Just curious as to legality....

[Sourcekode]

I had been reading your front page where you state that you will not allow the posting or hints to links of files. Recently I had come across some controversy over a similar topic (of legality) so I read a few copies of sony's EULA and came across a sentance I found intresting:

9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to change Game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Game characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.

I would like to put an emphasis on sentance #2 where it says;
"You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators."

Now dosent this sentance state that the emulator, in itself, is illegal.

Just curious.

~

[Neville1355]

That sentence was added in FAR after eqemu was created, therefore it can only legally stop FUTURE emu's from being made.

[yoru]

they may not like it but theres nothing they can do about it right now. if there was dont u think they would have done it by now :P

[Merth]

I don't know about the legality - it's probably best to consult a lawyer on the issue if you are concerned.

However, this does highlight another legal issue I have been wanting to cover: I have declared this to be a nose-picking free web site. It is therefore "illegal" for you to be picking your nose while reading this web site.

Watch those fingers, people!

I'm no lawyer, but my guess is that Sony currently don't see EQEmu as a threat to their revenue and it is not in their interest (financially) to test the legality of it in a court of law. If they saw their player base declining and thousands of people playing on public EQEmu servers, they may think differently. Also, if anyone was benefitting financially from the Emu, that may attract the attention of the lawyers as well.

EDIT: Search google with the keywords 'emulator law precedent'

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=emulator+law+precedent

I only scanned the first few hits, but it seems a pretty grey area

EDIT2: You may have seen it already, but there is a post in the FAQ forum by Hogie titled 'What do Sony think about this project'

http://www.eqemulator.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9018

[Sourcekode]

Ok, that makes sense. Thank you for the intelligent replies by the way. Its nice to see that. Aside from the nose picking conundrum (merth).

If anyone has an idea of what changed so that I may attempt to fix my own EQemu DR2 to work after the Aug 26 patch, please let me know. Kinda going through withdraws. Back to hurry up and wait on DR3.

~

[killspree]

It's simply in there so if someone ever comes forward saying "OMG I JUST GOT HACKED BECAUSE I PLAYED ON EQEMU" they can say, sorry can't help you there, and oh grats ban.

[Rogean]

I don't know about the legality - it's probably best to consult a lawyer on the issue if you are concerned.

However, this does highlight another legal issue I have been wanting to cover: I have declared this to be a nose-picking free web site. It is therefore "illegal" for you to be picking your nose while reading this web site.

Watch those fingers, people!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Farrenz]

Now dosent this sentance state that the emulator, in itself, is illegal.


Violation of Sony's EULA is not Violation of federal law, thus EQemu is not illegal.

[Windcatcher]

The worst they can do is call it breach of contract and terminate your account. For those people who don't have/don't want an EQLive account, boo hoo.

WC

[Hardy]

Sony can't find out that you play on an emulator unless you go on EQLive and start shouting the URL of this site, or anything else. Then you can kiss your ass goodbye. I play EQLive, they have no idea what server or my characters name or my account name 8) This is not illegal, plain and simple.

[afrospy]

oops

[DeletedUser]

It's illegal to use the emulator in terms of the Eula. Breaking the eula they are allowed to use punishment on you to a certain extent.

Such as the worst they can do is ban your account and track your IP so they'll know what accounts you have, go through what other accounts are using your credit card.

This usually works well for them too, cause they'll catch others. If you're using a friends account when you're talking about the emulator online and how you played it, then you just got all your friends accounts banned. (possibly, they are allowed to, but I really doubt they'll go through them all).

They have no way of finding out you've been on the emulator through online unless they start to use illegal things, which in that case, you can sue them.

To the bottom line, don't mention anything about it online, and don't worry about any legal issues.

[Windcatcher]

"It's illegal to use the emulator in terms of the Eula"

Not illegal, but violation of contract. You're not breaking any law, just the terms of the contract. As such they are free to terminate service. They can't sue you nor can they have you arrested. Of course, they can terminate you service for any other reason they like as well.

