Population

[The_Beast]

So much to choose from if you are looking for a group. Friday night player base.

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q739/TheBeast2K/FridayNight-Servers_zps0fhbjubj.jpg (http://s1356.photobucket.com/user/TheBeast2K/media/FridayNight-Servers_zps0fhbjubj.jpg.html)

[Mortykins]

It's nice to see lots of diversity and mini community's that players can take part in that's for sure. :)

Morty
www.raidaddicts.org

[tdanger84]

wish Prymeeq hadn't ended up in the dirt =/ so hard to find server that will let me solo through cooler high end zones

[The_Beast]

If you're around about June 1st'ish been working on something for 8 months now that you might like.Challenging but built for solo bosses with finely tuned bots:)

[Maze_EQ]

If you're around about June 1st'ish been working on something for 8 months now that you might like.Challenging but built for solo bosses with finely tuned bots:)

Lost me at bots.

[Albator]

If you're around about June 1st'ish been working on something for 8 months now that you might like.Challenging but built for solo bosses with finely tuned bots:)

I think people want single player everquest as in just them no bots.

[Maze_EQ]

I really want a server where you need to interact with others.

Not a solo wasteland, I have Mass Effect, Witcher, and Horizon for that.

[tdanger84]

definitely disagree. I like having a community of players to talk to, get advice, and assist when needed, but I prefer to adventure alone. I actually like bots and if I can play through with a bot group I'm happy. The grouping servers just end up being boxing servers anyway. why hassle with running multiple accounts. i dont know anyone in the real world that plays this ancient game that I still have passion for. i'd wager a large amount of these emu players are like me and have lives and kids and just want to pop on and adventure on our time when we have it


I will say i do like interaction though in the form of player economy. im the guy thats always dropping gear to every noob i see and trying to help people learn the server

[Jahosphat]

WE <3 bots.

[Maze_EQ]

WE <3 bots.

Brexit doesn't <3 bots.

[Mistmaker]

What's important to point out is that EQemu offers many variety of servers that fit those that have a family (like me) and those that wish to just solo. If you want extreme social and no bots then I suggest playing P99.

Read the server descriptions and give them all a try until you find one that fits your style of play. Don't be fooled my populations! I have been on servers where half the server that's showing online are all AFK and it makes me wonder if most of those accounts are the owners trying to show mass numbers to attract players. I also notice that some allow boxing and I have raided with one person playing 13 accounts so just him and I would show 14 players online.

Our server has always been low population and I like it that way. It makes it easier to interact directly with the players as they come online. It also lets me tune the servers raid areas and bosses for 2-5 players WITH BOTS! You will not be able to solo those areas and you will need to interact with others and be social if you wish to progress.

Find what fits your style and don't be fooled by a zone in with tons of quest dialog or high population levels. Find what YOU like and go out of your comfort zone and talk to others. It's only a game. :)

[sunbeam]

I really want a server where you need to interact with others.

Not a solo wasteland, I have Mass Effect, Witcher, and Horizon for that.

This is a very poor game for single player, no matter what lipstick you put on the pig.

No single player game ever has ever had something implemented like camping an item. Or camping for experience.

I really don't think that was intended back in 1999, it's just that the game and playerbase evolved into that system. Somehow. And every other game, the successful ones that is, avoid it.

The closest you come to EQ's camping is something like Diablo's random loot. And that is really not the same thing at all.

Try to imagine Baldur's Gate implemented EQ playstyle.

I really don't get what a lot of the servers that come and go are trying to do. Here's how I see it in a nutshell:

1) This is a social game to the core. No one would ever do something so silly as to endlessly camp ... whatever, in the end it's all the same - without interacting with others or having the fruits of your solo camping pay off in some manner when you actually do interact with other people. Whether that is being a star at being in an experience group, or really helping your guild because you have an instaclick Circlet of Shadows and can do some funky things.

Then there is the fact that if you play the game anything like it was on live, you need an army for raid mobs. And don't deceive yourself, no one is going to play for any extended amount of time just killing R'ygorr for armor drops.

They want the loot you get from Temple of Veeshan - whether the server pop runs at 3 or whatever number it would take for enough people to decide to got to ToV at the same time in sufficient number to do the mobs.

And that brings us to trade skills. They suck. They are stupid. We all know that. If you say otherwise, you are being a Devil's Advocate to the point of perversity.

But you need them for some quests. And doing something like the Earring of the Solstice, without a bazaar and lots of other tradeskillers out there for various things means you have to do ALL the trade skills yourself.

Some of them aren't too bad in the beginning. But then you have to farm items forever to level up tailoring. You need foraged items so you can make this so you can level up that other tradeskill you need to level up the one you are trying to level...

All without some noobie farming HQ Bear Pelts or Misty Acorns and putting them in the bazaar for your convenience.

2) Now some servers get around things by making it more soloable. You've seen several different approaches, but the most common are boxing and bots.

I submit to you that the players who really get into their bot armies, using MQ, writing macros, and enjoying it all - is not a big percentage of even the EMU population.

And don't delude yourself. Boxing sucks ass without MQ. Even the ones that like boxing really don't enjoy alt-tabbing or having to fork out a ton of money for separate monitors/computers to box in their fortress of solitude.

Now obviously there are some really, really good reasons to ban MQ from a server. I understand totally.

But I also imagine the number of people who really want to deal with three boxing (like the two Al'Kabor servers) without MQ is fairly small.

Which is interesting. You can think of all sorts of reasons why it is sort of working there. Or maybe there are a lot of people going commando (single) or just two-boxing. Or maybe there really are only 180/3 or so individuals playing that during peak.

No idea, but I am not dealing with that old client to log on and look around.

3) Now this is the point where the catch-22 comes in. If you want EQ to be like it was you need the people. But the people won't come, unless the people are already there.

P1999 made the breakthrough. The Al'Kabors, one of them at least, might.

