New Years resolutions anyone?

[Angelox]

You see, we have a big problem here; No standard database to build on. We got EQ, which was Cavedudes contribution as a database for everyone to use - then we got PEQ, which is sort of a database that everyone has a "limited" access. then we got mine, which I started because no one would post public updates to their work. basically I'm a "one man band" - you know, harmonica in the mouth, bass drum in-between my legs, etc. , when it comes to database building -
What is the point here? are we going to continue with our personal "agendas" tell we get tired and quit, basically leave EqEmu with out a good. solid PUBLIC database for another year, or are we going to make some changes?
Why don't we get together, merge everything we have and start from there? I haven't went over to anybody's project, simply because I have done way too much work, not just packet spawning, but long, pain-in-the ass work, that should not have to be done over again by me or anyone else.
If someone offered to merge it (AX_PEQ) into a public database, together with all the other db that would accept updates and post regular db updates, then I would go for that.
The EqEmu source has a system that works pretty well, even with the few Devs atm. I can't understand why the MySql database doesn't?
I know we have people in this forum right now that are interested in this.

[John Adams]

Angelox, while your efforts are monumental compared to most, I have to disagree that no one else offers any input to "the public database(s)". Yes, there are 3+ databases floating around. Cavedude (I thought) abandoned his-own-private-works for PEQ, so that sorta combines 2 efforts into one. ax_peq has been blessed as an official database (something you should be very proud of!) in the installer package. Aside from raw PEQ and ax_peq, anyone elses "private" work is their own, really. Doesn't mean it fits into the PEQ philosophies.

And I know for a fact many people (including myself) post SQL updates to zones, doors, etc... many code and quest fixes/additions.

I feel the community is living and breathing well. It may feel like a burden to you to carry an entire database on your own shoulders, but you also admittedly have lots of spare time - most of us do not. Plus, this makes you a celebrity! Can I have an autographed picture of your avatar pls?

I (personally) do what I can here, mostly helping others with info if I know the answer. I hope to do more, but time is limited. And I don't know C++ so well. Maybe someday.

[Zengez]

I dunno, I kind of agree with Angelox here, Which is why I wanted to institute something along the lines of a wiki style database server... which was laughed out of hand and dismissed, oh well.

But I think what Angelox is more aiming toward isn't the fixes and patches and items that are addressed as a community things (i.e. doors, quests, and zone lines) but rather the raw and pain in the ass spawning of a ton of mobs throughout all the zones that aren't being touched. I know Angelox is ALSO talking about doors and zonelines etc, and that shouldn't be by any means overlooked as without them it doesn't really matter too much if stuff is spawned correctly, but at the same time being able to zone into an empty zone isn't much of an accomplishment either.

Seems to me the problem is that people are going one of two routes;

One: This is an Emulator, and as such, should be open to customization and so it doesn't matter if we aren't spawning things similiar to live, as that isn't the point,

Two: We don't even have all the stuff that we have 'done' finished, so lets finish that and fine tune it before we move on.

My response to these are as follows;

One: Very true, and a perfectly good point, if you just want to build your own world, litterally, custom tailor your own spawns and zones, great, and good luck, you needn't care any further. (this is arguable, but I'm tired and I'll leave that to someone else)

Two: Also a good point, but as has been said so very many times, this isn't live, this is an emulator. As such it will nearly be impossible to make zones exactly the same. Even if we got everything spawned as perfectly as possible, a bunch of other things are still broken. More importantly, I'd argue (in my currently limited capacity) that having most all the zones 90% spawned is far better than having 20% of the zones 100% spawned. Most of the spawn work is not terribly difficult at all, just mass production of static and/or basic roaming mobs. The other 10% is the quest triggers, named spawns, and special loot stuff that takes actual knowledge of the spawning system and time to dedicate to correctly crafting, and as a result might be beyond the abilities of a large portion of basic admins and spawners.

But, here is my issue with this, I simply don't know the stats of the mobs.
Sure, I could go about spawning mobs and probably getting the pathing right, and I'd have a bunch of lvl 1 mobs with 10 hit points and no damage wandering around the countless zones as glorified placeholders for whatever they should be. I've even re-activated my account in live to try and gather some data to get better info on spawns, but that will still take far too much effort than what it's worth, since at most I get some very rough damage stats and some equally inaccurate hit point guestimates.

So, Thats why I think something that may be a good start would be for people with true massive population experience to type up a thread on how they decide stats for mobs. Things like what really goes into the max damage in a mob, will their strength matter? or is it entirely off the 'maxdmg' stat? how many hitpoints do mobs tend to have by level and expansion? dmg? special abilities? etc etc...

