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  #1  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:42 PM
Steel
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Default Stonewall and Shielding

I play on the EZ server and since the wipe and restart shielding has ceased to work and to my understanding Stonewall is shielding and its not working either.Im looking for a fix for this without the serverops losing all the custom content they added.Any help would be greatly appreciated.Ty
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  #2  
Old 02-27-2008, 08:57 AM
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trevius
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You probably want to post about this on the EZ forums. Most likely, he is running a newer version of the Emu and may need to adjust his "min damage" on mobs. The range between min and max damage has to be much higher now.

For example, I have to set min damage to around 400 and max around 3000 and set the mob STR to 500+ for raid trash mobs on my server. Those settings cause players to be hit for anywhere from 400 to about 1400 if they have decent AC.

The thing with the latest Emu releases is that minimum damage from a mob is ALWAYS enforced. It doesn't matter if you have high shielding, high AC, max AAs, and are using stonewall. If the mob lands a hit on you (other than a kick or bash), it will always be at least the minimum damage set on that mob.

I finally upgraded my server and found that my higher level custom NPCs were always hitting for the exact same amount. I checked my tables and they were hitting for the min damage every time. The reason for this was that players were able to mitigate the max hits to be lower than the min hits. So, if I had set a mob to min for 1200 and max for 1700, the player might mitigate that 1700 to only actually take 1000 or so dmg. But, since the min damage is always enforced now, the player will always be hit for 1200.

I don't really remember live having a forced min damage like this, but it has been a while lol. I think the way it is now is probably the best way to do it, but it is going to take MUCH more work to balance an entire zone of mobs now. You now have to balance the mobs min/max with their STR on a mob-by-mob basis. Then you still have to test how hard the NPC will be hitting players with around the AC that you expect players to have for fighting in that zone. It would be nice to have a chart, LOL. Maybe I will try to work on something like that if I ever get the time. Since STR seems to completely control how hard a mob will actually hit now, and min/max are just limits of it's range, it would be nice if you could just set min/max both to 0 and only have to adjust STR to set how hard mobs hit.
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  #3  
Old 02-27-2008, 10:41 AM
Steel
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Sad part of what you said is this.Reports are showing casters out tanking Plate classes.Monks are better tanks than anything right now as they can avoid most inc damage.As a warrior i tested it nekked and was taking the same dps as i was full geared and buffed.So what point is gear?Guess we only need worry bout HP and avoidance now as AC is useless.

This cripples all tank classes.Plate classes cant put out the dps chain and leather classes can.Lets not even start with paladins.That took all the defensive side of plate classes away--which is what they are disigned for.So they are useless now.Some balancing really needs to be redone.Until then i'll be duoing my monk and wizzy as they are top dog atm--the rest are basicly useless compared.
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  #4  
Old 02-27-2008, 12:24 PM
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Originally when I upgraded, I left all of the rulesets the same, and I think that was part of the initial issue causing AC on both players and npcs to be completely out of wack. Last night, I enabled one of the new rulesets called Combat:UseIntervalAC and I set it to true. That rule is what actually makes AC work as it should work.

Once I made that change, I immediately noticed a difference in how AC was working for NPCs and players. I was able to adjust the NPCs' AC in most of my custom zones, and it seemed to help get the server closer to "normal" again. Players are now able to land hits more often and land them for more damage.

The damage still isn't as high as it was before, but that isn't a huge issue. This should bring melee and spell casters more in-line with each other at least for now. I can always adjust mob HPs so encounters still take the same amount of time as before. This also means I can make newer weapons with much higher DPS on them without worrying about ruining server balance.

The only issue I really need to figure out right now is how to adjust how often NPCs are able to hit players with high AC. As of right now, any level 70 player with 2500AC will be missed by ANY equal level mob with ANY stats about 9 out of 10 swings on average. This means that mobs can hardly hit at all, and the only way I can find to compensate is by increasing their hit speed by 2 or 3X as much, or increasing their STR and min/max dmg to MUCH higher than it previously was balanced at.

The problem with setting the speed high is that it doesn't allow much variance in encounters. Before I could just set the mobs to different speeds and adjust min/max to balance the encounter. Now, I am pretty much forced to set them all to very high attack speeds. If I try to use the second option of upping the min/max damage and STR, but I leave attack speed the same as before, the mob misses so much that I have to raise it's max really high for it to do decent dps to a player. But the problem with that is if the mob gets a few lucky hits in, no one will live through it.

