Populating newer zones..?

[GeorgeS]

I think Angelox spawned LOY zones from memory (if memory serves me right). so you can do the same. The tools for this are out there.


GeorgeS

PEQ has several tools, im not sure if there just for the PEQ team or if its open to the public.

PEQ shairs in your vision, best thing would be to help them IMO, then it would get done quicker then you by yourself, or them without you!

Also it will ensure your not doing stuff they already have done.

[Angelox]

When i first started out with EqEmu, I was incredibly impressed with the whole project; I couldn't believe someone actually figured out a way to play EQ at home - and I still am!
After the "newness" of it all began to rub off, I realized all the work that still needs to be done, and I knew "ditto" on how to pitch-in and help.
The only place I ever got any answers and help was in these forums; I tried the PEQ forums and got no interest and no replies.
It seems to me, there is not enough people (programmers, zone-spawners, etc) in EqEmu that would constitute smaller groups breaking off and starting things on their own. I see it better to stay in one place, and since EQEmulator Forums appear to be the oldest and have the most traffic, this is the most logical place to stay at. The EQEmulator forums have a very nice comunity going, and a lot of dedicated people.
When we talk about "live", where do we start? "EQ Live" is constantly changing , for better and for worse (more worse than better). Years ago, Everquest belonged to Verant - it was a whole different game in those days. Nowdays, it belongs to the Sony Corperation, and the only thing the "Verant" version of EQ had in common with the current "SOE" version, is the name, "Everquest".
All these things like, higher level caps/skill caps, alt adv points kills the original EQ game and the old zones are rendered useless. places like South Karana that once boasted hundreds of players on a busy night, become empty "wastelands".
What is an emulator? how do we apply the word "emulator" to EqEmu?
Do we want to our server appealing to other players, or just ourselves? What do most players look for in this game?
First thing I did when I finally got a server running was invite some old gamer friends and gave them GM status; big mistake! since they were able to do anything in the game, they got bored real fast and were gone in a few days.
So how am I going to make something playable out of EqEmu, that would spawn interest and maybe capture a handful of players?
Here's my opinion , and I know many others agree;
- Before you open your server to the public, make sure special spawns and drops are as uncommon as they are on Live. If you want to know how rare, look at how I have things on my LoY zones and a few others I fixed. Setting spawns and drops should be a priority, plat should be very scarce - you should be able to start out looting sp's and gp's not pps. It should a little harder just to be able to acumulate plat for your first weapons and /or spells.
- Faction, alt/adv and all the rest, should be at the bottom of your "to-do" list - the only faction you need at first, is the KOS aggro the mobs have. You can do these things, but first you need an interesting, playable enviroment.

It's a shame so many people are "hiding in a corner" with their backs facing this project as a whole - the result is the big decline you see in the player base.
In a situation like this, you need real players and their input more than the abilty to keep a running server. You also need a constant flow of newly interested programmers, zone-spawners to the project as a whole (not rag-tag servers, we already have enough of those).

One thing I know for sure; I will never be able to make a "better" Everquest and top all the things Everquest had - If SOE hasn't been able to in all these years, I certainly will not either. The best I can do is try and make things as "Everquest-like" as possible (maybe add some of the better ideas SOE had at first), in hopes to spawn some interest in gameplay.

I'm one guy, and look at what I did - I want to do more and will. Crap! look at what Cavedude did all by his own little self! And I'm no "programmer" , mind you - just wanted to see an feel a few things I felt on live. Reality is, no matter how stupid and old any question seems in this forum, someone should try and answer because you'll never know who's the next "Cavedude" or" Angelox"- and you might have just pushed him out. A bunch of you posters here helped/trained me to do this work, so in return, I feel I "owe" you all - and what I do in EqEmu belongs to all of you, thus promptly posted.

But what if we had a group of people (on my train of thought) working on a common database that was being updated and POSTED TO THE PUBLIC almost daily? then we could have someone making/posting small SQL patches for the people who already have this "common database" installed. It would have to be done mostly via this forum, because if not, it would end up with another "small group" away from the main flow of users and players again.

After all, we do this so we can have fun and play a good, interesting game, no?

[eq4me]

Amen Angelox

ok, this is getting a litte OT bit here we go:
Tuning EQ for an population of well under 100 people per server is no easy task. Much of the thinks that are taken for granted by the Sony Developers are not there. Like the ability to buy or tradeskill for equipment well above the level to obtain it even with a full group. Also much of the world is deserted because anyone goes to the zone with the best loot and exp. On EQLive thist might be fine but imho not on EQEmu. There should be some way to make older zones, quests and items more appealing to players. How that could be done without making a custom DB I am still pondering.

Unfortunately most Players only want a fast fix of EQ, which they cant have on EQLive. They cant get fast enough to the highest level and get the best gear but are the first to cry for new content. Typically they get very agitated on each bugfix and 'nerf'.

The below is a thread I started on the Darktides forum, I was rather baffled by the response. It is a perfect example of how the average player thinks. Hell, even I could not contain myself and used every bug I found and reported until it was fixed.

http://www.atfreeforum.com/darktides...orum=darktides

A few more acerbic and bitter threads and ingame chats later I decided that my time was better spend helping the community.

