Bland?

[Naugrin]

With KPemu dieing and most other servers never breaking a population of 50 i have to ask. Is the everquest emu population dieing out or is there just a lack of creativity in the server building process?

Granted, we see about 6-8 new servers pop up every quarter but how many of those truly stay around? Why do servers fail and what could be done to help it?

Lets take a look at the current servers with a population over 50 that have been around for years.

Project1999, Best attempt at a classic - trilogy everquest server.
Project1999Red, Best attempt at a classic - trilogy everquest server, PVP.
PEQ TGC, Best attempt at a titanium client server - classic - GoD.
EQ Titanium, Legit PoP / LDoN / GoD.
EZ Server, Highly Custom Server that includes hours and hours of custom content.
THF, Highly Custom Server that includes hours and hours of custom content.
Dragon Soul (CEQ) - Legit Chinese Server.

Finally we get to the last server that has a population higher then 50 and this server is a newer server.

Leetsauce Productions, Custom Content, MQ2Usage Allowed.

Lets be totally honest here for a second. Do you believe that there will be anymore "innovating game changing servers" or is the EQEMU community just exhausted?

[Tyen05]

If there was a better classic (orig to velious) database/quest template that was open source, you would see a better population spread out amongst those servers.

Also the default server source is lacking in terms of pathing.

Most people dont enjoy the later expansions which is the default for PEQ/Quest/Source and many don't have the patience to spend 3-4 years culling it back to original.


It's also a barrier to entry to get new people to obtain Titanium, install it, and make whatever changes needed to play on a server. It's not overly complicated, but does infact pose a hurdle for people to simply log in and play right away. This is the main reason I'm working on porting the Everquest Client into Unity Webplayer. I want people to be directed to a website and jump in the game instantly.

[Kayen]

Lets be totally honest here for a second. Do you believe that there will be anymore "innovating game changing servers"...

Yes

All the tools exist to make really anything you can dream up.
The only limiting factor is a persons will and time.

[rhyotte]

I agree with Kayen, the new tools that are out are outstanding!

I had an idea for a semi Trilogy // semi old school // semi pvp-ish server.

-- Giants Vs. Dragons = They just kinda dropped it...
-- Gods = They never really developed Deities In Game. How about a Core-Of-Grey Spells, then deity related advanced spells for the various classes? This would differentiate classes: Dark Elf Cleric anyone? The questing possibilities here would be pretty cool, extending into Trading Factions as well!
-- Remember the old Giant Faction Grind // or the Dragon Faction Grind? Have areas like the Court Yard in Skyshrine that are PVP areas... the Dragon Faction people can choose to enter the Court Yard to protect it's denizens from being faction harvested by Giant Faction hunters. If the Giant Faction Hunter wins a PVP combat, they get extra Exp, and Faction; then they can kill the denizens for extra faction and gold // drops etc... and of course a place over in Giants Ville for the Dragon Faction Hunters to go. Whats that? You are a CANDY ASS...? FINE! Go do it the old fashioned Grind Way! Still a perfectly cowardly option ;)
-- Add in Mining, like Shards has...
-- All of the races are an option...
-- Toss in a couple of "new" class combos...Ogre Mage anyone? Purely a flavor thing! Perhaps add in a Barbarian Ranger that uses shamanic type spells...? Just a bit of extra flavor, nothing unbalanced.
-- Re-Vamp all of the old Antonica // Kunark // Vellious zones to be inline with later expansions, so that progression feels "Tight" rather than 'Ugh..not this old ass worthless zone!!' ... Can you imagine Halls of Testing fully revamped for much higher levels, but having kept the old flavor, old quests etc...just all of it Tightly Updated? How about Derakor fully updated for the higher level etc...? Plane of Hate // Plane of Fear anyone? Add in the extension to Antonica that SoD brought, Valdeholm will be needed as the giants need some extra turf...etc
-- Put in the ball busting effort to Fix Enchanters...make them the hero's of old!
-- Put in the ball busting effort to Fix Clerics... "Psst, Mr. Ench...I got you bro..Don't F*ck Up kay?" As an old cleric...I remember those days in Plane of Fear...either I would /tell the Ench, or he would /tell me... and suddenly all hell broke loose, BOOM! heh. Bring some of that back! The Cleric Era of GEAR IS GOD = USE only 3-4 second Fast Heals and Just Spam the Piss out of them! ...!?! Rebalance that... CH should be one of those trusty needed options you reach for regularly... but fast heals can be there too, and of course HoT's. Bring back the excitement! Make what was old, VERY New again, with a few twists here and there...;)

-- Bring back OLD Cazic...but update it to fit smoothly into the classic but new theme...PAW, ...etc... you know the old zones that got messed up bad from updates...