[Kaelon]

I'm an intellectual property lawyer, and from having examined the EULA, I can say very confidently that you risk breach of contract, which is subject to civil fines, and statutory infringement of copyrighted material, which is subject to criminal prosecution. However, in the latter case, often the copyright holder has to bring charges against the individuals responsible.

Because EQemu is more of a hobby and not intended to compete with or even remotely replace EverQuest (because an average EverQuest server consists of numerous different machines hosting various zones to support thousands of players), it is unlikely that SOE would pursue litigation. However, if they begin to suspect willful (i.e., intentional) statutory fraud on the part of the EQemu developers, they could very well make valiant moves to shut them down.

Hi Kaelon,

Can you cite any cases where developers of emulators similar to EQEmu have been succesfully prosecuted ? I did search Google a while back with no luck, but I know Google is not the definitive guide to the law :) ... would be interesting to read about legal precedent in this area.

Cheers,

[Merth]

In case SOE happens to be reading this thread, I wanted to throw this idea out there..

If you wanted to shut down EQEMu, you could probably spend a ton of money on litigation and maybe end up shutting down the project. But there's a much cheaper way to accomplish the same thing! Hire them as game programmers :P

[Rogean]

I'm an intellectual property lawyer, and from having examined the EULA, I can say very confidently that you risk breach of contract, which is subject to civil fines, and statutory infringement of copyrighted material, which is subject to criminal prosecution. However, in the latter case, often the copyright holder has to bring charges against the individuals responsible.

Because EQemu is more of a hobby and not intended to compete with or even remotely replace EverQuest (because an average EverQuest server consists of numerous different machines hosting various zones to support thousands of players), it is unlikely that SOE would pursue litigation. However, if they begin to suspect willful (i.e., intentional) statutory fraud on the part of the EQemu developers, they could very well make valiant moves to shut them down.

Sorry, I must be blind... Where is the copyright infrigment?

[Kaelon]

Where is the copyright infrigment?

Creating an emulator, being part and parcel of the tactic of reverse engineering software, is widely considered as infringing upon the proprietary rights of the copyright holder, and is an accessory to copyright infringement. Statutory parameters are outlined very clearly in 17 USC 106.

It's also willful trademark dilution, trademark infringement, and, "unfair competition", which falls under the DMCA punitive guidelines.

[mattmeck]

Why dont people just read in the FAQ section what SOE thinks of this project?

http://www.eqemulator.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9018

[Scorpious2k]

I promised myself I would stay out of this one... and I tried.

You can patent an invention or algorythm. You can servicemark or trademark a name. And you can copyright an published work (including a computer program).

A copyright means no one can copy and claim as their own, your published work. Even changing it slightly (remember some of that homework you turned in?) does not remove the fact it is plagiarism.

However, a completely unique work, which may perform the same function/contains the same information can be copyrighted as a unique and different work. It is also possible to publish a work of a collection of works, copyrighted by others, and to get a copyright on that.

If you want more details I suggest you look up the Bourne Convention, which is the international agreement under which copyright is covered.

On the subject of emulators and legal cases, I came across this: http://www.worldofspectrum.org/EmuFAQ2000/AppendixB.htm

As for DMCA... it is contrary to international agreements and contains components which are clearly unconstitutional. Don't look for it to survive in the courts.

http://anti-dmca.org/
http://slashdot.org/features/01/06/06/131232.shtml
http://www.ectnews.com/perl/story/20291.html
http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/archives/000002.html[/i]

[Rogean]

However we are not distributing or displaying or running ANY files that belong to Sony, so therefor we are not violating any copyright laws. We merely develope the software it takes for someone to use the files theyv already received from sony themself to connect to our servers.

