD`s that floated around on the old Boards. Most of them were converted show eq files (at least when it came to locs and such).

I havent found even 1 DB so far that looked halvway complete to me. (sorry no offence)

Sure there were mobs all over the place, some hanging in the air others just didnt look the way they should, and one of the nice Freeport guards was so gentle to drop non the less than 6 pieces of Crafted Armor (War quest).
This would be ok for a casual server, but is far below the standard, the one EMU DB should come along with.

I really cant comment on your DB, but i can tell you that populating halv Thurgadin A, in the standard this should be done, took me without loottables 2 Days now.

But every NPC now stands at the right x,y,z, faces the right direction, has the proper appearance and so on.

I am aiming very high standard and i guess it would take 1 person about 1 week just to populate 1 medicore size zone.

Please dont take offence from my words.

Regards
Gino

[Bunga]

Gino, I would love to help in any way I can, but I dont have showeq or sins, heh, I can't even log into EQ from here. But if you know of a way in which I can help, please tell me how. Abou the only thing other than this that I can help with, is to stresstest the boards (ie leech info) :D, so I really want to make a difference.

[Drawde]

About the NPCs in the air or in the wrong place etc, this is one of the things I'm fixing at the moment, it's due to the height values being wrong. Freeport now has the Z values properly set.
Zones with several "levels" like some dungeons (e.g Runnyeye Citadel) still have a lot of problems, I'll probably have to manually set the Z values for some of these eventually.
Another problem was with "clones" of many NPCs like guards all over the place, which I've now fixed.

The NPC data I got from a text file on the website http://giftsplace.com/eqn1/ and according to the site was obtained with ShowEQ.
I have extensively modified the data since then though
I did the loot tables myself, mainly using http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com for reference.

The version you saw was probably a very old one, maybe the first release. It was incredibly buggy, incomplete and unpolished, and I said so when I posted it, it was simply for people to try out and have fun with.
There are countless things fixed then, though my data is still far from being anything like a perfect copy of the real EQ! It is still very unpolished but much, much better than what you saw.

Regarding NPCs/mobs not looking right, NPCs/guards do not equip items at the minute, and all have the same faces, so all NPCs of the same race look identical regardless of class.
The version you saw also had loads of bugs with monsters using the wrong models, etc. most of which are now fixed. For example Freeport guards did not use the proper model and appeared as generic humans.
My data also has the proper textures for monsters like fire/ice goblins, giants/cyclops etc. However size is not implemented in the emulator ATM so the sizes are wrong for some things like giants.

As for loot, non-monster NPCs (including guards) have equipment appropriate to a player of their level. This gives a more "realistic" feel I think. It's intended to be equipment, rather than "loot" but as I said the emulator does not support NPCs equipping items yet.
As I said in another post, most NPCs have hit points many times that of a player of equivalent level so if you can kill one without cheating then you'll already have equivalent or better equipment.

I don't take offence from your reply, I understand how you feel, but I'd personally rather have a fully populated but very "rough" world and work on polishing and improving it, than spend a week on each zone. That's just my personal opinion though.
Besides I don't play EQ anymore so wouldnt' be able to verify any of my data.

I'm not trying to claim my work is perfect or anything, I'm just explaining why some of the things in it are like they are and also that the version you saw is very out of date.

Maybe I'll have to release my data as a seperate project, though. I'm still happy with it so far and many other people have said positive things about it.

[Slide]

Just going offtopic a little, this website (http://pub33.ezboard.com/f1stfistoflightfrm47) has a ton of information regarding factions and game lore.

[TheClaus]

I am willing to help out anyway I can. I will get showeq or sins loaded up and start going through the zones but have only a lvl 36 rogue so I won't be too much help but will go to everyzone and sit at the zoneline to gather the data. As for Drawde data I agree with him on pushing out the rough world and then going in an polishing it. I am personally doing that right now with the spawns in cities. As soon as I am done with cities i'll move out to the other zones and then dungeons. I like the idea of trying to make a real eq server but it should be better than eq in the fact of mobs dropping stuff for the level of the mob and rare being rare but not stay up all frickin night for AC rare.

