What exactly is the 'final product' going to entail?

[Flecko]

I read that post about "content creation" and I just don't get it. Isn't the point of this everquest server emulator to actually emulate a real LIVE everquest server? I for one would love to bring my characters and my friends offline(just build chars with the same equipment, there are more than 10 of us) so I could play it at a lan. There are tons of us who play that I live near...this way, we could set up a computer to play it at a lan and just have fun without worrying about sharing modems(no broadband here) or disconnects.

I mean, are people really going to use this emulator to set up a bunch of custom servers? I for one would love to build a machine very similar to live servers. I know the emulator has a ways to go before it gets to that state, but what about the database? I used that spawn data zip file and it was neat, but its nothing like a live server(no offense to the author.) I would love to add/edit the database myself, but am not sure of tools available to do so.

As far as legality is concerned, why should Verant care? Did ID software get pissed when people made mods but used the default models and maps? Its not like people are redistributing copyrighted content. Its just being utilized by homebrew databases and scripts. I personally see nothing illegal about trying to emulate a live server. Its just reverse engineering, which has been proven to be legal in court.

Anywho, I'd love to hear comments from anyone who thinks similarly to me, or is interested in it. I would also love to get to work on making a 'realistic' database for the server, zone by zone. Keep me posted, or send me an email(blf141@psu.edu)

Thanks for your time,
Flecko

[flipper]

You're looking for flames, aren't you? :p

[B]
I mean, are people really going to use this emulator to set up a bunch of custom servers? I for one would love to build a machine very similar to live servers. I know the emulator has a ways to go before it gets to that state, but what about the database? I used that spawn data zip file and it was neat, but its nothing like a live server(no offense to the author.) I would love to add/edit the database myself, but am not sure of tools available to do so.


Yes, people really are going to run a bunch of custom servers. That's the way it is right now.

The combat is still primative in eqemu. Keep in mind that this development effort has progressed very far in just the past few months. Combat will evolve, but at this stage mobs only melee (no mob casting), mobs dont path properly, special attacks aren't implemented, etc. These things are being worked on, but the developers have priorities and other things may need to be addressed first. Drawde's item/loot/spawn database is a godsend! We went from manually spawning everything (or using eqemu admin tool) to static spawns in lots of zones with almost proper item drops! Give it time.

There is a database interface for eqemu at the sourceforge download site for eqemu:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=41381
This tool allows you to generate items, spawns, modify account permissions, and much more.

[B]
As far as legality is concerned, why should Verant care? Did ID software get pissed when people made mods but used the default models and maps? Its not like people are redistributing copyrighted content. Its just being utilized by homebrew databases and scripts. I personally see nothing illegal about trying to emulate a live server. Its just reverse engineering, which has been proven to be legal in court.


Duh! Of course VI cares about something like this. Modding Doom WAD files or making custom Quake mods resulted in more Quake/Doom sales. EQ is a subscription service. They made make a lot of their profits via the /month fee. If you perfectly emulate the servers... bye bye subscriptions.

I'm not qualified to discuss legality, so I'll pass on that part...

[B]
Anywho, I'd love to hear comments from anyone who thinks similarly to me, or is interested in it. I would also love to get to work on making a 'realistic' database for the server, zone by zone. Keep me posted, or send me an email(blf141@psu.edu)


These projects are already underway. Keep in mind that progress has been remarkably quick given that folks are doing this on a volutary basis. If you know how to code and have time to kill, then by all means head over to the Dev section of the forum and get to work!

I'll make it easy for you:
http://forums.eqemu.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7

[Flecko]

I assure you, I wasn't looking for flame =P

I know this project is far from complete, but reading through that content creation thread really scared me. I really appreciate what the authors of eqemu are doing. I was just wondering if there are people that want to emulate live servers? My coding skills aren't worthy of such a vast project. I'm a terribly sloppy coder, and take very little pride in my work =P

Actually playing with this emulator made me realize exactly how much is taken care of on the server side. Its a pretty big undertaking( AI and all that.) I didn't want to come off sounding like some newbie, but apparently I did.