The other attempts start up, things go for a while, then they become perennial zero-people-logged-in servers.

There are some other attempts out there, that basically turn EQ into a totally different game using the client and graphical assets as the building base.

But they are really different games.

I'd even say Stormhaven is one such. Things like PEQ, THF, EZServer are bot army servers.

[mjbcb0717]

I'd even say Stormhaven is one such. Things like PEQ, THF, EZServer are bot army servers.

These are outrageous box servers were you need to box 24 just to do shit...screw that noise I can't stand to box more then 3 bots are ok sometimes but I prefer to group amd do stuff with actual players. Idk why so many people are bringing out out legit p99 wannabe servers they fail 99% of the time everyone only wants duo or small grp stuff now days and all the good servers like this are gone. Sad day :(

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Good write up Sunbeam!

And I agree with most of it, specially with "people won't come, unless the people are already there", which is a big problem for creating group oriented server.

I think I want to note however - non camping progression works for Baldurs Gates, because BG is a full scale RPG with a big evolving story-line. Moderns MMOS like WoW don't really have that. Yes there usually some central story line which mostly caters to high end raiders, but that's it - most of WoW consists of small time quest chains that go like this : "Investigate Village X - Kill 5 mobs - Investigate Y - kill 10 mobs - Kill local boss - Reward". I can produce those quests chain 20 an hour.
When playing WoW I found myself desperately running around doing these, and getting XP too fast to actually enjoy exploring what is obviously a beautiful scenery. I actually WANT to stay in zone for a WHILE - I want to camp/roam around that beautiful waterfall to spawn that rare named Z and kill it for some sweet random loot. But NO - the quest chain keeps pushing me forward to next location when I barely taking a look at the current one, and a handful of quest steps down the road I am ALREADY leaving the zone for the next.

What I ideally want from EMU server is some sort of middle ground between Hard Core EQ and modern MMO.
EQ was too hardcore and too slow - WoW too casual and too fast.
Crafting in EQ was painful and mostly meaningless with only goal to skill up to do a quest combine.
Crafting in WoW is boringly easy and just based on mats grinds.
EQ2 had perfect crafting system (which they dumbified few years later) that was both REASONABLY challenging AND REWARDING.

What I want from EMu is a server where SOlO exists for ALL classes, but groups/raids also exists, and no bots/boxes are allowed.

This would allow server to be acceptable to casual solo players, and when their number builds up - they could potentially form up pick groups or even guilds to take on harder tasks. It is OK not to make ALL content solo-able - let there be hard encounters that REQUIRE a full group (or hek even 2 for super boss fights) - yes you can't do this solo, so persuade others to join in! ;)

[ChaosSlayerZ]

There are some other attempts out there, that basically turn EQ into a totally different game using the client and graphical assets as the building base.

But they are really different games.


I have been working on a server idea that plans to completely redo the classes and most of the world while still keeping it in "EQ spirit" - hopefully one day I will show you my work ;)

[sunbeam]

What I want from EMu is a server where SOlO exists for ALL classes, but groups/raids also exists, and no bots/boxes are allowed.

This would allow server to be acceptable to casual solo players, and when their number builds up - they could potentially form up pick groups or even guilds to take on harder tasks. It is OK not to make ALL content solo-able - let there be hard encounters that REQUIRE a full group (or hek even 2 for super boss fights) - yes you can't do this solo, so persuade others to join in! ;)

I've come to think that the problem is, at least up through PoP (which is where both the content and the player interest stops really), the problem is the inordinate amount of hp's on the raid mobs.

Look a good group can do LOTS of things. Find a way to get through Ssra Temple, kill past the butterflies in Temple of Veeshan (and deal with those roaming assassins that seem to sneak up on you as adds).

But then you hit the crazy hp's on the raid mobs you started to see in Velious.

A C-Heal chain is just not a viable thing to require for progression (and this among other things is a loot based game; you need the loot to progress).

Really Kunark is doable without adjusting too many things. There is a lot more knowledge out there, and the techniques are all worked out.

It's when you start hitting Vulak, Avatar, and all the rest that it becomes totally unworkable.

How many people did it take to do Lord Bob (you know Doljon-whatever in Velk's) back in the day? Think he is only around 100,000 hp's with some buddies to make it harder. If you have to have more than that, it's not happening.

Then there are the things like PoSky (the deathtouching mobs). You know that that zone was never soloed till people could eat those deathtouches in some fashion? Just saying that zone was never soloed till after the Avatar of War could be soloed in game.

If you need PoSky for a quest piece (like some epics, notably the mage one), you really have to have a lot, like 40 people at least to do it if the zone is like live. And people are going to die every 18 seconds or whatever, actually the youtube videos I've seen have it timed "death touch incoming, 5-4-3-2- Buffy is down, drag her corpse and have Beerswill click her back... deathtouch in 10 seconds..."

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Look a good group can do LOTS of things. Find a way to get through Ssra Temple, kill past the butterflies in Temple of Veeshan (and deal with those roaming assassins that seem to sneak up on you as adds).

But then you hit the crazy hp's on the raid mobs you started to see in Velious.



Well essentially - you can't just take stock EQ DB adjust a few numbers and call it a new server - the ENTIRE WORLD has to be re-done from scratch ;)
So lev 61 mob in Velious is NOT 4x times stronger than lev 60 mob in Kunark, but smoothly progresses to be slightly harder ;)

Heck if anything the combat engine needs to be rewritten to be more straight forward rather than try to emulate LIFE's weird pre and post 40/50/60 difficulty spikes, hard/soft stat caps etc.

And yeah, DT fights were the stupidest of the all - it was essentially a challenge only to bring shit load of people to survive them, with no chance to play around them.
Good things they dropped this crap in all following expansions.