*changed live to like

[n00b8472]

Sounds like a great idea. Doing a full server, populating multiple zones with NPCs and quests really isn't feasible single. I welcome this opportunity and would gladly help in any way I can. I'm starting to get the hang of the admin tool (created a few of those nifty missing armor pieces from Velious, effects and all).

[Pyrotek]

This sounds like a good idea. Due to the IP issues I think direct devteam involvement would be a conflict of interest.

What do you think? :)

[Gino]

Quote "Due to the IP issues " sorry i dont get what you mean.:confused:

[TheClaus]

Gino I think what Pyro is trying to say is that IP or Intellectual Property would not be a good thing for the dev team to get into. If we were to develop a DB that they had no involvement from the dev team Verant would be less likely to try an harm the emu.

[Gino]

Ehm ok lets see if i got that right ?

The Term *Lifeteam* or whatever you want to call it would surely not involve any VI employees or ex employees. (sp?)

Maybe Pyro was just trying to make a joke, maybe my post was unclear. Im not sure what i shall think atm.

Sorry for the confusion, but like i said previously, i got limited english skills.

Regards
Gino

[Zeitgeist]

right pyro is saying the dev team will NOT be involved, but you can do what you wish as far as customization. if only non emu-devs work on it, verant is less likely to have spasms about it... or at least their spasms will not include attacks on the dev team =)

[TheClaus]

Well I doubt Verant would have spasmisms about a db being made. After all it is just a database for npcs, loot, quests, an spawns. Every website I know that has this information has it in a db format of some sort. So I say lets get started.

[Gino]

Well maybe it would be the best if Pyro could explain this himself. *if he wishes to do so*

I fail to see why Verant should have more problems with the people who build up a database, than with the coders who try to get a server working, the best way possible.

And yes i would like to see some of the Dev Team involved in this, because the team that will build the world, will be heavily dependant on them. So some sort of commuication will be needed.
(maybe not actively involved, but more in a weekly meeting, to share informations and recieve feedback or requests)

Im taking this very serious, and i know it can be done but only if all that are involved are willing to do the best they can, and only if we forget about politics and stay on one side.

However i am to tired atm to write more im sorry.
Will post more tomorrow.

Good Night
Gino

PS : Thanks for the Feedback so far.

[Pyrotek]

I was just posting my thoughts on the subject. We had discussed this in the dev irc room the other day and agreed to release blank spawn tables with the source. Nothing is set in stone, we'll see what the future brings.

[Zeitgeist]

see the problem is when the db is released WITH the emu then emu team can be accosted by Verant for using their Intellectual property. Zones are fine because the zones aren't downloaded with the emu, they are part of the eq cd that you (presumably) bought. To avoid legal hassle the devs are staying away from content as much as possible. Hopefully drawde will reconsider his non-release of spawn db pending Login Server release.

cheers,

Z-.


Well I doubt Verant would have spasmisms about a db being made. After all it is just a database for npcs, loot, quests, an spawns. Every website I know that has this information has it in a db format of some sort. So I say lets get started.

[Zeitgeist]

of course this may raise questions about itemdb too... *shrug*

[TheClaus]

I should of been a bit more clearer about it. What I meant to say was that if the db is seperate from the emu then verant wouldn't have a cow(man that is old) about some folks making a DB of items, spawns, loot, etc... Who cares if it works for the emu too.

[Trumpcard]

Thats right, once you start to identically copy their items and NPCS, you get into the fuzzy area of Intellectual Property (it would not be hard to prove that the Vellium Crafted War Spear you have in your database was in fact created/designed by Verant/SOE)

Creating an item database is a great idea, and I think the team idea is excellent, but I think to keep the dev team free of any issues, it should be done seperately, without the consesus of the dev team. Sure it would be nice if a full Verant item/spawn database could be shipped with the emulator, but its very dangerous from a legal perspective.

The best bet would be for the *Life* team to request a link be put up on the eqemu page that linked to the database location outside of the emu project. There could even be a database repository for different databases, allowing you to load your world based on your fantasy flavor (wouldnt it be neat to see gameworlds based on DragonLance or Forgotten Realms)
Of course, once again you get into IP concerns, but alot of companys would probably be excited to see their stuff in an online game world (especially with TSR's new online philosophy)

[Minuss]

How can i help you ?
What programs i've to use and what files i've to modify ?
tell me what ive to do and i'll do it as fast as i can :)
I would like to create copy of original game but we can change some things like rare mobs spawns dragons spawn time etc...
i think we should make a post where all people can say what they like to change in the game...
after we should shake all of the infos to do something very good i think !

