Patching Alternatives

[Doodman]

Originally Posted by Gameross

Is ShowEQ still around. At least it's a actual packet sniffer and certainly closer to what you need to make modding Emu to live.

Well, we've always had our own packet sniffer. I was actually actively involved in helping purple (from showeq) understand the network protocol and gave him my sniffer as a reference to help fix ShowEQ for the new network code.

Still, even tho ShowEQ needs the some of the same information that we need for it to work, it's a very small subset of what we actually need to make eqemu work. They can leave a lot of unknonw stuff as unknown since showeq doesn't need to show it. We cannot.

We actually, before we decided to work on stability instead of chasing a moving target, work pretty closely with the ShowEQ folks with exchanging information on opcodes and structures. The MQ devs feel that they are superior to everyone else and, every time I've asked, do not feel it's worth their time to play nice with other related projects.

Keep in mind, there are 300+ opcodes that we have discovered the value for in 0.6.2+ and over 200 structures, not to mention changes to items. That's 300+ opcodes we need to refind almost every patch and at least a dozen or so structures that SoE scrambles for no obvious reason. Chasing live is no trivial task. You might be able to log in with a live client with a small amount of work, but 75% or more of the currently working features would not work.

[Doodman]

Besides, in an indirect way we are working on live compat related issues.

FNW has some things in an experimental version (dev only) that should assist us in work on newer patches.

And, I've been working on x86 virtual machine to be able to process and fingerprint the dispatching routine in the client to try to be able to determine opcodes in newer executables by comparing the function signatures for the handlers of opcodes.

When these two are complete, it should help in being able to follow newer patches more closely but it's not a 100% match (right now I can find about ~60 opcodes automatically). But that does nothing for structures.

Things take time. We're trying to balance stability and new features with being able to chase other patches, but stability is currenly our preference.

If you are too impatient to wait or think you can do better, you are more than welcome to do so. This project is, after all, open source. You have the same tools and code that I do.

[microbrain]

I dont know about anyone else, but I am finding it incredibly difficult (and increasingly frustrating) to get hold of an eq client that works with eqemu.

All I want to do is run my own small LAN server for a few friends to play occasionally, but this is an impossibility as I cannot find a client that works with the eqemu server.

(I unfortunately stopped playing live in december, so my client was patched beyond the november freeze. I have a copy which according to EQVercheck should work with 0.6.0, but never gets past the login screen!)

If there was a version out there that would work with an unpatched installation of titanium, I would go out and buy it in an instant . I am sure I would not be the only one.

You guys have done some excellent work here. Chasing Live is a great idea, but I for one just want to have a working emu that I can play locally.

just my 2cp worth.

[Denethor72]

I agree with Micro; if there was a version that was compatible with a clean install, I would buy it as well, because I'm getting tired of not being able to find anyone that has a version that will work. All of my friends that still play live have the newest patch, so that won't work. And you can't ask anyone through these forums without violating the agreement, so that's out. I don't care about it being compatible with live as much as just having something that will work with a fresh out of the box install. I just want to setup my own private lan to play it on, because I quit playing live to get away from the idiot players and kill-stealers that seemed to be infesting the live servers more and more often. Just my 2cp worth, so it's probably worth less than that... heh.

[ndnet]

I support the option of moving towards compatibility on a clean-install primarily because I lost my prior compatible folder long ago in a disk corruption, my last backup DVD is from June'05, and I happen to own the Titanium set I purchased for a second live account ^.~

[a_Guest03]

You'll never reach 100% chasing live. It's like eqemu is a fat kid chasing down an icecream truck with a sadistic driver. Sony's not *trying* to be a sadistic driver, but as long as the vehicle moves, you can't outrun it ad infinitum. Make a stable system based on a snapshot, like Titanium, and I'll donate at least $50.

It's worth it to me to have something that works. I donated in the past and it still doesn't work. FNW, you must focus on a snapshot. Chasing live is just too much.

Here's another thing to consider. When eqemu started, each patch was just so much! Kunark made the world 100% bigger! Velius another 50% bigger! How many expansions are there now?? I quit following eq and eqemu for a while. These are all getting to be incrementally LESS value for the same work. Think of it as the storage issue we focus now. Example, iPods. As iPods increase in size, the value of the storage goes down, and soon, I don't want to pay $500 for 7TB. I'll pay $50 for 200GB. There's only so much media I can enjoy as one person. Soon my time is better spent elsewhere, not watching DVDs on my iPod at work. Do we need the ENTIRE collection, even as each incremental growth is WORTHLESS in the grand scheme of things??? Can't we be satisfied?