-- Fix Monks...make Monkly Pulling an Art form again!

-- Fix Wizards...if I hear another wizrod tell me "I ain't holding back my blasting, and I ain't running or nothing..." I think I will puke! They F*CKED Wizards UP! Ugh!

Ok, this wall of text is ....too long now.

Just a few ideas that have been kicking around.

[Tyen05]

Also agree with Kayen, with Zaela open sourcing his EQClient importing tools, people have a lot of ability to do some really cool stuff.

Packet's server as an example, and surprisingly, the only live example of what is possible.


The big new EQ development trend is Client Development. There is a lot of developers not only focusing on the server but also the client.

[sunbeam]

Is it possible that you can eventually exhaust the lore and play possibilities of the original game? Then it is time for something new?

I don't know what that "new" would be, but I think I am ready for a new game. But nothing I have seen so far scratches that itch.

Ironically I usually use the original graphics in game, but I kind of might be ready for more advanced graphics. I have seen eq2 videos that were really cool, and would have been impossible to make with eq1. Also Skyrim and the like have kind of given me the itch to play in a more realistic looking world.

[chrsschb]

Well two things killed my server game plan. After 5 years I can't say it wasn't a good run though.

1) We were THE Classic/Trilogy server; then P99 came out and we lost about 95% of our population.

2) The time investment for proper development is astronomical.


Like previously mentioned, the client is old, the game is old, the people who find EQ interesting, are likely old. The current generation of kids aren't interested in anything except WoW and now playing a WoW emulator is extremely easy (not to mention the live game is still extremely newbie friendly). The community is definitely a lot smaller than it was a few years ago. Creating an awesome server with lots of extras means extra downloads, that coupled with issues obtaining the client itself means people who may be interested get frustrated trying to figure out how to play.

[Shin Noir]

Getting friends and new people to do EQEMU is tough. Without fresh blood, we're working with the past. Yeah.

[zerjz3]

My intentions with the Sanctuary server are to create exactly this -- a new game in the EverQuest engine, that does NOT use the EverQuest lore, but instead new lore for a new game, and gameplay that is AAA quality in an old game engine. I think the biggest problem is that most server admins are happy to make some tweaks to the already existing game made by Sony, and that gets old quickly.

[knowom]

I think the biggest problem is that most server admins are happy to make some tweaks to the already existing game made by Sony, and that gets old quickly. I agree more or less with this. Project 1999 is catering to the bulk players seeking that nostalgia aspect and I don't see a server popping up doing a better job of it than they do at that target audience. That leaves a limited amount of players left for the rest of the EQemu community. The servers trying to emulate project 1999 better by a solo developer are never going to hack it and will burn out and fade away as quickly. The truly custom servers are the ones that have a bit of potential for limited appeal, but still need quality development.

A server worth mentioning that's not officially affiliated with EQemu, but has past history with the site and is loosely based upon it is Shards of Dalaya though which I guess has been trying to make in roads to getting back on the same with EQemu. They've done a better job than most when it comes to the custom aspect differentiating itself from Sony's base game.

I do think EQemu is at a crossroads right now though in terms of development. How many players still care about EQ how many all ready have their needs and desires met and filled plus how many does that leave left to go around? What detracts new or older players from EQ at this point the most? The client issue is certainly one that could pose issues, but is there more to it than that.

[Tyen05]

I don't see a server popping up doing a better job of it than they do.

The servers trying to emulate project 1999 better by a solo developer are never going to hack it and will burn out and fade away as quickly.


http://oi40.tinypic.com/t5iour.jpg

[knowom]

Getting friends and new people to do EQEMU is tough. Without fresh blood, we're working with the past. Yeah.

Yeah defiantly true EQ needs a rather serious facelift in a lot of area's. Even the UI could stand a more modern overhaul both in terms of look and functionality. Moving away from Titanium client would be beneficial probably a lot of us don't want to let go of the old nostalgia versions of zones like lavastorm, nektulos forest, ect unfortuantely. Though if we start going more completely custom player made development off the beaten path more like Packets I don't see a compelling reason not to ditch the limitations of the older clients in favor of newer ones. I kind of believe custom developed 3D content might be what could help save EQemu it opens up tons of new possibilities.

Is mapquest a issue with newer EQemu clients as well or just older ones like titanium?