Originally Posted by Angelox

The only place I ever got any answers and help was in these forums; I tried the PEQ forums and got no interest and no replies.

I was not aware they have died off like this, I always send people to there because its always been *the* place to help out for a live like DB.

Not sure what to say.

[Angelox]

Unfortunately most Players only want a fast fix of EQ, which they cant have on EQLive. They cant get fast enough to the highest level and get the best gear but are the first to cry for new content. Typically they get very agitated on each bugfix and 'nerf'.

You have to separate the players from the non-players; by this I mean, the new Everquest has evolved into something like a giant "Chat" service where most people just want to show off their gear and brag about thier stats. To a point where people will buy ubber accounts, so they can get in on that train too. The raids became more like a place to go "hang out" at, and hope you win on a roll when the mob gets mass-killed.
The real players are different; they want to play! And since SOE is in it for the money, they want to keep all partys happy; So they started things like the "progression servers" - which brought a lot of players back into the game - meanwhile, the old servers were still there for the ones who like to chat and what- not.

There should be some way to make older zones, quests and items more appealing to players. How that could be done without making a custom DB I am still pondering.

I think that ANY thing you make, be it custom or not - things have to be rare and hard to get. The game can't be "fast and easy" - when they are, people loose interest fast.

I would have never known that you don't speak good english, had you not said so.

[John Adams]

Angelox, I agree with you on most things you just said. Bravo, and well stated, as usual. However, the problem I see with Emulators is population. If your server is "exactly like live" (or like live was back in the golden era of EQ), that means pretty slow progression - even WITH full groups/guilds of people. Anyone who used to play EQ has already played to level 50+ the slow way. Most want to stampede at 10x level bonus and get to "the good stuff" that they have missed since quitting. And, since most of that content is still missing or un-tuned, they play, kick a gods ass once or twice, get bored, and quit. I had the same experience as you, GM'd all my buddies who #level 255'd themselves and killed the entire world. and they are now gone. But, the world is there for them as-is should they get the desire.

I'd love to run a public server, one that's finely tuned. Hell, I'd love to offer mine now as-is, because I too am still amazed that this works! But, I do not have the time to be a GM, or programmer, or manage the data. My job is very busy, and my home life away from the computer is as well. So it's not all about people not caring or not wanting to contribute. Believe me, if I had the time, I'd be in there with you tweaking and doing all I could. I feel like a sponge sometimes, but that's my life ~grin~. Maybe someday...

All in all, good points from everyone. Oh, and my original thought about excessive loots dropping. If you are the only player in 10 zones on a given day, you will grow tired of never accomplishing anything, and leave that server for one that offers faster XP and more loot at young ages. That's my opinion, anyway.

(are we still on topic? hehe!) Good discussion though. As for PEQ site, I get responses there. Maybe it was an off week?

[bobbydole]

Wow.. I guess I didn't expect this kind of response, all I wanted to know was the best way of populating the zones based on packets collection. And it sounds like I can't just login to live and collect the NPC names, spawn locs and pathing info, because none of the packet collectors currently work with live. And i haven't been able to figure what to do with the packet files currently at www.projecteq.net/logs/ (which seems like they're what i'm looking for), eqbuilder/eqExtractor doesn't seem to work.. :(

So i'm unsure on the steps I should take next. I would like to get the zones populated as close to EQLive as possible, but i'm not sure I have the time to manually add the mobs to the zones. I don't know how long it would take compared with using the packet logs.

As for the problem with low population and stuff, I'm not really sure I care about that stuff right now. For me EQLive is the reference, which everything else should be based off of, so you want that as good as you can get it. Fine-Tuning it for your population size should be done by a server-by-server basis. So when i get PoD up and running, and submitted it to Angelox's DB or PEQ or whatever, people can do whatever they want with it. But there should always be that reference for every one to access. I think that's what the PEQ guys were aiming for, but it (appears) to be bogged down. That's why I think Angelox's DB is a good idea, like PEQ but with out the data restrictions.

However, getting back on topic, whats the best way of getting the zones populated?

[John Adams]

Originally Posted by bobbydole

However, getting back on topic, whats the best way of getting the zones populated?

You can either go off a good memory, EQ content sites that detail mob placement and stats, or import one of the zones post-PEQ from Cavedude's database and get to tweakin to live-like. Other than that, I do not know of any way to currently run around EQLive and gather spawns, objects, doors, etc.


And Angelox, fwiw, your questions have never been "dumb". I've learned more off of just your posts than almost anyone else here. You should feel good about your contributions, indeed.

Originally Posted by mattmeck

CHOO CHOO

LOL @ Matt

[Angelox]

Originally Posted by bobbydole

Wow.. I guess I didn't expect this kind of response, all I wanted to know was the best way of populating the zones based on packets collection. And it sounds like I can't just login to live and collect the NPC names, spawn locs and pathing info, because none of the packet collectors currently work with live. And i haven't been able to figure what to do with the packet files currently at www.projecteq.net/logs/ (which seems like they're what i'm looking for), eqbuilder/eqExtractor doesn't seem to work.. :(

So i'm unsure on the steps I should take next. I would like to get the zones populated as close to EQLive as possible, but i'm not sure I have the time to manually add the mobs to the zones. I don't know how long it would take compared with using the packet logs.