You have less developers if I'm not wrong, and you *must* revitalize this project by reaching completion, or it'll fall apart. $20 is piss in the bucket for a reliable world with SO MUCH DATA. Think of how many hours alone or with friends that you can milk from 4 expansions. We need to get a client that is done, get testing done, and finish this project. I've been a member of this project for almost 4 years, and I've been unable to play it probably 3 years worth because of patches, broken features, lost interest, etc. I've seen dev after dev after dev leave, throw their arms up, and quit.

FNW, finish this project off, PLEASE. PM me if you need some money to get sorted out. I just graduated college, got a monster job, and am tired of seeing this project flounder as you all spit, fight, and rip at success. It's time to grab success, build a sturdy system, and send eqemu to pasture, where NEW features, NEW expansions, NEW becomes the mantra. Let's not be fixing. Let's be building.

[a_Guest03]

Additionally,

You can't please everyone. I noticed 60% want to see this happen. I've wanted this since the Platinum series, since before POP, before Velius, even. This should be intuitive, and you shouldn't ask for permission, FNW. You know the answer, and everyone who has been involved for more than two years knows the answer.

This shouldn't be democratic anyway. If you are looking for a solution to please the group, to be considered successful, here are the most basic demands of your public:

1. Everquest, emulated (check)
2. Ability to build a system with control of their world (check)
3. Centralized Loginserver mandatory (check)
4. World content populated (check, could use more, but mostly check)
5. Revitalization of memories relived through gameplay with friends (check)
6. A system that works stably the first time and every time and has support (missing)
7. Documentation (... needs work once system is complete)

Anything else is a desire, a want. The above are 7 identified needs.

What has this community given up in opportunity cost to see this dream?

1. Money - donations (often over $10)
2. Time - time spent in the forums, discussing, testing
3. Risk - risk of losing an EQlive account (granted, small risk)

Let's see... I can't count on hands and feet the times I've seen donations over $10 to see the light at the end of the tunnel, or to make your job easier, to make the above requirements possible.

There's no donatable amount of money that will give us the 6th requirement without using a snapshot. I can't pay for fulltime programmers to fix the bugs, and our collective money (from some teenagers, many 20-somethings, some 30-somethings, and a handful older) just isn't enough! So, the alternative is that we all pay $20 to Sony and its distribution channel for that snapshot. And why not? Homage, to the programmers, to the company that created this program isn't a bad thing. They created the content, the world in which you experienced the original memories. $20 is the cost of two month's membership, no? For unlimited play, I'd pay $20. If anyone sees $20 as more valuable than this, let me know where I can get 7 years of content, programming, innovation, more game than I can handle? The pacman series can still cost $20.

The COMPUTERS THAT RUN THIS, the NETWORK that runs this, all of the capital investments, probably cost LOADS more per person than $20.

This is a steal.

Final positive note: Sony gets paid. They didn't come in and smite us, even though I'm sure enough flexing of the lawyers on retainer would have smote this years ago. Give them a reason to let this happen again in the future, to issue a big release like this again at the end of life for a game. We're giving them a big kiss goodbye, and getting what we've wanted for so long, for a price worth paying.

Think about it, and you'll come to the same conclusion. If you don't, please explain how this is a bad idea.

[Jepster4515]

First off, I'm behind you both.

Micro, I too am only looking to run a semi-legit server that will be nicely tucked away behind my firewall with no hope of seeing the light of day, used purely for the enjoyment of myself and my roommates.

a_Guest, you've finished college? Great! If we can convince the (current) devs that focusing just on a snapshot of the game, like the Titanium release, is the most rational thing to do, then I'll pitch in $50 in addition to the cost of the CDs for the devs (and myself, of course). So I won't be able to play on the live servers! I don't think I'll loose any sleep over it.

Devs, please hear the cries of your followers: We want a release that'll work with a CD-released snapshot of the game. 1 Install + 0 patching + x download(s) = running service. That is what we want. The Nov. freeze was a step in the right direction, and no one can (or should) fault you for choosing what was then a convenient stopping point. To modify the fat kid and the icecream truck analogy, some of us ran too far (and patched after the freeze) and others didn't run far enough (stopped patching before the freeze and now find themselves on this side of the cutoff date). A CD-released snapshot will cost us money to get, but it will be a legal solution to the problem because it would be a Sony-blessed distro of the client.

Once the Titanium server is going golden and all is well with the world again, you can (if you so chose to) turn your attentions to the next big compendium release, which will no doubt happen in about *checks his watch, in spite of the fact he isn't wearing one* six months from now, give or take, in line with the release of the next EQ1 expansion.

Jepster
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