EQ is in a rough spot too in that it's likely way easier to work with and modify WoW while maintaining a decent player base size because of it's much larger base user base and more modern game engine.

[Davood]

I agree.

in response to Rhyotts post - I have experimented with teh god system on my server. you can become a god then gain player worshippers - its still in its infancy, but it works, you can pray to your player-god and get AA from them if they are powerful enough.. the god can buy abilities to grant to their followers etc.

also i have explored the monster races i have abaout 17% done with teh skills but i have added 150 races and have a tierd skill system for each of them- just most of them is placeholders as I haven't had any EQ development time (only bug fixing and maintenance) since over 16 months ago.

that said i did not do mucuh "change" to the original sony vision of eq. I did however setup my server to be a continual dungeon crawl through 100s of zones. its basically mindless slaughter, if you are into it please try it out. otherwise go elsewhere if you require a deep story.

as kayen said, its all bout time and motivation. I know i am motivated, but I don't have the time. I am working two full time jobs right now (literally) and that will go on for many more months before one of them overtakes the other then I can have some free time again.

[knowom]

Time and motivation is a difficult thing when the community is so small and has a limited appeal outside those simply seeking out old school p1999 style nostalgia.

[ghanja]

If you build it, they will come.

However, where are the guides? Do "they" have to search for them? I still see to this day, posts on FB groups concerning EQEmu and people's ignorance regarding it much less how to access servers and such.

That's not to say the information isn't out there/on here, we know darn well it is. Though, is it in a pretty little package all wrapped up nicely with a bright red bow? Last I knew, it wasn't. This isn't a critical post, simply engaging conversation.

Then I see some that "get it" in that they should keep a separate directory (read: EQ install) for each server they access. I'm aware there was a recently revamped program that allows for server selection with greater ease (right? I'm still old school and keep separate directories or did when I was active on EQEmu's last), though, given the insignificant installation size of EQ (imo) compared to hard drive capacity anymore, I really don't see the bother.

The concentration should be on what truly makes and always has made the game we have come to all but idolize and that is, the community, the players. I sincerely doubt that anytime in the foreseeable future the servers up now will go anywhere. So, it's been "built" so-to-speak. Now, let's get the players. There are still quite a few interested in EQ, but perhaps not so much in the newer EQ much less the current. But, I still see them replying to suggestions for them to pick up a copy of Titanium and give an EQEMu server a whirl with: 1. "Won't I get in trouble?" 2. "How does that work?" etc.

I remember what seemed not too long ago (if 10+ years isn't "long ago" to you) that SOE and those working for them, including the guiding program, information players, or in the case of guides, reminding them, that participating on an EQEmu server could lead to them getting the ban hammer. It left a stigma about EQEmu that really should be removed from their minds/thoughts.

I'll personally continue on spreading awareness, though, seeing people to this day posting questions about p99 on the EQEmu forums, well. Needless to say, I (we?) have my (our?) work cut out for me (us?).

[Davood]

when the live servers inevitably take a nose dive and cost too much to justify for SOE - we will see a ridiculously huge influx of people here

maybe even enough to produce some quality servers or "well staffed" servers anyways.

right now the problem is the population. it is fairly static. everyone is a good ole boy and there aren't alot of fresh people coming to eqemu.

an increase in demand will force and increase in quality as the "other" servers will have to truly innovate to capture the audience that is 95% interested in p99 and PEQ. the non innovative servers will be lost as white noise amongst potentially 100s of servers that will popup

honestly - if you take EQ as a whole. it sucks! the mudflation destroyed the game after luclin.

now that we have all these zones and resources at our disposal, a genius designer should be able to eventually come up with a much better design for eq and lore etc so that it can remain fun and challenging.

one thing that has always bothered me is the blandness and uselessness of tradeskills. yes they are for some quests and there are some cool specific items that can be made with them once again as part of a quest - but the general items are complete trash

if i have time I will do this but -

every item in the game should be craftable. that way an item is either craftable or it is a component.

technically its not hard to do, it just isnt' ready yet on my long list of todos that i will not complete anytime soon :)

[Krran]

I wanted to say that I have been here for a while, but mostly lurking. I have tried to contribute before, but I feel that even still, my knowledge of the complexities of the project are still lacking (even though I do know some programming).

I have been bopping around in my private home server for at least 5 or 6 years, rarely poking my head into the public. I have adapted some of the emu code, quests, and DB stuff to suit my wishes, but it remains pretty vanilla.

Anyway, maybe there is a sizable hermit-like population? EQ folks can be twitchy and skittish, myself included.