As for the problem with low population and stuff, I'm not really sure I care about that stuff right now. For me EQLive is the reference, which everything else should be based off of, so you want that as good as you can get it. Fine-Tuning it for your population size should be done by a server-by-server basis. So when i get PoD up and running, and submitted it to Angelox's DB or PEQ or whatever, people can do whatever they want with it. But there should always be that reference for every one to access. I think that's what the PEQ guys were aiming for, but it (appears) to be bogged down. That's why I think Angelox's DB is a good idea, like PEQ but with out the data restrictions.

However, getting back on topic, whats the best way of getting the zones populated?

Don't get your hopes up with the "packet collectors" - at best, I would say they give you starting point on the given zone you're working on.
The only real way to get good work done is to get out there, choose a zone , and start working on it. This zone you choose needs to be one you are familiar with and have playe a lot. You will have to learn how to use and juggle editors around, you will need to learn Perl and Sql (not depend on just the editors).
Here's some of my method of bringing a zone to "live" - let say I want to do BoT;
I've played BOT. so I know a little about it, but not all. I start with my browser and go here;
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/zonelist.html choose "Torden, the Bastion of Thunder", then I pocceed to copy past a list of all named mobs with their drops- example;
----------
Atle Cloudburst 64 - 64 Monster

Blue Diamond
Brick of Ethereal Energy
Diamond
Fungus Clump
Lightning Encased Signet
Orb of Electricity
Ornate Chain Bracelet Pattern
Ornate Silk Boot Pattern
Peridot
Raw Diamond
Scepter of Lightning
Shard of Pure Energy
Spectral Parchment
Strand of Ether
Earring of Thunder
--------------

That's entry number one with his drops - these drops need to be sorted out into different loot drop lists, such as "general" (raw diamond, strand of ether, etc), rare ( Ornate Silk Boot Pattern, etc), and unique (Earring of Thunder, Scepter of Lightning),. The latter apllies only to this named mob. the first two drop lists, you'll be building on as you go, and will apply to most mobs in the zone. Also, sometimes there is extremly rare drops in the zone which would require another drop list.

After I have made a full list of all named and printed it out - I then dump Cavedudes data for that zone and merge it into my DB. This gives me a "head start".

Then I start to make the named mobs ; I get their stats from whats posted at allakhazam, and looking at what other mobs in the zone are and what they do.

After setting that up, then I look at the grids and pathing add/fix whatever needs it. Also look around for mistakes; for example in droga, Im still removing "cave_guardians" that for some reason are duped all over the zone ( and this was taken from the PEQ db).

the rest is "fine tuning"; if the zone doesn't work, I make a "zoner" - the named mobs get put into spawn cycle.

Finally, there's the quests (raids, etc) , and i still need to a lot of that. The most important thing to this is to "stay with it" , don't give up easy, and finish what you start.
There's no "easy" way around this, no matter what you do, you will end up doing a lot of "data-entry" work.

Edit;
If you do decide to work on a zone, tell us which zone, so we can choose another or you make sure no one else is already building it.

[Angelox]

Originally Posted by John Adams

(are we still on topic? hehe!) Good discussion though. As for PEQ site, I get responses there. Maybe it was an off week?

I dunno, maybe they didn't like me - I'm sort of a "newbee" and can ask real stupid questions at times.
A lot of times, I can't see the sky because I'm standing under a tree - this results in a stupid question: "where did the sky go?"

CHOO CHOO

[sdabbs65]

Originally Posted by mattmeck

I was not aware they have died off like this, I always send people to there because its always been *the* place to help out for a live like DB.

Not sure what to say.

PEQ has not updated anything since Thu Mar 17, 2005.<last release>
they have been updateing quests and such but for databases nothing
new in a while.
it <WAS> the best Everquest live like database avaliable for EQEmulator tho
at that time.

[eq4me]

Originally Posted by sdabbs65

PEQ has not updated anything since Thu Mar 17, 2005.<last release>
they have been updateing quests and such but for databases nothing
new in a while.
it <WAS> the best Everquest live like database avaliable for EQEmulator tho
at that time.

But peq-luclin-rc1 war released on Jul 17 2006?

For tuning EQEmu to a low population: Yes, there should be an feeling on accomplishement. But if some poor Monk has to camp Raster of Guk or a Druid killing Mitty for 20+ hours straight for the sake of a life-like experience I am not for it.
For the ultimate reason I quitted commercial MMORPs alltogether: Most people want it nice an boring. No real danger, just a stream of steady exp and items. It was increasingly hard to get some people together that want to wander off the beaten path and willing to try new, maybe stupid and sometimes even lethal things.

Oh, by the way: Happy Birthday Angelox!

[John Adams]

Indeed!

Birthday:
October 10, 1952

Someone here IS older than me! Woot!

Happy birthday, sir!