[Zeitgeist]

please note the post by WC of a similar nature under :

http://forums.eqemu.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=412#post412

[madborg]

Having entries in a database that allows another piece of software to manipulate those entries, without modifying the content, would not normally be seen as a form of IP violation.
Changing hps on a model is not modifying the model, because it doesn't not permanently alter the model.

I have also argued that the characters that a user creates are as much IP content as the original base models--maybe even more. I would even argue that to ban a person and not allow them access to their content is a form of piracy. I would love to see this go to court.

Now you may think that my argument is silly, but since SoL the EQ EULA has been modified to include a section that assigns rights back to EQ for any content that you create on their servers.
Did anyone wonder what that was about?

Here is the section:

11. As part of your Account, you can upload content to our servers in various forms, such as in the selections you make for the Game and in chat rooms and similar user-to-user areas...

and then goes on....

You hereby grant to us a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicenseable.. right to exercise all intellectual property rights, in any media now know or not currently known, associated with your Content.

Think about that for a while. What the heck could a user possible create that could justify such a comprehensive agreement?
And this is the reason why EULA is weak. When you have such sweeping statements and you have no recourse, then you have no meeting of the mind.

But also look at what it does for my "piracy" argument-- potentially throws it out the window.

Yes my piracy statement is a matter of public record and is searchable.

[Windcatcher]

I'm not sure how we got to this, but it's interesting. Could they be anticipating being sued by a player who wants to port his/her character over to a non-SOE server?

WC

[Windcatcher]

A couple of sinister ideas occurred to me just now, so here's my final thought for the night:

1. Let's say that someone has a character on the live EQ servers. That person quits EQ, and later on creates the same character on a public EQ server (non-SOE). Could VI use this to force the 3rd-party server operator to purge all characters that once existed on SOE servers?

2. Let's say that someone creates some kind of artistic content that predates the game (story, play, artwork, whatever) but doesn't pubish it or otherwise get it copyrighted (maybe it's unfinished, maybe the person needs more confidence, whatever). Then that person creates a character using a name from the original work on an SOE server. Later on, the person completes/publishes/copyrights the artistic work. Would SOE be able to steal ownership or profits from said work by asserting that the person ceded ownership of the name to them, and charge copyright infringement? I only bring it up because the clause you mention is SO draconian that any hellspawn that would come up with it in the first place just may try to actually invoke it.

WC

[Zeitgeist]

interesting and frightening WC =)

[Shawn319]

(example??)

Like if i made a character called Microsoft 30 years ago verant could take MS to court and take over microsoft? sounds scary lol.

[Zio]

I was wondering if anyone still has the old item db that had the primals and epics and the armor that was a bit updated. No one seems to have it anymore. If you do pelase upload it or post a place were to get, thanks!


- Zio Ka Neo -

[uzzon]

Well, I personally would like to see a DB as close as possible to Verant Servers too.
Thats the base. You can change whatever you want later on.
It seems better to have a finished solid DB where we know stuff is balanced quite well and works. Verant has put a lot of time into thinking out the balance issues with every single item and spawn.

After we have that DB we can create alternate DBs. Its not that we would be stuck with this version forever.
We can change whatever we like.

But it'll be less chaotic if you make your changes on a DB version that has proven to be well playable on the Verant servers.

If several people start to tweak here and there while building their zones and then the whole thing is put together, I am sure no one really gets what he was looking for.

Everyone wants to do different things on their servers. Its better to get a DB you are familiar with from the live servers. That is something everyone accepts because he has lived there for a few years eventually on the VI servers. Its like "home" somehow lol

And he exactly knows what he wants to change. But if its a super tweaked DB, he'll get surprises on every corner.

I have one of Drawdes DBs installed too and I admire him for the great work he did, but I for example would'nt want a lvl 14 Dark Elf in West Freeport (Hollish Tnoops) to drop a full set of Crafted on my server. (Actually more than one set cause the one I killed had 3 BPs and 2x boots) :D

See what I mean? You want to change things yourself. Not everyone likes the same tweaks.