-Edited for grammar

[rhyotte]

One thing that would be cool is to gather up the Year 1999 launch info on classes, into year 2000ish. Some classes like necro went through quite a few revisions...

Another thing would be a central repository of old zones...Cazic comes to mine... many others as well. I know cazic has been pretty well re-claimed, but maybe a place on the wiki for Old Zones?

Then of course, old items that were nerfed... ;)

Reworking spells to get back some of the original seat of the pants excitement as well. I think this would require a team effort. In order to really revamp a class, you kinda need to have a real understanding of it. Non clerics would likely say something like " Just make a 1 second casting super heal over time that holds for at least a minute, and only costs like 100 mana hahahah"....but that would suck ass for excitement ;) be nice as a set up super training wheels to make it booring though!f

As for the team effort on spells... even having good representation of the classes giving initial feedback on various spells to the person actually doing the edits would be good...

Just a few ideas.

[zeldik]

I think one factor with emulator servers is players know everything about EverQuest however there isn't a server that gives a new world like EQ was in 1999 so if it was the same game engine just new zone designs,mobs,quests,or things unknown players would slow down because they would have to start from scratch and couldn't just box or burn through content to the endgame in no time because nothing would be known.

There is the new age of gamers who enjoy more catered games but I think enough people enjoy EQ,etc still...

Another factor is you get what you pay for and if its FREE and you put in insane amounts of your time or some money as a Developer and dont receive anything in return it can be a hassle and a full time job without much appreciation to keep a server going.

[zerjz3]

Zeldik, the Sanctuary server does all of the things you described in your post above. Give it a try sometime!

[lupisnoctum]

I have to agree with some of the above posters, the only way to really breathe new life into EQ Emu is with fully custom content. That said, even running a semi-modified server is a huge commitment of time. Generating an entire custom world/classes/etc. even more so.

From what I've noticed on my journey through Emuland is that the real problem seems to stem from a lack of the right kind of people to do the actual work. The tools are out there. Akka and the rest of the high-end lads have done a ton of work providing wonderful stuff to get even a novice up and rolling. However, tools are nothing without someone to use them properly.

To succeed (or even be worth playing) a server needs three things: a quality staff, a quality plan, and a quality community. Three points do determine a plane, and are required for a server to support itself. Those with the Vision and creativity might lack the coding skills. Those with the coding skills may lack the Vision. Those with one or both may lack the business, social skills, and self-awareness to provide a stable playing environment and properly police and control their community.

Yes, I said business skills. Even if one isn't following the current trend of donation farming, a server should still follow a business-style paradigm. No matter how bold the Vision or how uber the developer, a server without players is a pointless waste of time. Players are the developer's customers, so to speak. If Joe_Dev0432 doesn't have the skills to properly analyze the needs and desires of his proposed client base and respond appropriately to them, he may as well not even boot the bloody server up in the first place.

At first glance, the classic "basement virgin/alpha geek" brand of coder might seem to be the perfect person to helm an emu server. Lacking distractions like friends, sex partners, and jobs they certainly have the time on their hands to devote to such a project. Problem is, their lack of social skills and self awareness tends to corrupt any project they initiate or have access to. How many names sprang to mind when you read that? Heh. Power corrupts, and those who aren't used to having even a modicum of power in the real world are corrupted even faster in the online world. No-lifers and Aspergery types may know their code, but they shouldn't be allowed up front in the showroom. "Basement rage" might be amusing in small doses when it comes from players, but it shouldn't be allowed to taint any aspect of an emu project. Lack of time and/or interest might be the number one server-killer, but fevered egos coupled with a false sense of infallibility run a very very close second.

There are indeed some very good programmers floating around who actually have jobs and make their living at it. These guys might even have friends, lovers, and a life outside the Internet. The problem there, obviously, is that having a real life tends to take away time from working on a server. Another problem is that while they may have the technical skills they may lack the non-coding creativity to bring something new content-wise to the table. No offense intended, but it's kind of a left brain/right brain issue. The guy who designed your car's engine probably isn't the guy who designed the car's body and interior. It's a matter of different skill sets.

Bottom line is that it does take more than one person to envision, create, and maintain a server worth playing. Since the qualities and skills needed are very rarely found in a single person, this obviously necessitates a team effort. The term "developer" has become so abused and misapplied in Emuland that we should simply dispense with it at this point in the discussion. My "off the top" outline of a good team makeup follows.

