*LEGIT* Patcher question...

[Fez Ajerbazian]

I've got a question about the way the patcher works. I know 'patcher' has become a bad word with all the freaks in the general forum begging for what amounts to warez.

Now, I realize that sending a user a full copy of a VI executable is a bad thing. Bad on bandwidth, bad on storage and most of all illegal. My question is this:

Is sending the user a binary diff suitable for patching his executables a violation of the law? The patcher would just be providing information then on how the executables are different, not the actual executables. It would be up to the user to decide if they want to patch or not. The patches would of course have to be regenerated every EQLive patch.

I'm sorry if this has been hashed out before, but it just seems to me like if we're not sending the actual files, how are we at fault? We're just sending information about the files.

- Fez

[mangoo]

why is this in development forum?

[Fez Ajerbazian]

Ummm, so the developers can read it...

Unless you're lucky enough to have the right files lying around, you're not able to use the emu until something is done WRT the patcher. If you don't have the files you're SOL until a new version rolls which catches up to EQLive, and I'm guessing that won't be soon. The issues with the patcher will be handled by devs, so why shouldn't I post a design/legality question here to get an answer straight from the horses mouth?

As far as I'm concerned, the devs are the only ones here who know enough about what's going on to give a sane response as to whether the idea is even workable. If it is, then the devs are prolly the ones who will make it work.

Posting anything about the patcher in a general forum will just get another 400 people banned because they don't bother to read the part about 'don't ask for the files or give them to other people.'

That answer your question? I'm sorry if this doesn't belong here, but it doesn't seem to me like it doesn't belong here.

[Shawn319]

This thread is still going to turn into a free-for-all "patcher dont work, gimmie files" thread hehe... people search for the word "patcher" and aimlessly post their BS on every fricken thread they see.

[Fez Ajerbazian]

LOL! Well, you can lead a monkey to water but he still squeals when you give him a lobotomy... Unfortunately the bottom line is that short of catching up to EQLive or lobotomizing a couple thousand people, fixing the patcher is the only way to keep Shawn319 and Acolyte's sanity. Which was another reason I posted here. I feel your pain guys, I did a little work with Casey and Xylor a couple years back on SEQ when VI first started really messing with the encryption. I was the guy who wrote the first QDecoder module which backfilled spawns... Wound up having to leave because I just couldn't handle the trolls.

So, now that a couple of the right folks have read this... What are the thoughts? Where exactly does the law stop with the patcher? I happen to be one of the lucky ones who, for other reasons, has kept many copies of my full EQ directory. I'm fairly certain that a patcher client could be created which:

1) Receives a list of CRC hashes of most-recent known working files from a patch server.

2) Compares local file CRC hashes to the list.

3) Requests binary/text diffs for files that need changes.

4) Executes the changes when the user agrees with any terms that may appease the legal gods.

You would initially think that many, many diffs would have to be stored on the patch server; that the patch server would have to know how to get between two arbitrary versions of any particular file. In reality, you would only have to store the diff between the most recent EQLive client and the last version known to work with the emu. As long as the user on the other end can still patch to EQLive, they will always be working with a current version of the client.

The real question is whether it's illegal to send information about VI's files, even though we're not sending the actual files themselves. After all, a diff is useless without a file to patch it with.

- Fez

[Lurker_005]

As I understand it, SOME of the reasons the patcher was pulled was due to people patching to EQEmu, then live then EQEmu then live.... That adds up to LOTS of bandwidth! Another was all the problems people had with the patcher, their own fault, the design of the patcher, and the installer package (default directory and missing components). And finally Ethernalquest users using the patcher rather than host their own.

Hogie has mentioned the posability of releasing a new one that requires your board username and password to use it, as well as tracking if your patching over and over again. And of course checking to make sure you already have a different version of the files to begin with.

stuff like this (http://www.hackersquest.org/boards/viewtopic.php?t=3976) is why it was brought down, =/

EDIT: That and stuff like this (http://www.hackersquest.org/boards/viewtopic.php?t=4068)

Look at the EDIT: portion of mine, =P

[Memener]

lol i though they were dead

Since you are playing the 'delete post' game, can I do it too? =P

[Memener]

??????