I was speaking of the distant future. If no one else tries to set up an emulated live server, I plan to. I know lots of the zones like the back of my hand. And btw, despite the fact that if this emulator reaches the quality level of the live ones, I doubt anyone will have the necessary hardware to emulate a whole server. I personally would just like to do a few zones. Perhaps just Faydwer or something.

Also, I really appreciate the prompt reply. I'm pretty excited about this whole server emulation thing. Thanks! And keep up the good work everyone!!

-Flecko

[madborg]

Flecko-- you said it all when you said it's big. There is a lot of work to making any game server. Over time it will be more and more like EQ --- that is the mostly likely path.

[an_old_EQmage]

just something off my head while thinking about the future of this project. Yeah as you can imagine, trying to emulate a MMOPG like EQ is not really a walk in the park, just think about these features that hasn't been implented :


combat:
- formula for all the offensive skills of all classes vs. mob
- formula for all def. skills of all classes vs. mob
- the mystery of AC, dex only affect proc. ? Wis helps
gaining skills?
- casters skills, specialization, etc
(yeah i know verant already release info about this but who believes them anyways?)

spells:

- mob AE, DoT,
- how does resists apply? both pvm and pvp

rare spawns

- how the hell does verant handle spawning rare mob? people still argue over that ancient cyclop only spawn once per day or you have to kill its placeholder in order to get it to pop blah blah blah...


rare drop

- hmm another myth here, say you are killing phingel for mage's water mastery staff, which is rare as hell, what's your chance of getting it? personally I've killed him 17 times to get my staff, but i've heard stories about people got the staff in one kill and people who had killed him 50 times without luck, one word, verant's random generator sucks, big time.

and there is sooo much more, mob pathing, questing, faction maybe, you get the idea ....

[Flecko]

I realize that in any sort of programming, there are alot of 'unkowns' and 'x-factors' as I like to call them. The formulas and equations that drive your game. Falling damage, skill increases, hit/miss ratio, hell even movement speed. The only way I can see to figure these out is to base them off of what people think they know, and just tweak from there.


I guess my attitude is just wait and see. I'm really excited about this emulator, but I'm ready to wait for it to improve leaps and bounds. I'm quite content messing with it as it is, but I know my friends won't be impressed, not understanding the nature of the beast.

I once again just want to say that I REALLY appreciate what the emulator authors are doing. They seem to be going at a great pace. I just want to wish them luck and godspeed. I'll be here to support!

-Flecko

[Trumpcard]

Ahh, perceptions of the unaware..

I know what you mean.. I was messing around with on my machine the other day and one of my friends exclaimed, 'You mean you dont even have pets yet???' .. Of course, my smart ass asked , 'We'll , do you know anyone other than Verant that does?? I dont seem to recall hearing anything about YOUR emulator'

I just don't think the unwashed masses can appreciate the beauty of whats been done so far, and the huge leaps that have been made already. This project will stay at relatively low numbers until it gets too a BETA point, at which time we'll probably be flooded by newbies screaming how they cant get it too work on their machine, and are we trying to steal their passwords... LOL

My standard friends wouldnt understand it so I dont bother, now my programmer friends on the other hand think its great whats been done so far.

[cbreaker]

Sure, there will be lots of people trying to run EQ servers that have no clue how to use a computer, besides what it takes to get to this forum.

Well, good luck to them. I'll be busy playing EQ on someone's cool new server =)

-CB

[Megahertz]

"- hmm another myth here, say you are killing phingel for mage's water mastery staff, which is rare as hell, what's your chance of getting it? personally I've killed him 17 times to get my staff, but i've heard stories about people got the staff in one kill and people who had killed him 50 times without luck, one word, verant's random generator sucks, big time."


The random generator works fine, the person who thinks otherwise is just not happy with the results. It's like going to play a roulette wheel in vegas and saying their wheel sux cause you lost 15 times in a row.

If there was a constant distribution of chances of winning across the board, i.e. 1 in every 10 kills was guaranteed to be a drop, it wouldnt be very random now would it?

[cbreaker]

The crappy part about it IS the randomness and sparseness.

Heheh think about it.

You get a quest. "Kill XYZ in the temple of ABC, Bring his head to me"

So as a valliant character, you travel to the depths of ABC and seek out XYZ. You slay him, but he doesn't have a head?!