[Scorpious2k]

However we are not distributing or displaying or running ANY files that belong to Sony, so therefor we are not violating any copyright laws. We merely develope the software it takes for someone to use the files theyv already received from sony themself to connect to our servers.

Exactly my point. It is a unique work produced without access to (and therefore you could not have reverse engineered it) the servers eqemu emulates.

The emulator is fully legal and is even copyrightable on its own.

[Myra]

(I'm 12 so if I sound stupid I blame it on my age.)
I don't think Sony sees us as a threat at all. More like something that draws atention to there own game. Eqemu doesen't realy go against there copyright version. It may be baised on eq but it isn't an eq clone. It actuly makes some people by there cds that woulden't have if they had to pay every month to play the game. They make more money and they know that, besides There's nothing they can do about us or they would have. Anyway thats my two cent idea on the subject I hope it wasen't that bad. I didn't read the whole topic so I have no clue if you guy already proved me wrong. I'm leaving before I sound any more stupid. Bye

[Myra]

As for DMCA... it is contrary to international agreements and contains components which are clearly unconstitutional. Don't look for it to survive in the courts.

http://anti-dmca.org/
http://slashdot.org/features/01/06/06/131232.shtml
http://www.ectnews.com/perl/story/20291.html
http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/archives/000002.html[/i]
(Just for the record I had this sig before this was posted.)

[redneck0ne]

in my own personal opinon i agree is those saying the EQEmu is NOT in violation of copyright laws. Sony produces a game (program) and EQEmu alters it to an extent. The EQEmu releases it for free to others to enjoy. EQEmu is basicly a product of the skill and imagination of the Devs running it. Its not in any way tied tot he EQLive servers or game. There for it would be logical to say that EQEmu to EQLive is like buying a car or truck, changeing it (body or engin mods) and letting your friends ride around in it for enjoyment. PLus, as was stated before, the "rules" were stated in the EULA, meaning that IF they wanna call EQEmu a violation of the EULA then they hold the right to cancel your EQLive account and ban your IP or credit card info so that you cant get back on. But like i said, EQEmu is F-R-E-E, there for its not takeing revenue from the o'so poor and strugleing company of Sony (sarcastic for you people who are readin this in the mornin and yer brains aint awake). Well, that was my feelings on the subject and i personally hate what they did to Napster and would be VERY highly ticked at SOE if they tried to do the same kinda thing to EQEmu. blah blah blah....thats enough now, BUH BYE :)

[a_Guest03]

I don't think the legality is what you would even worry about. Lots of illegal stuff goes on because people don't have the time and/or money to care.

In accounting, we learned that inventory shrinkage happens due to spoilage, theft, loss of control. The amount of money it takes to control this is greater than the cost of the loss. So you just write it off, instead of going on a crusade to end it.

When eqemu pulls enough PERCENTAGE of SOE or EQ's bundle, they will come for us. It's a matter of being scared of the numbers. I guarantee that Sony makes over $1M/year off EQ. I guarantee that we don't threaten 1% of that.

The costs of the lawyers, and bad PR, and controls to remove every emulator website and prosecute every user is greater than writing off the costs. So why worry until your numbers reach a more frightening state. At about 3% take on their numbers, they may come for us. That's minimum (and a tiny minimum at that) $30k/year lost. Add up every eqemu user who is active. Take into account that they BOUGHT the game, and didn't buy the service. Even if all 30000 users cancelled their accounts, we'd still barely be damaging their profit.

With all the infighting among the eqemu crowd over the past year and a half that I've been following eqemu, I would never have expected it to get this far. I also don't expect it to get attacked by Sony until it is near completion, at which time, it will be too late to stop. Attacking us now would be a crapshoot. Would we have succeeded in emulating live EQ? Would it have competed against the established product. Would it have damaged Sony more than it helped it? I doubt that all of those conditions will be met, even after we're done. So why worry about getting sued. If I were Sony, I wouldn't mess with such a small potatoes group anyway. I'm proud that everyone feels so powerful, but we're close to insignificant to Sony, and I'm glad to be under radar.