[Shawn319]

As I understand it, SOME of the reasons the patcher was pulled was due to people patching to EQEmu, then live then EQEmu then live.... That adds up to LOTS of bandwidth! Another was all the problems people had with the patcher, their own fault, the design of the patcher, and the installer package (default directory and missing components). And finally Ethernalquest users using the patcher rather than host their own.

Hogie has mentioned the posability of releasing a new one that requires your board username and password to use it, as well as tracking if your patching over and over again. And of course checking to make sure you already have a different version of the files to begin with.


I think the new patcher should only let each user download the files 2 times. After that, there should be absolutely NO excuse for not backing up the files onto a CD or some other storage medium.


"Error: You have exceeded your download quota. Please revert to the backup you made. If not, TOOOOOOO BAAAAADDDDDDD"

And if they install it on a new comp... or format drive c:?

[Shawn319]

And if they install it on a new comp... or format drive c:?

thats why you back it up.

[kathgar]

Yes, binary diffs would be good.. the problem is getting good binary diffs.. preferably in some OSS package.. crackz0ring RTPatch wouldn't help much =P

[vetoeq]

I was thinking on this and came up with something that might be even easier to implement. How about just requiring a valid E-Mail address to patch with 1 patch allowed per email address. I'm not sure of the EQemu account struture and what work has been done around it, but keeping a simple list of legit emails to test against seems fairly trivial. This would allow people to patch more than once since almost everyone has multiple email addresses, but it would put a limit on how many times people patched.

It seems this would keep people from doing the Live -> Emu -> Live shuffle knowing that they only got one patch per email address.

[u2mad]

Yeah, but then you might have people going and signing up for a bunch of free e-mail accounts to keep patching.
No, it doesn't make sense, but some idiots think that's a good idea.

[vetoeq]

True, they might just do that...but each one of those signups takes time and it is time that the USER has to spend to patch and not time the DEVS need to spend coding "patch allowance" code.

I don't know what the main bandwidth hog is, but if it's people who patch from live to emu 5 or 6 times a day as they jump back and forth then the time to sign up for each one of those email accounts would build up. I would think that the annoyance of having to do the signin for each of those would become more of a pain than doing a CTRL-C/CTRL-V on their Everquest directory and burning the 2GB and 3-4minutes once.

[Shawn319]

Yeah, but then you might have people going and signing up for a bunch of free e-mail accounts to keep patching.
No, it doesn't make sense, but some idiots think that's a good idea.


You cant register using a free e-mail service.. if you know of one that we have not banned yet, please send a
PM to me or to hogie so we can ban it.

You cant register using a free e-mail service.. if you know of one that we have not banned yet, please send a
PM to me or to hogie so we can ban it.

... dunno, maybe you should just ban AOL too?

[u2mad]

You cant register using a free e-mail service.. if you know of one that we have not banned yet, please send a
PM to me or to hogie so we can ban it.
Hmm, didn't think about that one considering I didn't try my hotmail account. Although I guess that one isn't free anymore.
hmm......
the main ones that come to mind are yahoo and mailcity. I know I've seen some other ones around but the best thing to do for that is get on google and just type in free e-mail or something similar. You guys probably have a good list going already though.

[pepsi_phreak]

:lol: i just got back into this lol and i lost old copy of eq but im not gonna runaround cryin cause it was my own fault
patcher is bad for these guys cause they gotta pay for that bandwith that people leach from
just ogtta wait for recient EQ support and i am right now making a 4th of july backup copy of eq with all expansions and the veksar zone
that way when the emu catches up ill be ready then
you guys are doin a good job up there helpin us run our own servers for a lan party ect.
keep it rockin and keep america free :)



DEATH TO VOX

ps. anyone want to help me creat a db to put vox and naggy both in freeport:) and have then not able to boot ya out if your over lvl 52 :)
i wanna solo them when i get my server up lol

[icon]

LOL it is nearly impossible to ban all the possible free E-Mail places out there, because there are so mind-numbingly many that it's insane. I could right now, without thinking hard, post a hundred different E-Mail addresses all free that would undoubtably work fine in registering to these forums.