Yea that's realistic. Looks like you'll have to kill him again.. but he's already dead. Hey, no worries, this is a game that doesn't even attempt to hide that fact, so he'll be back!

And it's pointless. The ONLY reason I can think of to have quest items not drop every time is to make it more difficult to complete your quests. It's infuriating. They should have made it difficult in other ways, like more parts to the quests or something, not this game stopper rare drop nonsense.

Ohh, like traveling to most of the places for the Epic quests and other high level quests is easy, right?

So yea, I think Verrant's random drop generator sucks. It sucks because it's there in the first place =)

-CB

[Megahertz]

> The crappy part about it IS the randomness and sparseness.

Fair enough.

Heheh think about it.

You get a quest. "Kill XYZ in the temple of ABC, Bring his head to me"

So as a valliant character, you travel to the depths of ABC and seek out XYZ. You slay him, but he doesn't have a head?!

Agree.

> Yea that's realistic. Looks like you'll have to kill him again.. but he's already dead. Hey, no worries, this is a game that doesn't even attempt to hide that fact, so he'll be back!

Well games are not meant to be realistic. They can be, but sometimes this detracts from gameplay. If this game were "realistic" there wouldnt be dragons in it. Forging a weapon wouldn't be as simple as click click, wow i made a sword. You'd have to spend hours heating a block of steel to high temperatures and folding it over and over to strengthen it, all the while banging on it with a hammer. Joy =)

Or take quake, if it were realistic, youd log on a server and once you died, oops that's it, your out of the game, or possibly out of it for good cause the game just deleted itself. =)

I do understand your point. But realism does not usually equate to fun. Unless its a simulation type game. In any event in this case I agree, if you slay a monster, you should have his head as a prize.

> And it's pointless. The ONLY reason I can think of to have quest items not drop every time is to make it more difficult to complete your quests. It's infuriating. They should have made it difficult in other ways, like more parts to the quests or something, not this game stopper rare drop nonsense.

That only reason IS the reason. There has to be some sort of throttle for letting items into the economy. Especially the uber ones. It would be extremly bad if every cleric had a rez stick or every magician had his epic pets. Or how about those cheal breastplates that dropped. Can you imagine how easy it would be to kill anything in the game given 8+ clerics with those BP's. Even then they had to "nerf" it. And i can understand why. They were simply just too powerful.

Now you make the suggestion that the quests be lengthend and have more steps in them, but I have to say, I dont think thats enough. Even a quest that had 30 steps in it, could prolly be done fairly quickly, given a decent sized guild.

Verant has stated that the Ragefire camp was only a bottleneck because of the demand for the Epic. This I disagree on. Given only 2 clerics vying for the Epic, 1 is going to have to wait because there is another person "in front" of them in line to do the quest. Why couldnt they both do the quest at the same time? They've both put in their time up to this point on the quest. Seems only fair.

Now given this thinking what happens if 50 clerics are at this point. Bam! In an instant, 50 clerics all get their Epics or all the Warriors get their uber sword of llama slaying. Now replicate this to all the other decent items in the game and the items become worthless because theyre so easy to get. Everybody could do the quest at the same time. Items flow in , economy falls in the gutter.

There has to be some way to limit the flow of items into the game, but at the same time not restrict anybody in doing their quest because somebody else is a one step ahead. Its a tough problem to solve.

I agree its a bottle neck. One that needs to be solved, but how?
I see a lot of people complain, but nobody offers any solid solutions.

> Ohh, like traveling to most of the places for the Epic quests and other high level quests is easy, right?

Disagree. If youre of level to be worthy of an Epic item, you should have no problem in doing the quest. Yes it takes sometimes up to a full guild for some parts of the quest, but if didnt, i dont feel it would be very Epic.

As a monk i had one of the hardest spawn camps in the game for my Epic, Mr. Raster of Guk. I spent a good week straight camping him. Did it suck? Slightly. Was it worth it? Fuck yeah! I wouldnt change it at all. The quest was meant to be long and tough and the reward was well worth the cost of the journey.

> So yea, I think Verrant's random drop generator sucks. It sucks because it's there in the first place =)

Well, the way its used does suck, but its a methodology thats prolly been too long in the making to change now. Not without redesigning the game from scratch. Maybe thats what Verant has planned for the other games.