Since this is a project we all want to participate in it would be best to create this good old VI DB that everyone knows well and from there people can start tweaking on their own servers.

ok, enough... just my opinion but I think I am right with a few things here.


btw, it would be great if there would be a short manual for EQadmin. Until now I couldnt figure out how I can add an item to the DB for example. I hit "Add record" and get a new record but what do I do then? I am sure all of the item data is in the db blob, but how can I access this blob??

Explaining the DB basics would help a few people that want to help with world creation I think.
I also noticed that the EQemu Admin tool is a bit slow. I use mysqlfront for data editing usually and in that frontend the data is displayed a lot quicker.
No offense Windcatcher, the tool is great work and all the interface options are a must have, so I could'nt do anything without EQemu Admin anyway. Just a little slow on my 2nd machine.


Uzzon

[ibleet]

I'm with you all. Count me in on helping. With Drawde being the farthest advanced with the db so far, it may be a good idea for him to delegate the tasks. I would be more than happy to either populate zones correctly, or to fix problems in currently populated zones. Let me know please. I agree with the others, the dev team has enough to deal with right now (lag, patches, etc.). We have more than enough help to accomplish this task.

[TheClaus]

You guys want Real EQ but want to use Drawde's data for it. That doesn't seem right. Have you looked at it. Don't get me wrong for a rough world it is great but for an actual EQ server that would look like the Live versions you would need to get current data. Also you need some sort of numbering scheme so no one is stepping on peoples toes. Check this out. It is an idea that Gino and I came up with. It is working well. We don't step on anyones toes and everything is nice and neat.

https://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=9548&group_id=46446

So far I have Erudin City done. Working on the Palace by going through and making them. Have spawnlogs for Qeynos (north and south), Surefall Glades and Halas. Get the cities done first since that is the most static and then dungeons and finally outdoor areas.

If you want to use drawde's data that is cool but it is based off of a old ShowEQ log and is not accurate.

[Ariak]

Who cares? Drawde's DB is AWESOME. I am sure that we could build a more-modern DB, but with the upcoming expansion, what's the point?

If we focus on fixxing the small amount of oddities in Kunark/Orig. EQ, we'll NEVER finish SOL, NEVER finish SOV, and never start the new one.

The only HUGE drawback about Drawde's Emu is Fear/Hate aren't modern. No Dread/Terror/Fright - CT/Draco are 55 and 32k health, but that is an easy fix!

[Drawde]

Dread, Terror and Fright are in my DB, but maybe their Z coordinates are wrong so they're stuck in the ground somewhere. I'll have to check.
What HP and level are Cazic-Thule and the Dracoliche supposed to have now?

Referring to an earlier post about a level-14 NPC dropping a full set of crafted armour, this sort of thing was due to a very serious bug in my EQNPC parser program which gave all NPCs, regardless of level, items appropriate to a level 50+ one. I've fixed this now and I think that the 0.7 data has more appropriate items. (although they still drop far too many items; this will be fixed in the next version)

[Gino]

Im sorry Ariak but i strongly disagree with you on this.

Face it. Creating a VI like world, cant be done accurate by one or a few parttime EMU junkies (TM) like us.

We are talking here of around 160 Zones at the end that need population hunderds and thousend of DB entries.

Drawde was smart enough to find a way to convert the old SEQ logs floating around on the web. Kudos to this one, im really impressed.

But like you said if we want to get SoV, SoL and later maybe PoP done the community will have to work on it as a team.

Teams need Guidelines to not collidate with other peoples work, and i think we found an ok approach to do this.

[Gino]

Speaking of SoV zones.

It took me approx 2 Weeks gathering info and creating DB entries to get Thurgadina to work.
Mind you this is mainly a non fight zone. And Quests arent done yet.

But all in all we will have to wait for the Devs to get their work done anyway. I dont know about you but once im done with an NPC i want it to be complete. As it stands we are missing so much features, like head tinting, wielding items, resists, social behaviour and so on and so on, that it is not worth it to me atm to work on it further.
I dont feel like, modifying the same npc over and over, when ever the Devs added another feature. If i created an npc from start to the end i want to be done with it and move to next.