Mobs should have a way to be set so they can land hits on players with X amount of AC for X% of hit landing rates. This would be the simplest solution to my problem right now. If I could just set my current custom mobs to land more often, then that would be ideal.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that mobs now use skill levels as defined in skills table in the database for their level. So, another way to possibly make mobs land hits more often might be to adjust the mob's level. In the current state, I am guessing it would take a level 100 mob to be able to land about 50% of hits on a player with 2500 AC. I have only tested mob levels a little, but I think that would probably work. I would just REALLY like to avoid needing level 100 trash mobs in my high level zones. I don't see why a level 71 mob shouldn't be able to do the trick.

From the testing I did last night, I think I have a few of the systems some-what figured out. In the examples below, I am just making them up vaguely from what I saw last night. The character I used for testing was a level 70 warrior with max AAs and skills, and had about 2500AC and 19% shielding. Here is what I have found:

STR - Strength dictates the possible range a mob can hit for and how often it will land higher or lower hits on players depending on their AC and skill levels. If you set a level 70 mob to have 100 STR and the min dmg to 300 and max to 2000, the mob will almost always hit for the minimum of 300 every time one actually lands. If you keep that same min/max and change the STR to 1000, the mob will now land most hits for 1300ish or so depending on the player's AC and skill levels. And if you keep the same min/max again but set the STR in the middle at around 500ish, you will get a large range of hits anywhere from 300 to 1300.

From my testing, it seems that STR has no effect at all on hit rate. The only thing it effects is the possible range of damage from the mob. In theory, if you could remove the min/max dmg factors, STR could be adjusted to fully tune any encounter. It is almost as if setting it has a min/max dmg of it's own. This means that not only do you have to set min/max damage, but you also have to set STR perfectly to line up with the limits you set. Otherwise, you will have a mob hitting for either min or max all of the time and not much in between.

You also have to take into factor the AC your players will have for whatever content you are designing, because STR is basically converted into Attack of the mob. So, how hard the mob will hit with certain levels of STR is highly dependent on how much AC the player has. It would be nice if someone could make some kinda table of how much STR hits for what min/max per every 500 player AC or so.

Max Damage - This one is very simple. It is the max damage a mob can hit on a player with no skills or AC. A mob will always hit for max on players who are sitting. This factor is where damage mitigation comes into play. My test character was able to mitigate around 50% of all damage with his high AC, skills and shielding. So, setting the max damage to 2500, was letting the mobs hit me for a max of around 1300ish or so (again, this is just a made up example, not real stats, but similar). Depending on the AC you intend players to have for your content, you will need to adjust max damage higher or lower to get hits to land for what you want them to max at.

Min Damage - This one work a lot different than it used to. Minimum damage is now enforced and completely disregards all forms of mitigation. This means that if you set a mob's min damage to 300, they will NEVER hit for less than 300 accept for kicks and bashes. It does not matter how much AC you have, how much shielding you have or even if you are using stonewall disc. If a hit lands, it will be no less than the min damage setting.This means you will want to set your range from min to max damage to be much wider than you may have previously set it. If they are set to close together, your character will mitigate max hits to land lower than min hits, but since min is always enforced, you will get hit for the exact same amount every time (min dmg setting).

AGI/DEX - I did some testing with this last night and it seems to have some effect on NPC damage avoidance, but AC is definitely much more of a factor into how often a player will miss. The difference from 1 AGI/DEX and 1000AGI/DEX isn't nearly as big as changing STR or AC. If I understand them correctly, AGI controls how often a mob will dodge attacks, and DEX controls how often they will parry, block, or riposte.

While writing this post, I did a little more searching and I came up with the following from the changelogs:

Quote:
KLS: Changed Mob::CheckHitChance() should be more consistant throughout the levels; puts more value into skill levels.
KLS: Changed Mob:AvoidDamage() to use a single roll system, as well as applied dex to parry, block and riposte chance and agil to dodge.
Are these new rules, or something else in the code that can't be changed without recompiling? If they are rules, the Mob:CheckHitChance may be exactly what I need to adjust so mobs land hits more often.