[The_Beast]

fit those that have a family

Just for the sake of topic, I am not really sure I understand the difference between "yesterday's" family man/woman playing EQ and today's family player.
I noticed some of today's players make an implication, that all the people who played everquest back when it came out, were "alleged" single young people
with not much RL responsibility, allowing them the time to play that regular Everquest grind back then. But people like myself and many others I knew,
we already had a wife, kids and full time job when Everquest was released in 1999. No, we couldn't spend 3-4 hours a day, but I never spent that much
time on any game, even when I was single and care free. The original Everquest was definately not a game setup for impatient players. It wasn't a deal where
you would eventually see "Game Over". Somedays, I had just enough time to login and add 100 plat to my bank and logout, then go watch a movie with my
wife. There was always tomorrow.

[Mistmaker]

I have played many games that are not fit to play and have a family (kids etc) if you wish to advance past group/solo items. These are the ones where your 100% attention is needed during the raid or even just to stay alive. Back in 99 (if you raided at all) you even had guilds that would kick you out of the guild if you were not fully devoted to what was happening during the raid. WoW was extreme for this and and I also know EQ2 was too.

I don't think the game was designed for family back then. Could you think of playing EQ with your 7 year old? After his first CR he would never play again. Today I play with mine on Asgard, because all those game frustrations I removed. I think today's family player also has kids that they involve. That was rare to see back in 99.

The EQemu servers I think would be more difficult to play if you have a family are the ones that I had problems playing. So from my experience with 4 kids and 3 dogs anything that requires me to play an FD class like P99 I found to be difficult. I would also say anything that requires me to play a box team like EZServer would also be difficult.

So server fit for family would be IMHO those that dont require you to run a large box team and those that you can include your kids. If you wish to play on p99 make sure to apply for that IP exemption and then watch your kids fight over who gets to play when you only get 1 extra for access. :)

I speak from my own personal experiences and others may have a different experience so just telling it how it has been for me. Back in 99 i was married and had a child then too so again I'm talking from my experiences.



Just for the sake of topic, I am not really sure I understand the difference between "yesterday's" family man/woman playing EQ and today's family player.
I noticed some of today's players make an implication, that all the people who played everquest back when it came out, were "alleged" single young people
with not much RL responsibility, allowing them the time to play that regular Everquest grind back then. But people like myself and many others I knew,
we already had a wife, kids and full time job when Everquest was released in 1999. No, we couldn't spend 3-4 hours a day, but I never spent that much
time on any game, even when I was single and care free. The original Everquest was definately not a game setup for impatient players. It wasn't a deal where
you would eventually see "Game Over". Somedays, I had just enough time to login and add 100 plat to my bank and logout, then go watch a movie with my
wife. There was always tomorrow.

[sunbeam]

I have played many games that are not fit to play and have a family (kids etc) if you wish to advance past group/solo items. These are the ones where your 100% attention is needed during the raid or even just to stay alive. Back in 99 (if you raided at all) you even had guilds that would kick you out of the guild if you were not fully devoted to what was happening during the raid. WoW was extreme for this and and I also know EQ2 was too.

I don't think the game was designed for family back then. Could you think of playing EQ with your 7 year old? After his first CR he would never play again. Today I play with mine on Asgard, because all those game frustrations I removed. I think today's family player also has kids that they involve. That was rare to see back in 99.

The EQemu servers I think would be more difficult to play if you have a family are the ones that I had problems playing. So from my experience with 4 kids and 3 dogs anything that requires me to play an FD class like P99 I found to be difficult. I would also say anything that requires me to play a box team like EZServer would also be difficult.

So server fit for family would be IMHO those that dont require you to run a large box team and those that you can include your kids. If you wish to play on p99 make sure to apply for that IP exemption and then watch your kids fight over who gets to play when you only get 1 extra for access. :)

I speak from my own personal experiences and others may have a different experience so just telling it how it has been for me. Back in 99 i was married and had a child then too so again I'm talking from my experiences.

To go along with this, how many of us in this EMU community are totally new players, as opposed to people who played in the past on live?

I'd go a little further than that, and say most of us started sometime between launch and PoP.

This game is getting to be 18 years old. The graphics alone are a hard sell to new players. I know I've showed it to my nephews, and they are pretty meh about it (though they like Dwarven Fortress, go figure).

But what you can and are willing to do as a high school or college student, and what you can or are willing to do when you have a full time job and a kid are different things.

I know some of the "OG" players had families and stuff. But come on, if you were in one of the famous raiding guilds like Legacy of Steel, Afterlife, FoH, I really can't see that going well with a family situation.

Yeah, you can focus on being in the Complete Heal chain when your wife yells at you "Ok Gary, you are changing the diaper THIS time."

Cause yelling back "No can do Hon. It will take another 30 minutes or so for this mob. Thanks for understanding!" might just be a bad move.

You know writing that... I wonder if EQ has ever been used in a divorce proceeding? I can totally see it actually:

"Your Honor he neglected his family because he spent forty plus hours a week playing a fantasy game. The man might as well have not been in the household. Instead he was... let me look at this...'summoning mod rods and dropping them on the ground'...for the benefit of other people also playing this imaginary game, whom he has actually never met in person. Leaving his wife to assume total responsibility for the care of their child.

Additionally your honor, my client fears for the health and well being of little Ralph should his father gain custody of the child. She worries that instead of spending the time to cook a nutritious meal for the both of them, he will instead give Ralph a bag of Cheetos and a Mountain Dew, as that is apparently all he eats if left to his own devices.

Now I might also bring to your Honor's attention this matter of the 'poopsock'..."