Regards
Gino

[Lyenu X`Arie]

I can get some SEQ logs for zones if people want them... or want to convert them.

[ibleet]

I want those logs for the db I'm creating. ibleet@suscom.net

THANKS

[Ariak]

Following zones I plan to itemize in Velious.

ST
Kael
ToV
WW
PoG
Skyshrine

Following 'uber' mobs will be spawned in empty zones. /cry

Vaniki
Zlandicar
Dain FrostReaver IV
Lodizal

I'm not going to spawn the under utilized zones and or lowbie zones. I, personally, could care less about Velk's lab being spawned. If people want to do hardcore EXPING they can play live. It will be more fun there.

I *need* show EQ logs for TOV (not North, got that covered), Skyshrine, PoG, WW. Thanks Ly :)

[Trumpcard]

Skyshrine is in this file..

http://denial.dyn.dhs.org/eqimages/spawnlog.txt

I'll see if I can get PoG and WW tonight when I get home..

It will be down towards the end of this file. This is a long dump file, basically my active one for several EQ sessions. Keeping multiple runthroughs of the zone is good though, gives you a chance to catch things that might not have been up/spawned on your 1st pass.


If anyone wants any other zones, let me know. Im interested in trying to get The Warrens and Stonebrunt spawned, so I'll probably capture them later as well.

[DeletedUser]

Quests work just fine thank you ;)

[ibleet]

Quests work just fine....What quests?

Also, as I mentioned before...I still play EQ and would gladly collect the info for the db if I had ShowEQ. Someone sent me to a website earlier, but there were no downloads (showEQ software) available there. Where the heck can I download it?

[Drawde]

Trumpcard - do you mind if I add some of the NPCs from that log file to my world data?
There are quite a few NPCs missing in my data that were added after the old ShowEQ data was generated, not to mention zones like Stonebrunt/Warrens and Neriak 3rd Gate that I don't have spawn info for at all.

[Trumpcard]

go to

http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/seq

The tar file of the latest is listed on there, but its better to get it out of cvs if you want the most current version.


Also, just a forewarning before you waste anytime, showeq only runs on linux, and the box has to be between your internet connection and the eq machine. It works best running on a linux firewall/masq box.


Drawde,
Feel free to use it. That file will be updated everytime I log into liveEQ, so check it every few days and see if anything new is in there for you. I posted this link up with you and Ariak in mind, I thought some of this data might be useful. I'll try and be active about hitting zones for the next few weeks so I can get you guys as much data as possible. I might just set up a nighty cronjob to take my active spawnlog file, seperate it into a bunch of zonename.spawn.txt files, then copy them all to a dump directory if I get the time this week. (and compress them for the bandwidth impaired)

[ibleet]

The EqAdmin tool is awesome....thanks Windcatcher. It only becomes inefficient when lots of data is added. The items area doesn't seem to slow down when more items are added, but the spawns area is affected in a huge way. The more items in the spawn area, the slower the program becomes. It becomes very slow and tedious with a somewhat Full database of spawns.

I find EqAdmin very easy to work with and understand. Without any help, I was easily adding items and spawns to the database. This has become a valuable tool and will just continue to grow and improve.

[Trumpcard]

OK, my spawnlog has been updated with the following zones...

The Grey
Katta
Scarlet Desert
Twilight Sea
Fungus Grove
Tox
Paineel
The Warrens
Stonebrunt
Feerot
Burning Woods
Sirens Grotto
Skyfire
The Overthere
Frontier Mountains (I didnt run the 4spawn, so prolly need to manually add in all those guys)
Warsilks Woods
Dalnir's
Field of Bone
Kurns Tower
Lavastorm
Najena

Tried to get PoG again, but had the same problem I did last night with the zone not decoding..

Post requests for any other zones...


Claus, you have a point, i didnt think about that... Im logging on test, alot of these zones are relatively empty of players, so that might be the problem.. Nobody's killing anything...

[TheClaus]

Trump just remember that some zones need something to spawn to get them to decode right. That is how it works.

[Ariak]

..

I need TOV : HoT and West, I have NTOV spawned now.
I need Skyshrine. I need WWastes. I need PoG (I don't think it is possible, though..)

The important SoV zones i'll have spawned soon.