For example, I myself use http://wi.zzn.com for web-based E-Mail, it's free, I highly doubt it's been banned here, etc etc etc.

Not to mention all the ones I could use mail forwarding with... make a free website at Virtualave.net and suddenly I have as many E-Mails as I want. Anything@mysite.virtualave.net and AnythingElse@mysite.virutalave.net all would forward to anything I wanted it to, including hotmail or yahoo or zzn. And virtualave is definately not the only site like this out there.

Then again, now that I think about it, you guys can just stay up-to-date with people that sign up with your forums. Just every so often look through the E-Mail addresses people sign up with, find a few you've never heard of before, and go to the site to see if they are free or forwarding or what... then add that mail provider to the ban list.

- Icon

[xXToilet_DuckXx]

i'm sorry for being a newbie and not knowing a lot about eqemu, but i think the reason free e-mail addresses were banned was because they didn't want tons of people making multiple accounts right? (i could be wrong)

The problem with contacting your ISP and making a "free" account with them (i dont think you pay extra but you still have to pay for the internet), and then you give your e-mail address to eqemu, there's a large possibility that if eqemu gets sued, they can hand over this list of e-mail addresses provided by ISP's that sony can track. Once sony finds out who leeched off thier game and servers, they will also sue the individual gamers.

That's why I TRY to keep all my info confidential so i don't get caught :lol: So i was just wondering how we can keep our confidentiality with these rules.

[Shawn319]

Hogie would never give away a list of e-mail addresses lol.. the second there was a CHANCE sony was about to ask for them hogie would ditch the hard drive into the fireplace (if he has one lol).

The main reason to require a legit e-mail address is so people dont make 20 accounts per person (to limit EQEmu logins, and to prevent banned people from "EASILY" getting back on).

We know it wont stop everyone but its a step in the right direction.

Any loser can signup to hotmail or yahoo.

[xXToilet_DuckXx]

ok, so what happens if you decide to ban all e-mail addresses from www.uknowwho.com (it's just an example). will all the people who currently use an e-mail address from that website be cancelled? or will there be no more new accounts made with that website?

[xXToilet_DuckXx]

ack! it turned into a link! don't go there!!!!! I don't know what lies behind it :oops:

[Shawn319]

ok, so what happens if you decide to ban all e-mail addresses from www.uknowwho.com (it's just an example). will all the people who currently use an e-mail address from that website be cancelled? or will there be no more new accounts made with that website?

No, existing users are ok. it just prevents new users from signing up with that e-mail providor.

[Paglioni]

I think a simple solution exists...
limit the patch server to 10 connections and 3kb/sec for each.

in this way, people may wait one time the queue and download time, but certainly they will not do it a second time...

and you will have free bandwidth for your site :)

sorry for my english

[kathgar]

The simple solution is for people to not be morons. This would entail a few possible things.

1) Have 2 EQ directories
2) Patch ONCE for eqemu from live, when you run live stop it from auto downloading.. look at list and backup the files
Then backup the live files.. switch as needed

[Paglioni]

that's ok.. but
what for new users?
they can

1)use the eqemu patcher
2)don't use eqemu

there are no other choices for them (like me)

if you give us a way to download the files, even with slow bandwidth, we can enjoy this emulator.

[OverKills]

Or you can shut up and wait a few weeks for the next release. Which if you haven't figured out by now, won't need the patcher.

[a_Guest03]

Jeez, how many times do we have to say it?

Just wait a few weeks! If you look at the screenshots page, you'll see that Merth has froggies. Frogs = LoY. LoY = new server. It won't be long guys. They already did the hardest stuff.

Read the huge yellow link in my signature.

[Shawn319]

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE FILES: YOU ARE SCREWED.

WAAAAIIIIITTTTTT