[The_Beast]

Well back when the "family man" played EQ, it wasn't much different than someone having, for example, a hot rod project in the garage that he worked on whenever he had time.
My wife, kids and I would spend time together as a family, sometimes the wife would spend one on one time with the kids and times I would spend "daddy time" with the kids. Any
hours I spent on EQ was strictly when the wife and kids were busy, or sleeping. Right from day one, it was always difficult for a guild to have enough on for a raid, I soloed, I grouped
and had the odd opportunity to go on a raid once in awhile. I just did whatever was feasible at the time. A family lifestyle doesn't really prevent you from doing anything in the
game, it would just take a lot longer to accomplish things you want to do. It can take many more months and lots of patience, while keeping RL responsibilities a priority. I never
climbed on to play any computer game when my wife and kids were awake and/or in my presence. But I wasn't in one of those relationships where the "couple" spends 24/7 together.
We gave each other our own space, and what we did in that space was an individual preference. Some used it in the garage, others were in a sports bar with his buddies and
some, well, we were playing EQ. At one point, we had a Thursday night ritual where 5 of us got together in a room every Thusday night we had setup with our towers and have a
"gaming night" The wife and kids were doing their own thing at a friend's house, doing girly things :)

[kokey98]

i knew one person who nearly lost his wife over eq within 2-3 years of launch.

he made the right choice and barely played after that. i knew a bunch of people that got burned out... same stuff happens with wow, too. they play less and less after each time they take a hiatus.

the game is a time sink, and the way it was made early on you had to play 12 hours a day to be as good as the 'best' players. an emu offers an ability to change that and many like that idea.

i think the perceptions in this forum are a result of group think at times in regard to how people play or what they want. realize a majority of people do not contribute on the forums... you have no idea what the masses think by reading forums that only 10% (more likely less) of people are a part of. forums require a particular personality to keep up on them... i've lurked around here for more than 10years and i've psoted more in the last couple months than the previous 9 years together.

you can see the servers (standard) that are successful are the ones operated with some consistency and can keep it online for years to come. certain server-owners pop up on occasion and consistently flake out -- more power to them, but i'm glad when someone points it out -- although they should learn to be less of an a@@ when doing it (i think a request from forum operators was in response to this - telling us to play nice(r) etc).

you'll also notice the only successful standard ones also do something to make the game a bit more solo-friendly (solo includes boxers, too).

once they start flip-flopping with rules, i typically leave.. it's a bad omen. likely a teen-ager who keeps seeing greener pastures instead of developing the one he's currently in (or she, i grew up when "he" is grammatically correct for both genders).. or worse they have conflicting goals and behaviours - i gues that could fall under flakiness.

standard servers:

-got plenty of boxer servers that are more of the same from preffered and legends

-got vog and nag lair that are more solo friendly... one has some custome progression, one is more 'legit' for a lack of a better word.

there's a bot server here and there, but they aren't as well put togoether as vog or nag lair... you either get high-end gear at level one or it's 1-swing and move to next npc etc... there's no middle ground with bot-servers, yet.

despite the commonn resonse you see in teh forums.. .there are not "many" bot servers... most are too easy or a complete mess or are simply inconsistent (you choose a way).

i'd like one closer to vog/nag lair type difficulty. i also don't want to take 3 months to get upto level - that's the easy part that has nothign to do with the actual game - pure time sink. i want to spend time gathering useful gear, and gradually working way up to more difficult end-game stuff. i've been dinking around with one on my pc, so maybe i'll jsut make it as i want, but that will take a very long time relative to what i can invest each day.

so, there really isn't a middle-road bot server... they are more like god-servers since you just mow stuff down. I'd probably liek imperium or raid addicts but i don't want a 1-85 or 1-100 server. so many levels is silly and plenty of other ways to accomplish whatever goal was the impetus such a large quantity. i want the end-game stuff to be slow and require better gear etc etc.. getting there isn't fun for me... i've deen it 1000 times between wow and eq... at this point it's the worst part of the game for me, lol.

---

even the more solo-friendly ones commonly say - but you'll have to group up for bigger stuff... but if i only have a few opportunties to group with someone and it's required to do important things on that server, then i'm very likely to quit logging in since i can't do anythign on my schedule... i have to hope some others are available and more importantly interested in helping (and vice versa).

on the other side... if i have 1 hour to play, i don't want to go sit around killing 1 npc for someone i don't know.. and i understand it's the same from their perspective, too.

most mmo'ers do have some sort of anti-social problem - whether it's mild or severe, it is there. Just google Nick Burns SNL IT guy -- that's a typicall mmo-er (from 18 years of experience with them, lol). it's like a game show when you group up, lol. "please, no whammies, no whammies, stop!" whaaa-whaaa, you lose.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

even the more solo-friendly ones commonly say - but you'll have to group up for bigger stuff... but if i only have a few opportunties to group with someone and it's required to do important things on that server, then i'm very likely to quit logging in since i can't do anythign on my schedule... i have to hope some others are available and more importantly interested in helping (and vice versa).

on the other side... if i have 1 hour to play, i don't want to go sit around killing 1 npc for someone i don't know.. and i understand it's the same from their perspective, too.
.

Well the quest/raiding system doesn't need to be set up this way where it takes 40+ people 2-4 hours to kill a mob that drops nothing but just 1 epic quest part for 1 person. The fact that it was this way on LIFE doesn't mean it has to be.

So log in as a solo player for your 1 hour - and do your solo thing.
If you happen to stumble upon a pick group/raid - you do that, get something out of it and log off. ;)

[kokey98]

Well the quest/raiding system doesn't need to be set up this way where it takes 40+ people 2-4 hours to kill a mob that drops nothing but just 1 epic quest part for 1 person. The fact that it was this way on LIFE doesn't mean it has to be.

So log in as a solo player for your 1 hour - and do your solo thing.
If you happen to stumble upon a pick group/raid - you do that, get something out of it and log off. ;)

but, that's kind of the point i was making. you can only do your solo thing for so long before you cannot improve your character on your own. at that point if the server has no population... it's more like log in, can't accomplish what needs to be done, and then log out and do other things.

the only thing i meant to convey in that paragraph is it is a logical contradiction to make a solo server that requires groups for the important stuff. finding couple people is no different than finding 40 if they do not exist or are not common enough to rely on being there. some servers do the 2-3 people needed and if they average ~15-20 players i bet they can get away with it. let the course of the server dictate, not try to forcfe somethign that's not possible except in a dream.