Everquest was the first of its kind. It may not be perfect, and may have some flaws, but all in all, i think its a well rounded game. I played it for almost 2 years, and while i did my share of bitching and moaning about it, I still enjoyed it.


-=[ Megahertz ]=-

[Vipermmx]

"Topic starts bringing back nightmares of the Necro Epic Quest he had completed"

I hate waiting at spawns. As a Necro I did this to get tons of loot then trade. It started sucking once I hit 60 nothing left to see.

[an_old_EQmage]

I think we can at least agree that these situations should changed, unless you really enjoy doing it.. hehe

- sitting at one spot waiting for hours, days, even weeks for xxx mob to pop.
- the mob pops but was instant killed by others. (eg: Quillmane)
- finally killed that mob but it didn't drop what you were looking for.
- go back to square one and start all over again till you drop dead and all your friends think you are crazy.

[Flecko]

See, the worst part about what you're saying on waiting on spawns is this: What if all the spawns where there when you needed them? Would make the epic quests alot shorter. It seems that each classes epic has a strangle point that involves multi-day camps.

I mean, even the testament of vaneer is a long camp at low levels. So I don't think there is really any solution to the problem of long camps, they do have their place. I've played EQ since it came out, and I don't know why I still play. I can't quit. There is some allure to it that I just can't get away from. I mean, I agree that the mechanics of everquest are far from perfect, but in its current state, its a pretty fun game.

Man...this post is going nowhere =P

-Flecko

[Yodason]

erm.... he can drop a head every time IF he is harder =) just make encounter harder. If it can not be made harder without making it imposible then you might wanna scale back loot =p (NEVER NERF A ITEM IN GAME) example vulak. it rewards the 1st while making it very hard for 2nd.

[HellzKnight]

As well known alot of things fist generated from HackersQuest...and they have slacked off alot..then again they had alot of things done to help others start off from...and nomatter how much flaming or bs I hear the programmers extractors..providers...webdesigners..of this site have made me proud...and probably alot of other people happy also...I have sat and tinkered with many things for instance I know of 4 epics missing in the emu...and a monk is basically a waste of time till his skills come into play...and a rogue can't backstab or sneak or hide...but get off these people's back they are kicking themselves and working because as much as we wanna see this work they do to...no one takes into something without a purpose...but as with all things "starting off from the end....and finishing in the beginning"...which basically means..you start with nothing but gutz and pride...and you end with astonishment just to yourself...because most things take so much time..that when it finally comes out..the hype is gone...but some make it to the deadline...EQ was a good game but it's time to be free has come...now lets help as much as we can and provide as a whole like we should and kick some verant arse hehe WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!

Eq Emulators Forever muahaha

Demonicon DarkReaver lvl100 Monkish GM

[Windcatcher]

Flecko...why should having some server operators create custom content scare you? There will always be servers that try to emulate the live servers in content. But...doesn't hashing the same stuff over and over again get stale? I'm so burned out on Norrath content that it makes me sick. As in ready to throw up at the mere thought of entering it again. VI's "Norrath" is merely an imitation of some far more rich examples of the genre. And it's a pretty thin one at that.

When I consider the fantasy genre in general, I can think of far more immersive worlds, with more memorable characters:

- Tolkien's Middle-Earth, of course!

- Donaldson's The Land, from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

- Brooks' land of Shannara

- Feist's Midkemia in the Riftwar Saga

- Jordan's world in the Wheel of Time series

- Ansalon in the Dragonlance saga

And this is just to name a few that merely scratch the surface. Norrath is a collection of the most vivid stereotypes from the fantasy genre, but there is a lot more to fantasy than that. That's why I play AD&D, and why I'll be leaving for NWN once it comes out--both give me the opportunity to create and explore my own worlds, and just as importantly, if not more so, find dimensions to fantasy that break the traditional mold of humans, elves, dwarves, ad nauseam. Granted, the systems I mentioned contain these elements, but we are free to add to or change them as we see fit. It's also why I read and why I attempt to write--to broaden my view.

[madgamer2000]

The emu is incredable and has come a very very long way. Eq emus in general have come a long way. The first incarnation of HQ ethernalquest was cool, but melee seemed like it would be impossible, much less real spells and content creation. All i can say its grats to all the programers.