I was upgrading from 1071 to 1099, so there were many changes between. I think the reason I missed this info was because KLS and WildcardX write their logs a little differently. WildcardX will make a list of exactly what needs to be added to SQL like this:

Quote:
Required SQL:
insert into rule_values values(0, 'CharactereathItemLossLevel', 10);
And KLS and FatherNitwit will mention something like:

Quote:
Added several rules to adjust the aggro system with:
Aggro:SmartAggroList ( true )
Aggro:SittingAggroMod ( 35 )
Aggro:MeleeRangeAggroMod ( 20 )
Aggro:CurrentTargetAggroMod ( 0 )
Aggro:CriticallyWoundedAggroMod ( 100 )
Aggro:SlowAggroMod ( 450 )
Aggro:IncapacitateAggroMod ( 500 )
Aggro:MovementImpairAggroMod ( 175 )
Changed Spells:SpellAggroModifier to Aggro:SpellAggroMod ( 100 )
Changed Spells:BardSpellAggroMod to Aggro:SongAggroMod ( 33 )
Changed Spells:PetSpellAggroMod to Aggro:PetSpellAggroMod ( 10 )
Which is fine, but it could be interpreted that nothing needs to be done for these to take effect. That is just my opinion though.

Also, when they mention new rules in the middle of the log entries instead of in the section at the bottom of the updates for that particular day like this:

Quote:
KLS: Added new rule NPC:BuffFriends, if false npcs will only heal and not buff their friends, defaults to false.
I didn't even notice that one until now.

I am not trying to sound like I am complaining. My point in mentioning that is maybe there is a new rule or something I have missed that went in between 1071 and 1099. As things are now, it seems like something still isn't right on my server. Does anyone have a complete list of the rulesets that is up-to-date?
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Last edited by trevius; 02-27-2008 at 08:28 PM..
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  #5  
Old 02-27-2008, 04:37 PM
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So, to summarize that extremely long post;

Does anyone know of a way to make mobs land hits more often on players, other than raising the NPC level, lowering player AC, changing mob attack speed, or making changes to the source code of the emu?

I am not trying to get custom code, I am just wondering if there is a setting in the newer code versions that I am missing, or maybe some stat I haven't tried changing yet. I am getting what I consider extremely low hit rates (that land) on players from NPCs.
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  #6  
Old 03-08-2008, 10:25 AM
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Here are some testing results I got while experimenting so I could get an idea of what stats my end-game mobs needed to be able to hit players with high AC for large amounts of damage. These are directly from my notes, so please excuse the sloppiness:

NPC level 70 with 1 Str 0min/max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 800AC
Max hit around 2519 average hit 1500ish
War level 70 no AA, 1511AC
Max hit around 2217 min avg is 311
War level 70 no AA, 2121AC
Max hit around 2193
War level 70 no AA, 2893AC
Max hit around 2142 and average min is 311

Stonewall works perfectly cutting max hits in half to about 1k


NPC level 70 with 500 Str 0min/max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 1511AC
Max hit around 2217 min avg is 541/846. Higher Str increased average hit damage


NPC level 70 with 1 Str 0min 1000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 1511AC
Max hit around 920 min avg is 115

NPC level 70 with 1 Str 0min 2000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 1511AC
Max hit around 1840 min avg is 184


NPC level 70 with 500 Str 0min 1000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 1511AC
Max hit around 920 min avg is 115


NPC level 70 with 10000 Str 0min 1000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 1511AC
Max hit around 920 min avg is 874/897
War level 70 no AA, 2893AC
Max hit around 850 and average min is 808

NPC level 70 with 1000 Str 0min 1000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 2893AC
Max hit around 850 and average min is around 500ish with lots of range

NPC level 70 with 2000 Str 0min 1000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 2893AC
Max hit around 850 and average min is around 600ish with lots of range

NPC level 70 with 2000 Str 0min 1000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 2097AC
Max hit around 850 and average min is around 700ish with lots of range

NPC level 70 with 2000 Str 0min 3000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 2097AC
Max hit around 2487 and average min is around 2100ish with lots of range
War level 70 no AA, 2893AC
Max hit around 2487 and average min is around 1100ish with lots of range


NPC level 70 with 1000 Str 0min 3000max hit:

War level 70 no AA, 2893AC
Max hit around 2487 and average min is around 800ish with lots of range

500Str on the NPC seems about right for players with 2000-2200AC on mobs hitting for less than 1k

1000str is for mobs hitting around 1k to 1500

2000str for mobs hitting in the 2000+ range.

You will want to experiment, but I had no clue I needed to set STR so high in order to get the results I wanted. Once you have your STR set high enough, you can add in a min hit value, but it has to be very low or it will interfere with StoneWall and Shielding.

My testing seems to show that setting the min hit to slightly less than 1/5 of the max hit will be about where you want it as long as STR is set properly. So, if max hit is 2000, min hit might be 400 or even slightly less. Or if max hit is 500, min hit would be 100 or less. In most cases, you probably want to drop the min hit even lower than 1/5.