(again we each have our own lives... it's not obligatory that the one other person who logs in helps me or i him. the comment about hte hour, or limited time available, was because i like to play a video game for that hour, not don't play a video game for an hour.)

[Mistmaker]

I think 15-20 is extreme. We average maybe 3 level 70s on during peak hours and those players have no problem doing the 2-3 player raid content on our server that averages 5 players online.

I think a lot of people have difficulty coming out of their comfort zone and reaching out to others to either help them advance or group with them to do the content available. They come online with a goal that they are going to do A, B, C then logoff or they have been on a bunch of other servers with a "partner" and choose not to contact anyone else to include them in their comfortable group. So if your not able to make that 70 group why not help that level 68?

I think many players think they have no time so they can only do certain things while online. I think this is an excuse to not reach out to others. If you look at how much time those people that say they don't have time are really online doing A, B, C, ...SOLO... they could have spent 2 minutes reaching out to others and doing content together with someone else.


but, that's kind of the point i was making. you can only do your solo thing for so long before you cannot improve your character on your own. at that point if the server has no population... it's more like log in, can't accomplish what needs to be done, and then log out and do other things.

the only thing i meant to convey in that paragraph is it is a logical contradiction to make a solo server that requires groups for the important stuff. finding couple people is no different than finding 40 if they do not exist or are not common enough to rely on being there. some servers do the 2-3 people needed and if they average ~15-20 players i bet they can get away with it. let the course of the server dictate, not try to forcfe somethign that's not possible except in a dream.

(again we each have our own lives... it's not obligatory that the one other person who logs in helps me or i him. the comment about hte hour, or limited time available, was because i like to play a video game for that hour, not don't play a video game for an hour.)

[The_Beast]

I think a lot of people have difficulty coming out of their comfort zone and reaching out to others

I have played on a server in the past that, at that time, had 23 players on, but none of them had any interest in grouping together. It almost seems, more and
more these days, it's not really about "time to play", it's more about people just wanting to do their own thing. I am even convinced that population no longer
plays a factor, or creates a hurdle in someone wanting to actually group. The desire for it has begun to dissolve and that /LFG tag will eventually become obsolete.

[tdanger84]

tune server for 6 man(properly geared) group and allow bots. players who want to solo can use bots, players who want to group can drop some bots in favor of their friends. everyone gets to do what they want, everyone's happy. why does it have to be one way or the other? restrict IP and take out raids so no one can make multiple groups or box if you want to prevent steamrolling.


if you want, toss in some OPTIONAL world bosses(yes I took that idea from your server Mistmaker =p ) with cool fluff items like cosmetic stuff, graphics, mounts, auras, whatever and let the people who want to group take them but the solo player wouldn't need them in order to progress.

grouping with real people should give you an extra edge, not create a minimum standard. example, a solo player of max level, lets say 70 in this case, should be able to take out whatever the max level boss is in that world, but a couple real players grouped can do it at 65 with slightly less gear. ALL players who want to play can do so in the way they like, the people who group just have an edge over the solos

[ChaosSlayerZ]

but, that's kind of the point i was making. you can only do your solo thing for so long before you cannot improve your character on your own. at that point if the server has no population... it's more like log in, can't accomplish what needs to be done, and then log out and do other things.

the only thing i meant to convey in that paragraph is it is a logical contradiction to make a solo server that requires groups for the important stuff. finding couple people is no different than finding 40 if they do not exist or are not common enough to rely on being there. some servers do the 2-3 people needed and if they average ~15-20 players i bet they can get away with it. let the course of the server dictate, not try to forcfe somethign that's not possible except in a dream.



Well then how about look at it this way - server has 3 different progression lines: for soloers, for groupers and for raiders - and each type of players follows his own goals. So all your important staff as soloer - is solo ;)
If you want move on to group thing - then you no longer on a solo path and requirements are different.

[kokey98]

I think 15-20 is extreme. We average maybe 3 level 70s on during peak hours and those players have no problem doing the 2-3 player raid content on our server that averages 5 players online.

I think a lot of people have difficulty coming out of their comfort zone and reaching out to others to either help them advance or group with them to do the content available. They come online with a goal that they are going to do A, B, C then logoff or they have been on a bunch of other servers with a "partner" and choose not to contact anyone else to include them in their comfortable group. So if your not able to make that 70 group why not help that level 68?

I think many players think they have no time so they can only do certain things while online. I think this is an excuse to not reach out to others. If you look at how much time those people that say they don't have time are really online doing A, B, C, ...SOLO... they could have spent 2 minutes reaching out to others and doing content together with someone else.

to the previous couple posts:

i'm open to trying anything that is inclusive - and speaking more in a generalized tone than a request for a new server.

I don't think there's 1 right way... and i am not criticizing different opinions of how to play the game either.

i'm actually enjoying one of the bot enabled servers right now. i ahve to kill to get gear, i don't level too fast but i'm not wallowing in the low levels for weeks or months etc... my only concern now is whether the perosn will keep it up for a long period of time :p

i know i can't get all of what i want when looking through the server list, but this one hits alot of the marks, so far. anytime i speak of an "ideal" it's not expected to be reached.