As far as content i think that some people will make their own stuff, but not to worry. There will be plenty of servers that are exact EQ clones that will be fun to play on as well. Like Flecko said, i know so many of the EQ zones like the back of my hand it would be hard to give all of them up.

[ibleet]

I don't think there is a "final product", that's why they call it EverQuest. :)

[h37lion]

Well, I can say in pure confidence that DoTs do work (I tested out a level 29 druid dot lastnight.. and it worked) in the elmer release.

In my oppinion, the final product isn't important unless you plan on adding something to it. I believe this project is one that derives from the input of it's users.. so the quicker more people submit bugs and ideas the farther along eqemu will come. I mean, just look at what Drwade's database additions did for the emu.. things like this will turn eqemu into a fully functioning "verant-like" server, with all features we paid 10/month for.. and maybe some features that weren't in the original eq.

I still cannot believe I can locally, while offline, play eq on my own fully controllable server.. whether or not the spawns aggro on me, quests can be completed or anything.. I just relish the fact that I can play eq for free, and learn a bit of what goes on in the server-end part of it all.

just my oppinion, probably fully irrelevant to the thread =]

[ZeroDegrez]

There can never be a final product as long as Verant continues the patches.

[h37lion]

Well said.

[cbreaker]

Looking back at this post, page 1 and page 2 could be completely different topics =)

About EQ problems..

Boy, there's a lot about EQ that could be better, but alas, the changes WOULD require a complete re-think about how the game works.

Take something like monster AI for an example. I feel that the reason you have these incredibly strong monsters is that the AI, well, sucks. It's very simple.

The AI in EQ is basically "Attack the character that is doing the most damage" There are slight variances inserted into this, like healing. This seems very basic, more like "You healed an aggro'd character, so I'm considering that heal like you were nuking me" and distance "Even though you did more damage on me, this other person did a bunch too and he's closer"

Unfortunately that's about it. Sure, it's a little bit more complicated than that, not much. So, to compensate, they make the mobs hit VERY hard, and have ridiculous amounts of hit points. Hundreds of thousands on some occations. Of course, you can kill these mobs relatively easy with a well-oiled group of people, because the AI on the monsters is predictable and easily overcome.

So let's say they want to chance this. They make the monsters smart. Well, the higher the level the smarter. They go for the casters and healers first (once they figure out which ones they are). They command other monsters (if they are leader monsters) to block your escape paths. They run away and get help. Change the fighting tactics in mid-fight. Actually tryig to escape in a no-win situation before they are almost dead. Things like that.

Of course, now we have monsters that cannot be killed. They would have to make them less powerful. But now the wizzards' nukes are too strong. Chanters would mezz to easily. Warriors could take their damage forever. Etc etc.

It would be a cascade effect and impossible to do without starting with a fresh server, adjusted quests, new items, new spells, so much changed. All this because they made the monsters smarter. Imagine the dynamics of of it all. EQ keeps it simple, because it started small and it's gotten huge huge based off the original way of thinking.

So maybe we'll see more dynamics in the future of MMORPG's, but not with EQ. The problems with rare drops and dumb monsters that hit too hard will remain, because they have to remain.

EQEmu is emulating Everquest, and the core principals are not being changed. The AI will attempt to mirror EQLive, and thus have the same pitfalls.

All this aside, I do like EQ. Yea, there's a lot I dislike, but you know, it's still fun. I can see how one could easily to fall into the "uber" trap though; all you want is the best loot, and all you see is WORK (over fun) to get them.

And there is a point when you can get to "the end" of what you can do in EQ. Fortunately they release expansions and new things to do, so you can explore these new places when they become available. This is fun! And it's all we have for now.

I'll keep playing and having fun, sometimes pissing off the uber minions of EQ until some GM boots me off.

-CB

ps. I really like EQEmu. =)
ps. I hate the word "uber" with a passion.

[cbreaker]

Ohh yea. Maybe this thread isn't going anywhere, but it IS fun to discuss things like this. Some of us have played EQ for many hundreds of days (playtime!), and have very insightful thoughts about it. None of us here can change EQ, but we CAN talk about it and enjoy the conversation.