If you test the mobs yourself, you will see what I mean. The idea is that when you are using stonewall, the mob doesn't hit for the min damage EVERY time. They should be hitting around that range, and will hit min damage every now and then, but you want there to be variety.

Setting up your high level content in the new system means that you will need to use the information I provided here. This system now takes AC into account. It is a fair amount of work to re-tune all custom encounters, but it isn't as bad as creating them from scratch. A couple hours in each zone should pay off well.
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  #7  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:48 AM
thepoetwarrior
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Good info Trevius!

My users are currently raiding a boss that has min/max at 2000/2500 but their tanks get hit for only 1000-1300. I haven't updated the binaries in a few weeks, so maybe the min dmg will be inforced when I update the server binary?

Do you know which binary version this min dmg took effect?

Thanks for sharing all the stats on your experimenting with ac/str min/max stuff. It'll definately be a resource when tweeking raids.

Also, your zone reset quest code worked awsome. My server can now be up for over 24 hours without lagging from ghost. Keep up the good work!
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:23 PM
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Hmm, I thought your server was already running the code that included the min enforced damage. If that was the case though, your players would NEVER be hit for less than 2k on a mob with 2k min.

It was finalized in the 1081 build.

Quote:
==01/22/2008
KLS: Melee mitigation should now properly enforce minimum damage.
And thanks, I am glad you are benefiting from the quest. It seems to help my server considerably. I still do regular reboots to keep things running as smooth as possible, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was before. I could now leave the server running for a few days if I wanted and not have to worry about the players suffering too badly.

I am still looking into a few other things that might help clear up other connection issue like the well known "lag bug" and connections hanging and building up over time. I will certainly share anything I find here and on your forums as well.
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:33 PM
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Yeah, same here. I try to do regular reboots, about once every 24 hours, but at least I know if life gets busy for 2-3 days, the users can still play.

I did some test of my own. By the way, running server build 1096, and tested on one boss that hits for minimin 2k dmg, and it works. What I didn't realize is that "Cripple" was being casted on the mob. So I did a #findspell and #cast cripple on the boss, and that dropped its dmg down to about 1400. (I made a 50k hp BP for testing this). I looked up the info on cripple, and its only suppose to lower the STR and a few other stats a little bit, so how does this affect min damage? Maybe nobody knows, but at least we know how users can lower the min dmg in a fight which can change the difficulty of a raid.
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:34 PM
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I am revisiting this just to say with my next patch shielding effects will affect damage below the damage bonus or minimum hit. It will still be enforced on AC though.
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:13 PM
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very good =)
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLS View Post
I am revisiting this just to say with my next patch shielding effects will affect damage below the damage bonus or minimum hit. It will still be enforced on AC though.
That sounds ok as long as it doesn't mean the player will be getting hit for the exact same damage every time. I don't think it is right to see hits like 500 500 500 500 500 etc.
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Old 03-18-2008, 08:50 PM
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Nope, unless they're hitting minimum every time already shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:44 AM
ChaosSlayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevius View Post
That sounds ok as long as it doesn't mean the player will be getting hit for the exact same damage every time. I don't think it is right to see hits like 500 500 500 500 500 etc.
well actualy if player AC insanly high, even with new shilding you stil ggoing to see hits like 233, 233, 233, 233 etc.
Cuase min dmg is enforced onto AC.
The diffirence that shielding will now reduce the final dmg, so it will actualy matter vs all types of dmg not just nax dmg.

in other words- the problem with identical hits is with players AC, not with the shielding =)
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:52 AM
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Well, I find from my testing that the problem is actually caused by the range from min and max damage if you have it set to a small 30% difference, they will almost always be hit for the min damage. But, if you set it to a big 80% difference, they will still get hit for a good range of damage.

To adjust for players with high AC, you just raise the NPC's STR up really high and it will consistently hit harder and won't be hitting for the min very often. So, if you set min to 200 and max to 2000, you would probably want to set the STR around 1500 or so depending on the AC your players should be having for that encounter. With the min being that low, players won't be hit for min very often even after factoring AC, Discs, AAs and Shielding.

My point is that adjusting shielding in the way that it sounds like KLS has planned, won't really fix the problem some admins are seeing. If they have the encounter set wrong with a small min/max difference, they will be hit for min damage every time and if they use shielding or stonewall after KLS makes the new change, I believe they player would be getting hit for the same lower than enforced min damage every time.

Server admins have to set their encounters properly for them to work right. That is why I suggested a new tool be created to help calculate mob stats and DPS vs players for the old and new combat systems (under dev tools section).
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