-----

i wrote this before the 2 previous posts or so... fyi.

i have no idea what the best "way" is. and that's relative to each individual owner's goal, too. regardless of that, some ways will be more likely to succed than others no matter what their goal is nor how much time they sink into it... a realistic perspective of all important factors is key.

who is playing? how often? how do they play? etc etc.. what proportions blah blah blah. most server configs simply aren't viable to play as they are set up ignoring the realities and repercussions of the answers to these questions, and those are the ones that cannot and will not last. (in addition to the more mundane sutff that's required to keep it running.. $$$/time etc..)

too often the theories discussed in this type of thread don't match reality :p you can want a certain type of server, but if the players aren't there it's a pipe dream. is 15-20 enough or too high for a threshold? i won't argue for or against that logic.. it's a # pulled out of the ether. although, i'm 99.9% certain a handful of random players cannot make anything but a solo server viable.

there's no one type of player. the players that play tons of hours will always be a different beast than those that play fewer. some group, some don't.. how it's setup won't change their preference. they can either co-exist with the others that play on that particular server or they cannot (ie likely won't play there anymore).

so, there's no right answer, therefore the most open and inclusive option is probably the best answer for long-term success. having more players around is better, even if some don't group much. despite how some feel about it... not wanting to group is not a contagious disease... it's not communicable. there are numerous other ways those types of player can contribute to the server. the more people involved, the more options available, the more likley people enjoy it.

I think incredibly silly stuff gets in the way of rational thought on this subject. this mostly applies to the players, but you see some militant stances from random server owner too.

e.g i don't get why if some don't like <insert whatever>, then they don't want others using it?

that's petty any way you slice it. only on a populated server would people step on other's toes, so it's mostly inconsequential how the next person plays the game. therefore, it's purely an emotional response, if there is no other rational cause for it. if there is a cause, then it doesn't fit this example.

e.g. i don't like boxing more than a few, but i don't get jealous about a guy boxing 50 toons. i'm a little jealous of what's required to run 50 toons, i mustl admit! but, that has nothign to do with "me/you" playing the game of EQ.

you could argue, well he just runs things over then i can't hunt there... well, with only a handful of people playing, you have many other options to choose from. if it's "The" npc of the last expansion available (or similar situation to context), that's always a bottle-neck without instancing. so no different, regardless. instad of thinking it through, people stop at ... "i wanted that ice cream! <cries>" ... "and my favorite cookie, which is just laying freely over there within reach isn't good enough!"

[Albator]

"e.g i don't get why if some don't like <insert whatever>, then they don't want others using it?"

Its the whole reason people play an mmo. Because everyone is on an equal playing field. If the playing field isn't equal then its broken. Its like a pacman top 10 scoreboard where some people are playing with an xbox controller and others are playing with an atari controller. There should be different scoreboards for people playing with one controller vs the other. In the same way there should be different servers for people playing EQ with one ruleset verses another.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

e.g. i don't like boxing more than a few, but i don't get jealous about a guy boxing 50 toons. i'm a little jealous of what's required to run 50 toons, i mustl admit! but, that has nothign to do with "me/you" playing the game of EQ.

As said above the issue in equal playfiled ;)

If server set up is group oriented, yet mass boxing is allowed, then 1 guy looking to play the group game finds himself completely alone and without a group, because no one really groups, but runs a box army. And that sort of defeats the whole purpose of a "Group server".
Even if we talking a server with thousands of player, where SOME people run a box army, then we have a different issue where couple people running boxes interfere with ability of others to play because they solo claim the content meant for a whole groups.

[mjbcb0717]

The best solo server right now is casual dreams it's actually balanced out were you can't blaze trough shit all the little edge things poru has you may look at it like oh this is going to be easy. Nah its not content might be scaled to solo but it's going to take you a bit to get to 65 then work on AA to do the custom world bosses and potime will take you several hours to clear I went back because there are no fun solo servers anymore besides this one. No PEQ no GM commands you still gotta run were you wanna go granted pok is open and there is a porter but only takes you to city's and small zones so you will need to work here to get some were nostalgia with a little kick I call it :)

[kokey98]

There's a fundamental difference in how we perceive reality.

inclusion provides the best probabilty for population, if people don't get emotional about things.

we are discussing play preferences, and excuding any type will reduce #s - i think that can be agreed upon, but not necesarily where it ends for each individual.

maybe that is the intention to reduce #s, nothing wrong with that, either. this isn't a "how-to" or "you should" this is simply discussing real motivations and working up from there, instead of a top-down inductive approach which leads to all sorts of fallacious reasoning being manufactured.

prefer a server anyway you want, but the assumptions/inferences some make are not causality. (everyone should be required to study "logical fallacies" in school) this isn't an reply to tell you to prefer somethign else, its to highlight that the real reasoning motivation is actually different than what is communicated.

even so, it doesn't have to change your mind, either... this is a video game which is about entertainment... if somethign is not fun, even if irrational about it, it is not enjoyable... that's normal. and since it's a video game, hurts no body.

with that said...

- the rules of the server do not cause behaviour... a server's rules may attract a certain type, but that is different. someone who won't group will still not group regardless of boxing/bots or any relavent rules. it is a pre-existing preference to play.

-behaviour is not a pathogen. it isn't a communicable disease. it may be true that the proportion is less/more than it was before, but that's not relevant, either. if i was to guess like that, i'd go a different route and blame the personality types that drawn to mmo's as the reason it's difficult to get a group.

-one person above clearly sees it as a competition between players... i don't in anyway.. i haven't even inspected a player in ... i can't recall doing so.. and likely an accident before i turned the click option off. this is a personal choice as to how to "be"... not somethng you should apply to others as universal truth and cause for this or that. this doesn't negatively impact others, so it probably should be as inclusive as possible for long-term success.

-it is an even playing ground, if all have the same options available. they are choosing to do it that way becaue they like it that way. (and vice versa)

so, if there's no rational reasons, what's the real motivation?

the fact that someone got 'more' while feeling they did less to achieve it. sounds more like jealousy (the word choices above hint at it too, not just in this thread but anytime someone tries to explain why boxing is unfair, ever).

there's no other reason to dislike it. (tried to stay general, this applies more so to bots, mercs, boxing)

the people that don't like boxing on small servers more than likely don't like others getting stuff that they cannot get or don't have, because there's no other rational reason on a small server. there is no leaderboard, there is no fierce competition for resources in the game etc. etc... so, if no toes are stepped on, all you have left are personal feelings about the matter.