[Doomhead]

Ok here's my 2 cents on this.

As stated before, eqemu is unique code made by the wonderful devs and is not copying sony's server code. Eqemu is simply making their code work with sony's code. I paid my hard earned cash for the game itself and I feel I have the right to use the emu if I don't want to pay for a monthly subscription fee.

[DeletedUser]

I don't think the legality is what you would even worry about. Lots of illegal stuff goes on because people don't have the time and/or money to care.

In accounting, we learned that inventory shrinkage happens due to spoilage, theft, loss of control. The amount of money it takes to control this is greater than the cost of the loss. So you just write it off, instead of going on a crusade to end it.

When eqemu pulls enough PERCENTAGE of SOE or EQ's bundle, they will come for us. It's a matter of being scared of the numbers. I guarantee that Sony makes over $1M/year off EQ. I guarantee that we don't threaten 1% of that.

The costs of the lawyers, and bad PR, and controls to remove every emulator website and prosecute every user is greater than writing off the costs. So why worry until your numbers reach a more frightening state. At about 3% take on their numbers, they may come for us. That's minimum (and a tiny minimum at that) $30k/year lost. Add up every eqemu user who is active. Take into account that they BOUGHT the game, and didn't buy the service. Even if all 30000 users cancelled their accounts, we'd still barely be damaging their profit.

With all the infighting among the eqemu crowd over the past year and a half that I've been following eqemu, I would never have expected it to get this far. I also don't expect it to get attacked by Sony until it is near completion, at which time, it will be too late to stop. Attacking us now would be a crapshoot. Would we have succeeded in emulating live EQ? Would it have competed against the established product. Would it have damaged Sony more than it helped it? I doubt that all of those conditions will be met, even after we're done. So why worry about getting sued. If I were Sony, I wouldn't mess with such a small potatoes group anyway. I'm proud that everyone feels so powerful, but we're close to insignificant to Sony, and I'm glad to be under radar.

Well said.

[Windcatcher]

and statutory infringement of copyrighted material

I've seen this accusation on these boards before. I'm unwilling to accept it until someone points out exactly which material is being infringed and how (read: which sections of which statute are being violated). Since EQEmu in no way involves distributing SOE copyrighted material, you can rule that right out. What, then, does that leave? Specifics, please.

if they begin to suspect willful (i.e., intentional) statutory fraud

This translates to me that the EQEmu team must make a good faith effort to make sure that visitors to the site and users of the program are adequately informed that this is *NOT* EQLive, nor is it connected to EQLive in any way. I've seen several posts on various forums from people who were obviously confused about that point. Now, if that's not what is meant by the quote above, I'm sure we all would appreciate clarification of the point. In any case, I for one would like to see some clear language on the website, the forums, and with the distributed program that make this fact clear. I don't like seeing people confused about EQEmu if it's at all avoidable, and anyway, better safe than sorry and all that...

[GentleIksar]

Well here's my opinion on the matter. SoE really cannot press charges on EQEmu, because if you notice, most everywhere on the Emulator you can see that it says "EverQuest is copyrighted to EverQuest, Inc." Therefore, they are not calling EverQuest their own game, nor are they calling the servers the "real servers". The fact is, there wouldn't be a point for them to terminate your account or prosecute EQEmu. Terminating a paying customer? That's baaaad karma for SoE, which is just what they DON'T want right now. I know they'd do it anyway, but if you're paying to play on EQLive isn't it the same as paying to play EQ on a different lineage of servers? Heck, you're still PAYING aren't you? If your EQLive is terminated, then you play EQEmu, and that's all they could really do, in my eyes at least...

[DeletedUser]

Actually, they wouldn't care. If you read the posts before you. Killing most of the accounts here wouldn't even hurt their profit.

[halforc]

so is it safe to play or what? :?

[a_Guest03]

Yes.