Finally, perhaps a semi-public server if wiki is such a terrible idea, where we have a select few that are allowed to log into a 24/7 server and spawn as they desire to ballpark a full pop of every zone in as short a time period as possible, even if the mobs aren't quite right, or some zones are only half spawned, it's better than nothing. I myself stopped truely exploring expansion zones since PoP so my experience is limited, especially since I never did any Raiding, so there isn't much for me to go on, but I'm sure others have. If this were done then more serious database developers like Angelox and the PEQ team would merely have to make (hopefully) minor edits, some tweaks, and some crafting of quest mobs and whatnot, and the database could grow and develope much easier since the bulk work would be more or less completed.

Anyways, thats my 2 cents, perhaps it will spike some debate and get somewhere /shrug

EDIT:: As a clarification, that semi-private server would just be a database breeding ground, the updates would be made public and everything would thus would be for the good of the community.

[rojadruid]

On a personal note I plan to try to quit smoking.

[CrabClaw]

Resolution #1: to help write as many quests as I can, now that I have learned a simple knowledge of *.pl quest coding (I helped I did know Java).

Resolution #2: Don't make resolutions(hehe - joking).

Yes! By all means! You have to accept you can never be 100% live like. So it is far batter to have more zones well spawned, and organized to be playable then being by the book about things. Besides it opens the door to make some improvements to things as well (EQ-Live still has a ton of unfinished stuff and broken quests). Even on Live they re-shuffled and re-did zones so all the old world content (Freeport, Oasis, Commonlands, Nek, and the like. Even the PoN was re-balanced back in just-pre-OoW days), and is really open for reinterpretation. So I say make the old zones a good inspired-by-live play re-do, and give yourself some license for creative additions (more modern drops and updated quests, new Nameds and such).

Oh and by the way,

Happy new Year!

[John Adams]

What I'd like to see for EQEmu'2007:
-- Drive a stake in the ground and name a new "stable" build. I propose focused, organized testing by the Emulator community players and admins. There are test plans posted in the Wiki (which are in dire need of updating), everyone should take a chunk and go to town, report bugs, get them fixed. If a dev or two knows that for a month, community members will be posting details on specific bugs, maybe they will offer their time to help stablize the code.

-- Wikiwakkawoo my gods, please start updating the Wiki! This is my personal resolution, because this is absolutely something any of us are capable of doing. If we see posted info that might help others, let's start adding it to the wiki. We've preached it, now let's do it.

-- Bring the spawns for newer zone layouts up to Titanium standards. If you are going to say "Titanium only", the data should support that client, not just 6.2. Renaming lavastorm.eqg is not moving forward, nor supporting the only "legal" client for this emulator.

-- A repository for fixes that isn't a VBulletin code tag! If we make Diffs, I'd like to see a file upload area where we can stick these raw snippets of text. A forum is no place to paste code fixes. Many people have pointed links back to their own shares, but those go inactive almost as quickly as they appear. History lost. This goes for databases, too. God forbid, what if Angelox or GeorgeS got pissed off and closed their sites? A year from now, we'd be begging someone to post their database or tools from the archives.

-- Quest Helpers. So much effort is being put into making quests more stable, add missing ones, or create custom ones to aid lower population servers. I'd like to see more dev help (or maybe a nice tutorial how to add functionality to the questmgr) so quest writers lives will be easier. While the current system works quite well, there are some things you simply cannot do... yet. Also, finding someone dedicated to incorporating all this quest work into an official package would ensure 1) acknowledgement and 2) preservation of effort. The PEQ /quests site is perfect for this, but seems understaffed (?)

-- More awareness that community input IS acknowledged. It seems there is this cloud that pops up once in a while, members posting that no one but a small handful do anything. If you shovel through the archives over the past 3 years, it would become evident how many people offer their time, expertise, and solutions, but vanish after burnout or feeling ignored. People contribute here, daily. It's time we notice that and be happy it's as good as it is. However...

-- And finally, to go along with the theme of this thread, more community members who CAN code, helping with the base effort and not just their own server(s). Customizing is great, but if you fix a core bug while customizing your server, please share the core fix it so this project continues to move forward. Like Boats. How many times has this been fixed, then re-broken?

Ok, flame away. And yes, Mattmeck - I volunteer to do EVERYTHING myself ~yawn~

[sfisque]

Fix or find a work-around for bind-zone-disconnect-on-death bug

This one irritates me to no end. i've poured through the code for days on end, down several dead ends and finally back to start. i'll get it sooner or later.