-eq an even playing field? the game is inherently coded to be unequal in so many ways. i'd argue it's not the "spirit" of the game to begin with. this particular concept is neither logically for or against anything related. it might be a popular thuoght, but that doesn't make it a truth.

-Stratificaton of players is inevitable no matter what rules you choose. players being better than others, in regard to gear, is guarnateed to occur 100% of the time.

(i don't like to box, btw. it's 100% inconsequential in my experience if others on a small server box. eq has many options, and if it's the "last" dungeon, that's a bottleneck you can never avoid.)

[ChaosSlayerZ]

I will disagree with you on 2 points:

RE : numbers. When you say that excluding ANY type of player just causes reduction in number of players is only partially true. Let say we want solo/group no-box server. A guy comes alone and says - I want to group staff with my 12-box team. We say NO - he leaves. Did we just loose 12 players? No lost 1 guy who wanted to do group content solo - therefore he won't be grouping AND he would be competing for content. If we would let him Box - then everyone can box. Then suddenly people who were could box but were fine with grouping all start boxing - and group content becomes EXCLUSIVELY boxer thing.
Its not like I want to intentionally exclude players, but server goal is server goal - you can't have a PvP server when 99% of people don't want to PvP.


Another point is on "behavior is not a pathogen" . Oh this one is tricky. One MMO dev who worked early in his career on EQ, and then worked on Guild Wars 2 have said that "The game will FORCE players into a pattern and players will observe it". It doesn't matter what crazy rule set you come up with, if there is sufficient desire to play your game/server overall, the players will accept the entire rule set and push others to do so as well. Of course this is more relevant for actual MMOs that have tens of thousands of players, and not Emu server with 20 ;)


And finally - yes some players are better than others no matter if they solo, group, raid or box. Some play MUCH longer and therefore can get a lot of progress faster and may even burn out sooner. Those things are natural, but server NEEDS to chose a preferred mindset - if you allow EVERYTHING - then you will mostly get 12-boxers, and then that casual solo guy who likes to group occasionally won't even come because he will feel lost and alone ;)

[Albator]

Mabye you didn't like my last example kokey, lets look at another example where we liken an mmo to a real world. The world has rules. Laws of physics. No one gets to break these laws. If someone could just turn off gravity for himself that wouldn't be fair or natural.

Since an mmo tries to mimic a real world in many ways then there should be rules everyone is subject to. Since it is a game people want to choose a ruleset that they think is fun and want it to apply to everyone so it is fair and natural like a real world.

[The_Beast]

you'll also notice the only successful standard ones also do something to make the game a bit more solo-friendly (solo includes boxers, too).


I guess that would depend on the individual opinion of just exactly what defines a successful server on the standard list. EQTitan has been around several years,
and maintained the highest population on average. Anything else I see on that white list (today) with a population over 10, is not that old of a server. At least
not what I call older than recent. But it's a matter of whether you interpret successful as uptime, xx population or both.
In my opinion, if a player has a big desire to solo all content, they probably have no need to worry if a server has a population of any kind. You could be the only
one on a server and enjoy the game, unless you're OCD on the chat preference. I've literally seen "solo" players preach about MMO's being a social game, but no,
some might agree that "solo" and "mmo" do not go in the same sentence. If one is going to take the EQ out of Everquest, might as well leave the mmo behind and
concentrate on solo content.
When I read many of the comments of preferences for a solo friendly server, it seems to focus more on the high end of the game, doing raid bosses, etc., so I am
almost inclined to believe that if one created a solo server with instant access to the high end, you might see many of those soloers jump on for a day and get
their "fix". When you glance of some of those new server stats, you might notice the surge of players shortly after launch (aka. max players), while they bulldoze
the content before the population melts down to an average when the food is gobbled up faster than the kitchen can put out more.
For any dev to make a choice between solo and non-solo server, it's a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" scenario. There is hoards of players out there
that like that classic non-solo grind, you can see that in plain sight on the list, but they already have a place to eat, so any new servers now have to settle with
the leftovers if they are hungry. Hence, the small army of casual solo players. I noticed about 240 of them inhabiting the solo friendly servers earlier today.

[tdanger84]

the reason solo players comment more on the high end preferences is because that's usually the point in which we can no longer play and our inquiries are to see if they are doable or not. no one want to invest their time in 60-70+ level to find out they hit a wall and cant use their acquired gear and skills to take out the next hardest boss, or can only kill trash mobs. I disagree with the idea of instant access to high ends and the assertions that solo players want to bulldoze through everything. challenge is expected, just not impossibility.

it is clear that the player base is quite divided but one thing for sure is that we are all out here still beating this dead horse. so whatever server one makes, there will be people trying it out. go ahead and make your server of solo bosses with finely tuned bots. I can assure you that I will be there to at least give it a shot and I know that others will too.

[The_Beast]

I disagree with the idea of instant access to high ends and the assertions that solo players want to bulldoze through everything. challenge is expected, just not impossibility.

That makes an interesting point, but consider this example, (in theory), if you logged on to a server with content setup for that exact same classic grind like P99
up to, let's say level 55. Then after reaching 55, you are then eligible to spawn bots and start doing higher end mobs that are doable by soloing (with bots).
Does something like that fall into the "expected challenge" category ? That's not something within my goals, but the scenario presents a relevant concept.
I really like the whole idea of the bot system, only because it provides an grouping alternative that may not otherwise be available, without boxing. It does come
with a disadvantage though, which I am considering putting some effort into a solution for it. If a player spawns 5 bots, he may have just found himself a group,
but they come with no gear. You have to not only hunt for your own gear, but for the entire group you just joined. It's what I call unfair mechanics that way.
My initial intentions in "finely tuning" the bots is making an attempt to mirror player characters, especially with base stats. Just for example, I noticed if a
player rolls up a level 1 halfling warrior, you're looking at an AC of 31 to start. But it's bot counterpart has a base AC of 12.