This forum is probably one of the best places I've found to talk about EQLive, actually. You have people that know a ton about EW, and you don't get any "You just say that because you can't get into UberGuild XYZ or raid ToV in your sleep hanging upside down from a tree" - or people that absolutely LOVE EverQuest and will not accept the fact that there are flaws in their game.

-cb

[h37lion]

I agree.. it is quite entertaining to think of what eqemu and eqlive can become.

Although, with eqlive I am completely bias on the subject.. I've basically given up any chance that I may ever pay 10/month for all the up/downtime verant offers... or the banning of my accounts for finding little 'quirks' that allowed me abilities that I shouldn't have (nevermind the fact that their programming expertise is what allowed for 'bugs')...
.. so I am very 'religiously' bonded with eqemu. It is allowing me to play eq once again, and fully enjoy it without being commited to paying each month (isn't paying $60 per each new copy of the game itself payment enough??)

On another thread, someone mentioned about Verant making eq single-player-able, due to their profits going down, or whatever..

To me, this is a brilliant Idea.. Mainly because that's what eqemu offers. Funnily enough, I see the developers of eqemu accomplishing this far before Verant.. So in my mind, I set my horizon on seeing eqemu doing this before EqLive. If you could log into eq and play while being offline, and still have npcs.. and 'smart npcs' which would nearly 'simulate' actual players..
.. then wouldn't eq be nearly 'renewed'? I think it would.

Right now the way eqemu is, it's momentus.. completely. Better interaction with npcs/smart npcs/mobs would make everything much better... and I'm sure people as a collective are going to work toward this effort. Hopefully, eventually one day we can load up our servers, log into them.. and have that same feeling of logging in to a 'world' full of people.. and 'live' amongst that world, just as we all have done at one time or another on Verant's servers.

In my honest oppinion, I believe the best Idea at this point would be for the developers to have an eq server on gotfrags that was geared toward development, instead of playtime.. where there was an oper for each zone.. and as a collective, everyone could work on npc/quest scripting... work on enemy ai (because I agree about Verant's Idea of enemy ai leaving much to be desired)
Instead of a few people working on all zones and trying to do everything in Norrath. Then, as new addons and updates came out, you could login to this server to literally experience the new changes, and submit oppinions, etc.. to me, this would be a development effort of a grand scale.. and would inspire me to definitely do everything I could to contribute, because I truelly appreciate eqemu, and what it's allowed me to do so far.


The only 'problem' I experience with eqemu when I'm playing on it, is the latency.. which I feel has a lot to do with the constant loading of info from the database.. but I'm fully confident this is being worked on (judging by status updates, etc).. but what happens is that I go to attack a mob, and it takes a minute or so before anything happens.. spells are delayed, etc.. but it's definitely dealable, and still fun.

I am looking so forward to what the EqEmu developers come up with along with all the other inspired developers that volunteer efforts to make eqemu a great alternative to EqLive.

Just seeing what has been done so far proves to me what can be done in the future, and I'm more excited about that than even ever seeing Verant do another thing with EqLive.
------------------------
Kron TheHorrible - ServerOp
-----------------------

[Shin Noir]

Nice thing about random, you actually set your loot randomness and what not within your own servers. I am a fan of randomness, but I am not a fan of the AC. 150+ hours camping him, not one drop. Because of EQ's integral design, you need randomness to increase difficulty. However, it doesn't need to be seemingly impossible!
Actually, right now I have an idea formulating for my server. What is it? Well it isn't original or anything, basically old EQ on speed. People always say that old EQ would have been cooler if some issues were resolved. I hear that all the time, and I agree. My plans are to make quests relatively easy, and the results well worth while.. My emulation will hopefully capture a lot of what original EQ does, but speed up the process a hundred times faster. Example, level 60 will probably only take you 2 to 5 days playing time. Quests will have randomness involved, but by no means 150+ hours. I'd say 5 hours max, and that's like your epic. With the quests included, I want you to be able to play on my server for a week and pretty much do it all for your class\level. Then you just make a new character, or go around and help newbies or whatever you want like a trophy walking around.

Well enough blabber, i'm just saying that randomness is good if it's not obserd.