Split the database imports

The database imports need to be split into specific tables so that people can "update" or "diff" specific sections if they have custom mods they do not want to whack. a good example, importing the faction fixes from wildcardx would be great without having to whack the entire database.

== sfisque

[Angelox]

Originally Posted by Angelox

You see, we have a big problem here; No standard database to build on. We got EQ, which was Cavedudes contribution as a database for everyone to use - then we got PEQ, which is sort of a database that everyone has a "limited" access. then we got mine, which I started because no one would post public updates to their work. basically I'm a "one man band" - you know, harmonica in the mouth, bass drum in-between my legs, etc. , when it comes to database building -
What is the point here? are we going to continue with our personal "agendas" tell we get tired and quit, basically leave EqEmu with out a good. solid PUBLIC database for another year, or are we going to make some changes?
Why don't we get together, merge everything we have and start from there? I haven't went over to anybody's project, simply because I have done way too much work, not just packet spawning, but long, pain-in-the ass work, that should not have to be done over again by me or anyone else.
If someone offered to merge it (AX_PEQ) into a public database, together with all the other db that would accept updates and post regular db updates, then I would go for that.
The EqEmu source has a system that works pretty well, even with the few Devs atm. I can't understand why the MySql database doesn't?
I know we have people in this forum right now that are interested in this.

Which brings us back to what I originally posted
There is no public database , PEQ included. From what I see, this will always remain the same. If PEQ wanted to have their database public, there would be something newer than RC1 out right now.
For the longest time, i was posting every little thing I did, all by myself, all alone - so, if anything else, I proved it can be done. I worked my self sick with this, and became obsessed with this "common" database for everyone. I know that the database is the heart of EqEmu.
All I managed to do, is frustrate myself and provide a lot of good data and ideas for other people's "private" servers. This is all ok, but very few people have come foward and attempted to do work as a "public servant".
Everybody: Please!! Give back some of what you take.

[WildcardX]

Angelox,

I truly understand your frustrations and in the past you know I have agreed with you, but now that Cavedude, Sesmar and myself have taken over at PEQ, I can promise you that we are doing nothing but a community service with our database efforts and that PEQ is the community database. It is true, we have not gotten around to posting the database for download more frequently, but that is only because we wanted to get all of Luclin completely done (ie bug fixes and I am almost done with Vexthal) + add in all epic 1.0 quests and mobs. We initially planned to have this released around Christmas, but we have been slowed down some by other issues in development.

After we get this last Luclin release done, then we are moving on to PoP/LoY which as Cavedude has said is mostly all popped right now, but there is much work there to be done as far as the details. We are probably looking at a late spring or early summer release for this version of the database as well.

But PEQ is the community database for EQEmu and will work to be more transparent and welcoming of contributions. Right now, most of the help we need are on the quest writing side of our effort.

If anyone here wants to work with us on contributing or fixing Quests, please see Sesmar.

[cavedude]

There is a newer database out than RC1, the final version of Luclin under FNW was released when I took over. But, releases are kind of besides the point. They are just there so we have something to play on, as I agree with the statement that the database is the heart of emu. (Though, I'm NOT knocking the importance of the code!)

I feel I may have messed up by releasing my database to the public. It caused a sort of split in the community and now instead of having the one dominant database we have 3? different databases and many mangled hybrid variants. Sure, choice is good but when somebody fixes something on one database, that fix may not work on the other 2, if they even need said fix at all. That's the problem here, too many databases not enough contributors. I apologize to the community for opening this pandora's box of sorts.

PEQ is public in that anybody who wishes to join and help may do so, we have a job for anybody with any skill level. There is a leadership structure, sure because some form of quality control and centralization is needed. Imagine if we just opened up a database to anybody to work on as they please? It would be a mess in days! I often incorporate changes I see on the forums into PEQ. Sometimes I have to edit it to be compatible with PEQ or simply because I'd prefer to do it a slightly different way. But my feeling is if somebody contributes, I want to do my best to include it.

[Zengez]

Well, here's another problem however,

In order to have access to the code we need to meet these 'quality controls' and make sure we're not retarded... ok fair enough, but here's the thing... many of us don't want to go through the long process of 'proving' ourselves and for many of us we do this kinda thing in our spare time with our busy scheduals, so we just don't bother trying to get in the group even though we might be useful...

Still, you can't just let anyone who thinks they're useful mangle the database, so what do you do?