1) The Producer: Project lead, manager, whatever you prefer. Someone in charge, the capo de capo who's Vision guides the entire project. Someone who decides what is needed and finds someone to fill the various roles. Preferably creative enough to be in charge of overall design and provide the majority of the non-technical content. Must be stable and experienced enough to hire the right people and strong enough to fire them when they turn out to be the wrong people. This position has to be filled by someone who is the polar opposite of the typical MMO cellar dweller. Real-life experience, objectivity, and people skills are essential here.

2) The Coder(s): Fairly obvious who these guys are. Sorting through the usual suspects for coders who can do quality and reliable work is the Producer's most important job. This is where real-life experience comes in handy. We've all seen too many unsuspecting devs get suckered in by the fast lines of the roving band of self-styled "l33t hax0r" types who promise the world but usually come armed with only a monkey wrench to throw in the works. If you're not aware enough to sort these lads out fast, don't be a Producer.

3) The Tester(s): It's too easy to get too close to a project. This makes it essential to have at least one or more stable people who can be trusted to play and offer objective advice on class skills, balance, and content direction. Ideally, they'd be involved in no other aspect of the operation to preserve objectivity. One simply cannot tell how the mechanics of the server or classes are going to work from a spreadsheet or calculator. Product testing is essential at all phases of a project. Once a server is up and running, I would suggest picking "class advocates" either formally or informally to get further input on just how various mechanics are working out and to take some of the burden off of the core testers.

So there you have it. Three core positions that need to be filled by a minimum of three different people. Obviously, there can and ideally will be some overlap of the various positions. Having one person in absolute control of the project though is essential. Too may cooks do indeed spoil the broth. A server that is expected to last for a while needs a Gordon Ramsay at at the helm, not a committee or a "people pleaser." Keep the team lean & mean and don't be afraid to cut out the dead weight or the toxic personalities.

For those of you who think I've put too much thought in to this, well, actually I haven't. It's just good old-fashioned common sense. For those of you who squeal "OMG it'z just emu," well, if you're not going to do something right, why do it in the first place? If you're not in it for the long haul, seriously, don't bother.

For those of you who've read this far, concoct a bold new plan, assemble a team, and get to work! There's enough interest and love of the game out there to bring Emu out of the current slump provided the community at large can produce even two or three new servers with long-term viability. Objectively assess and determine your personal strengths and weaknesses and pick your role and team accordingly.

[Apologetic]

I always liken the idea of a game to a woman. EQ even more so. So when I try and out a video game its quite like a first date. Obviously I'm not gonna know the woman (or the game) totally and all the good and bad right off the bat but I can make some fair sighted judgments. I've been playing Everquest since I was 13 with my Father so yes I have lots of nostalgic purposes with it, but I can also see it for what it is. With emulated servers we are able to kind of play dress up and see what we can create, but you have to remember that its just the same woman under it all. That's not saying you can't be massively creative or unique.

So Everquest is obviously a woman who has aged with some charm. Lets be real no one is playing EQ purely on graphical purpose, and people seriously overblow this. Plenty of games have done great with subpar graphics in their category *cough* Minecraft *cough* and developed great followings. We don't need great graphics for a great game. Just as you don't need a 10/10 woman to be happy, and infact usually under all those pretty bells and whistles lie flaws.

So what drew me personally to Everquest? Well first lets start off, I started AFTER the Velious/Kunark era. So I'm not some old grumpy stiff neck that thinks everything after that era sucks :cool:. I enjoyed a lot of content, from DoDH and doing MM with my brother to grinding it out in Dragonscale Hills. It always has and always will be THE COMMUNITY. THE CHALLENGE. THE UNIQUE TAKES ON CLASSES. Just like with an older woman she may not be the prettiest, often she has the depth and substance to let you see past that, like a good video game. A game like EverQuest can still fit into today, if it plays on its strengths and works on its weaknesses. Yes I doubt Everquest will ever be a pleasing game to look at like FF14 or GW2, however as when you find out with an older woman versus a younger one, the young women (and games) may look pretty, but you just typically can't find the adoration and respect for it like a well developed older woman.

So yes there is only so much work we can do, but we can do a lot (I think any one of Akkadius's servers prove how custom you can really get). Just don't go for the older lady expecting the sweet looks of the younger lady. Instead, look for the deepness like the richness of game play, the connection within the community, the bonds you develop inside and outside the game. Seriously if we play on the community aspect alone EQ will still stand A MILLION miles ahead of a lot of MMOs and why I have a hard time leaving it. Add in the challenging gameplay and the deepness and I'm sold.