[tdanger84]

sounds good to me. personally i really enjoy having systems to unlock bots rather than just getting them all at lvl 1. its one thing I enjoyed about ZippZipps server, you had quests to unlock them at various level intervals. I was playing around recently on Deadly Crusaders and it involves a quest system to unlock bots using tradeskills and level requirements. IMO an unlocking quest line system is a fun and rewarding way of obtaining the power needed to progress. And you are right, gearing is part of the challenge. i dont mind taking the extra time to gear out a group of bots if it mean I will be able to keep going. gearing is half the reason I play this game. my bank is always filled to the brim with everything i can collect from dungeons and I regularly hand it out to anyone that will take it. I would much rather use it to gear out my bot group than make 5 different alts to unload cool items on. killing that tough boss for that weapon upgrade or getting that lucky random drop is what this game is all about.

some of the other bot servers put merchants with defiant gear or such to gear out their bot armies but I would much rather just have increased drop rates on old world items and remove lore/no drop and lower rq lvls

[kokey98]

I just wanna say one thing, and off-topic, really... some replies missed something i mentioned as a preface to everything i said:

"maybe that is the intention to reduce #s, nothing wrong with that, either. this isn't a "how-to" or "you should" this is simply discussing real motivations and working up from there, instead of a top-down inductive approach which leads to all sorts of fallacious reasoning being manufactured."

ignore the "reduce #'s" portion.. that's not necessary, but it was copy/pasted. intention of the owner is their prerogative 100%.

the sole goal is not assumed to be population, but without some consistent level of pop. most won't leave their server open for long. end-users learn and change behavior because of that trend, too.

there are exceptions to that... i see some with 0 that have been running for years. i believe at least one of those a particular server owner also has 2-3+, and leaves the 0-one running for the occasional player. (which is exceptionally generous and comitted beyond any normal/reasonable standard)

what a nice guy, eh? and anyone else that doesn't take population personally and leaves their creation up as long as they do (any length) :p

i have fun dinking around on my local one (rarely, nothing playable if you need to fix encounters out-of-the-box install - no idea? lol), but i can see that being "enough" to keep one open on its own for someone more competent than i.

heh i may change my own conclusion.. a server owner's enjoyment is the strongest correlation to length a server will run :p

[The_Beast]

the sole goal is not assumed to be population, but without some consistent level of pop. most won't leave their server open for long.
i see some with 0 that have been running for years.

This says a lot about the "confilict of interest" that may occur between a new server and the player community, leaving no happy medium between John Doe
server dev and Jack-B-Nimble solo player. If one is putting an effort into the preferences of the public player base when developing a server, it's difficult to
even think about knowing what players do enjoy. When you look at all those (unsuccessful) "What are you looking for?" threads with maybe 10 replies out of
several hundred players, it leaves John Doe guessing at what he thinks may be a cool idea. It's not like you can rely on the polls for this campaign. Just roll
the dice and see what happens. The intentions and/or goals of John Doe wanting other players on his server, I guess, would vary. Some people would be
content with a small handful of players, while others may only be out to win a popularity contest, in which I advise people like that to see Shania, because,
"That don't impress-ah-me much" I don't think any less, or any more of a server that sits there with 0-5 players, than a server with 500 players. I would
actually respect and admire someone who would leave their server up with 0 population for a few years. It's not like you just opened a corner store, threw
up an open sign, and if no customers show up, you had to close the doors. It may be a different story when a server dev puts himself in a position with costs
incurred and relies on donations from players to help out, but I'm sure both the players and server owner are aware of the high risks of things going sour on
either end. On the bright side, having a 0-5 player count, a solo dev is not going to get "burnt out" running the server.

[atrayas]

I believe the biggest problem with servers in general, and I am guilty of this as well, are they are opened to quickly to the public and the devs change there original vision in order to please this current player base.

My advice for any up and coming server devs is to create a great foundation, go with your original vision and create enough content to keep players busy for at least 6 months before you even think of opening. Once you think you are ready invite a few people in for closed beta testing, once you get those kinks worked out, do an open beta test, track everyones account that participated then do a clean wipe of the characters table's and give out beta rewards upon your official launch.

As long as you are up front with all of this people will not get bent out of shape for losing a character, they just need to know going in that it is going to happen.

Far as the single player/group argument, well you can null that easily if you just take the time to learn more advanced perl/lua scripting. Allot can be done via scripting to keep things challenging for a solo player without inflating stats, hp, ac, min dmg, max dmg etc etc. If you want examples id be glad to share some of my work, just pm me here and ill give you my skype info.

You can also script in auto scaling and different sub events based on player count with perl/lua. It isn't that difficult, just take the time to actually learn and lean on these guy s around here like natedog or kinglykrab. You can learn how to do allot of unique encounters if you just take the time to learn.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

I believe the biggest problem with servers in general, and I am guilty of this as well, are they are opened to quickly to the public and the devs change there original vision in order to please this current player base.

My advice for any up and coming server devs is to create a great foundation, go with your original vision and create enough content to keep players busy for at least 6 months before you even think of opening. Once you think you are ready invite a few people in for closed beta testing, once you get those kinks worked out, do an open beta test, track everyones account that participated then do a clean wipe of the characters table's and give out beta rewards upon your official launch..



Pretty much this. Too many servers open up with "few customized zones" and "Adjusted XP rates" and people run out of things to do within 2 weeks.

Very few servers have that "VISION" worked up from ground up.

[javewow]

I dot loots