I'd say release a mangled database with everything you have right now in it. Not just the 'fixed' code and the 'perfect spawns' and the 'complete expansions' just release everything. Let the spawns be wrong, in the wrong spots, patrolling wrong, have the wrong stats/no loot/no faction or whatever. Then, people will get it and we'll each gravitate to the zones we hunted in the most, and note the problems. Those of us that know something will fix them and (hopefully) post a thing in the forums about it. That was the PEQ team can skim the forums time to time and pull out the actual intelligent fixes that other people did in their spare time, and ignore the post about inserting cazic thule into ecommons because 'it'd be fun!'. And that way everything gets done much much much faster and PEQ team still controls what goes into the 'official' database and re-releases that periodically with 'fixed' content zone by zone, and the rest of us can play the fixed content + mangled extra zones with the knowledge that said extra zones aren't going to be correct, just rough approximations. I know I'd be fine with that, and it'd give me something to work with instead of wishing i had tools to spawn zones and then finding out that they are already spawned when i'm half way through.

This isn't a rant, it's just frustrating because it's the exact same thing i've been saying since i joined the project some 2+ years ago, you want to control the official database from the newbins, fine, but give us something to work with so we can do exactly that, work with it. if you give us nothing then say prove yourself by finding minute flaws in the zones we've never even been in and/or code in the emu itself, you lose alot of people that might be good at database work that just simply didn't play those certain zones in eq.

Moreover this would still be the same singular database, just make every new release include the fixed zones and the unfixed zones and slowly but surely the unfixed zones will become fixed and we'll have everything up to par.

Also, I'm a tad confused by the afore mentioned 'we have everything we need' to 'we'll update the tools to read the logs when we have enough logs' to 'even our tools don't work' .... do you have everything litterally poped and you just drop those zones for the releases? or do you only have the logs to pop things and you're not making the converter for.... some unknown reason?

Anyways, thats that, for whatever it will accomplish, I'm losing interest in doing database work as I can't seem to get any support to do anything I'm capable of, perhaps I'll just leach like everyone else and play off other people's hard work and let them do everything rather than helping out :(

EDIT::

Having a pretty craptacular day so i think that came off a little more pissy than i meant it, sorry, but I stand by what I said in the terms of theory and practice and what I think would help the situation.

[eq4me]

Amen Zengez

I can only imagine what pains Angelox had to suffer to handspawn the LoY zones. It is one thing to be thorough and another one to spoon feed the community with the information you want to go out. I really hope the new management of the PEQ database will release regular updates and gives the opportunity to everyone to get regular development snapshots.
My personal project for now is to clean up the Vendor Items list. You wont believe what people sold when the lists where grabbed from life.... It would really help if I would have _one_ database to work with and the assurance that someone other form the PEQ team didnt do that work since the last release.
Yes, there might be reasons for ot impementing all available data into the PEQ database until recently but if that is the case it eludes anyone but the PEQ staff.

Disklaimer: It is late and I am definitely not sober. So if you find my statements overly offensive or full of typos please bear with me. %-}

Edit: Oh, and preventing some Joe Smoe to sabotage the database should be no problem with some appropriate revision control system and an instance that must approve any update/fix to the database. See the Linux Kernel development for example.

Once more: Dont get me wrong. I have really hight hope that the new PEQ Staff will do a great job and we get finally an unified and free(as in beer) database.

[bufferofnewbies]

Originally Posted by Zengez

a whole lot

Actually, that is a sound idea. It would show new people that the community is alive and well, while also allowing some of 'not so new' ones to actually feel like we are helping. In truth, I feel like most of my work isn't of much use to anyone. But I do what little I can, out of sheer hope that it winds up being useful to someone who turns out to be the next Scorp, cave, or even Matt.

Well, ok.. maybe someone more useful than Matt... /snicker

Wait, wait. Matt, don't hit me again. I was just kidding! Oww oww oww! Not my arm! It just healed!!

Originally Posted by bufferofnewbies

Matt please sick some hackers on me and Ban me!!1!!one!

naaa, im in a good mood today, maybe tomorow

My personal feeling behind it are, putting everything out as there doing it will just cause a lot of issues.

It would be good for those that know what there doing and have experience, but what about the other 90% of the users who will need to update everything every few days for fixes?

Add the fact that a lot of people WONT shair what they fix, because thats just how this community it (yes its sad, but...)

But on the other hand, what about those who want to help and can, but dont want to wait?

Its a rough decision and will cause issues no matter whats decided, to allow everyone access wile there working to make the people who want to help happy, and listen to all the bitchinh and complaining about bugs, issues, and problems (oh my!). Or keep the complainers down and offering what they have been and piss the people who want to help off.


I think there needs to be a mid way reached, mayby make it easier for people to help? Mayby hand out the DB to certain people who have been here and have submitted fixes? I donno, but I am glad I dont need to decide.