I'm a cynic

[Ostaf]

Is the whole eqemu/eqlive update race not doomed to failure? Someone tell me if my logic is flawed here. EQLive updates, smart players don't download the patch, EQEmu eventually follows suit, smart players must therefore now download the patch in order to play on the newly updated EQEmu servers, at which time EQLive may or may not have released ANOTHER update which could potentially wreck upon the EQEmu and all work that was just done. Don't get me wrong, I think you guys are doing a good, and very cool thing here. Anywho, I just installed EQ, so I guess I'm SOL until 2007 (hehe, 2007. Dat be funny)

Now that I think about it, though, how poorly must EQ have been written if the server has to change everytime an update is released. Please, someone explain that to me. I've been writting professional business software for about 4 years now, and never had such an issue.

[devn00b]

okay easy nuff here.


EQ is always changing things to save bandwith, also they make a change on their internal servers it works they say hey Ship it...so you get the patch...along with 50k other peeps..then they realize WHOA WTF opcode 0x002 is sending 512bytes of data not 128. so look at all that wasted data X 50k peeps. so what do they do? they repatch and change the size of the opcode. now at this point most peeps think " so? " well that one while minor change also makes EQEMU have to change say the struct for 5 different things. hence the constant battle.

Story above same for new expansions/added features.

Eqemu has been here a good LONG while i dont see it going the way of EthernalQuest any time soon.

Btw Good 1st post Welcome to EQEMU

[Ostaf]

I've got two eyes and half a brain. Having read some of the old (and recent) posts, it's obvious why you guys are all a bunch of asses.

What you're saying makes sense, sort of. Makes more sense to me that once you've hammered out your basic opcodes, you don't change them. Maybe you add more for more features. If you update the server then you need to update the client, but updating the client shouldn't mean the server needs to be updated with these new opcodes if it doesn't intend to use them. The old ones should be completely backwards compatible. I dunno, maybe there's more going on in a MM game like Everquest than can be handled by a small collection of set codes. I'd imagine when dealing with 50k users every bit counts, so it's worth it to cut where they can, but cricky, it's been 4 or 5 years, hasn't it? The networking protocol should be perfect by now.

[DeletedUser]

They still have bugs from beta unfixed. If they find a problem and change it, it could affect and break 50 more things. It's ongoing for everything they fix.

It's like a building. You build a house and decide you want to add another room. You go in an add it, but then you find out theres problem with the wiring. You then fix the wiring, but then you notice theirs a problem with the lights. You hope everything works fine the first time, but you always have the chance of breaking something and having to fix it. Which then could cause other problems.

So having a perfect game with updates and expansions, then they would have to do some big beta testing. :roll:

[devn00b]

What you're saying makes sense, sort of. Makes more sense to me that once you've hammered out your basic opcodes, you don't change them.

Yeah that would be great..if we could WE dont change them SoE does and so we have to do the same


Maybe you add more for more features.


We realy cant " add " op codes..since the client would have no fucking clue what they where and would just drop them


If you update the server then you need to update the client, but updating the client shouldn't mean the server needs to be updated with these new opcodes if it doesn't intend to use them. The old ones should be completely backwards compatible.


When sony changes the client its to work with their copy of the server, so why would it be backwards compatable? that would break the whole point behind the eq patch server. and when SoE changes their client what do we have to do? We have to update our server.


it's been 4 or 5 years, hasn't it? The networking protocol should be perfect by now.

HAHA thats the funnest thing i have heard on this board since i started with eqemu LONG time ago. thanks for making my day

[Ostaf]

When I said you, I didn't mean you guys in particular, I was using it in the global, when a programmer writes a generic program, one would hope they have the basic pipeline worked out so that upgrades can layer on top of the original code without changing the existing.

If a new feature is added to a server, that must be added to the client, true, but if the server doesn't use that particular feature, there should be no need to update it to be able to use it. It's like the ice maker in a fridge. Maybe you use it. Maybe you don't. You shouldn't have to re-install your oven if you decided to get a new fridge which may or may not have an ice maker. That's all I'm saying.

That rolls into what I was talking about with the 4 or 5 years comment. In my mind, the original opcodes should have been figured out and refactored to be as small as possible before release. Everything beyond is just icing, and will indeed need testing as it goes, but whatever happened to those original opcodes? If I'm understanding you correctly, they've been changed since release. Now, if I came back with my last project, and told the bank I sold it to that the network protocol was actually transfering twice as much as was required and needed to be changed, you can bet your ass I'd have a lawsuit on my hands, especially after 4 years.

[Merth]

whatever happened to those original opcodes? If I'm understanding you correctly, they've been changed since release.

They change with nearly every EQ patch. There's several guesses on why this happens, the two I lean towards are versioning and intrusion deflection.

Now, if I came back with my last project, and told the bank I sold it to that the network protocol was actually transfering twice as much as was required and needed to be changed, you can bet your ass I'd have a lawsuit on my hands, especially after 4 years.
I doubt this is a fair comparison, based on comments made by Ryan Elam on the sigil forums. Every now and then, he'll have a comment about how they implemented the network layer for EQ. What likely happened was a rush to get the core product out the door ("time to market"). After time to market has been achieved, cutting costs transparently is generally a good idea, and SOE agrees.

Furthermore, the code has evolved as the game has evolved. For example, items now accept augments. I doubt the original code was built to handle this feature.

There's a lot we can debate about on the EQ product, but there's nothing we can do to change how the SOE client and server talk to each other, so we just adapt and move on.

[Ostaf]

You sure we can't just keep debating this? It's the most interesting conversation I've had in months.

[Nova_Blaze]

The code is extreamly shakey especally after exp. Sony is trying so hard to meet a release date and doesnt care if it is finished or not. They think they will just fix it later, when durring the time the bug or whatever is out people are getting PO that they keep loosing there stuff, falling through walls, getting no loot form a mob ect.

[Scorpious2k]

The code is extreamly shakey
Sony is trying so hard to meet a release date and doesnt care if it is finished or not. They think they will just fix it later

Microsoft took over Sony???

[mattmeck]

ROFL, It seems like it sometimes dont it.

[flyrken]

Sing it Merth!

That is the truth and nothing but the truth, you stated there.

Transparent fixes to lower points of service, and by the way keep the profits from the savings. Sony does it with all products, from the walkman to their EQ and SOE. I loved this practice when I was first introduced to it and saw it inside the Betamax VCR's.

Betamax what? Find here: ---> http://www.urbanlegends.com/products/beta_vs_vhs.html

Open a first run of one of their hardware products and note the revision on the PCB. Open a newer manufactured date of said product and note the revision (also notice the board changed and less population of transistors and circuits.) Saving a dollar per device is huge with quantities they move.

Same with SOE bandwidth which I believe helped satisfaction for dialup. It also enabled dialup users to get better at dual boxing. :)


EOF

[Nova_Blaze]

*shudders at the mintion of Microsoft taking over sony. :shock:

Lets hope this never happens. Why i use a Mac When i can help it