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[Sakrateri]

I would not portend to change something because I was granted some power within just a few days, I would at least wait until the general population had gotten use to my role in smaller capacities. That said, there are people that use the PublicLogin to allow their friends to play with them that are NOT on LAN. and as such most of them keep their servers locked. A fire that rises the fastest burns out the quickest .

[Angelox]

Originally Posted by Sakrateri

I would not portend to change something because I was granted some power within just a few days, I would at least wait until the general population had gotten use to my role in smaller capacities. That said, there are people that use the PublicLogin to allow their friends to play with them that are NOT on LAN. and as such most of them keep their servers locked. A fire that rises the fastest burns out the quickest .

To start with, I don't have any power to change anything - and everyone knows where I always have came from with my ideas.
I didn't say this to start anything, it's just the way it is, and my opinion on why EqEmu is on its way out.
This isn't even a new idea - I'm also a Diablo player, and this is the way Diablo is played: multiple categorys: Expansion, Hardcore, "anything goes", Ladder, and home-box. All but home-box are supported/hosted by Blizzard.
And players of all types flock to all the categorys.
This would display some interest and organization , might even attract some more players of other types.

[devn00b]

From an ex-developer (and dare i say it senior member round here) point of view, the project is being hampered by several factors : Lack of live compatibility, Lack of patches to make live compatible, No lead developer anymore, only one person (doodman) in control over the login server, releases not tested in the proper manner.

Lack of ability for new players to play without spending cash on the right cd is hurting the project pretty bad, lets face it most people that want to use the emulator want to use it so they DON'T have to spend money. Going out and buying CDs defeats this. Lack of patch files available for these players makes it hard. Times have changed and this philosophy probably needs to be re-evaluated.

There seems to be no active lead developer to recruit new people, to set goals for which developer works on what portion of code, what needs to be done etc. This leads to things getting worked on that don't really matter or are non essential.

Back in the day before the degradation of the project we the login server in several hands (Mine, LE, Image). We could modify update and run the login servers as needed.

Lack of testing of new releases is a huge problem, FNW drops a new version (with a new # even) and doesn't test it on windows. Thats a huge problem. Back in the day releases weren't done till tested to be working on BOTH platforms in a reasonable manner. Again this could be due to no real project lead.

All in all the project is in a sad state, the current people that are in charge don't care anymore really and its rather sad. EQEMu was my baby for a long time, as with many of the other developers that have come and gone breaks my heart to see what has been done to her.

[boogerific]

Just an FYI on the client. I've never used Titanium. I'm still using the last good patch that was emu-compatible on the old client, from when it said not to patch after 9-13. The only trade-offs are I can't see certain newer models and I can't see links sent from a Titanium client, and I find that neither of those issues are all that bothersome. And since nothing seems to be implemented past OoW, I'm not missing any zones (so far).

[techguy84]

All make good points. There are way to many servers that do absolutly nothing, so you cant really bring people together to make a good community. There are a handful that visit this board reguarly but most just come and go.

There are not near the members involved as there was when I was here along time ago. Back then we were chasing LIVE and it was great, becuase the dev team was working and pumping out patchs right and left. Things were great, there were alot of servers, but each server had a good population on it. GW, WR to name a couple. But things have severly gone down hill.

I dont belive that lack of a dev team, lack of orginization and lack of other things here at the Emu are all to blame. If there was any way we could see active users still using EQ Live, you will see that number is very small now a days. The game just simply is outdated, and when sat side by side with current MMO's, it fails in comparison.

"But nothing matches the challenge of EQ" some may say. Vanguard is currently the closest to EQ in terms of difficulty. It is a grind intensive, wait and camp style, like the original EQ. But I think the kicker now is mostly the graphics and gameplay. Newer MMO's look great, and a big kicker for me is the combat system of the new ones. I dont like to just click attack and watch the health meters go down, I like to be involved in it. EQ has some options you can do while you battle, but you just click Bash, Kick, Slam ect... thats it. It was great at its time because of the sweet world that it was, but that was then.

Maybe I'm speaking for myself, maybe others share my views, but this is what I belive and what I feel. Eq was great to me for a long time, but I have my eyes set on the newer models now. I think others feel the same way.

[Windcatcher]

Originally Posted by devn00b

From an ex-developer (and dare i say it senior member round here) point of view, the project is being hampered by several factors : Lack of live compatibility, Lack of patches to make live compatible, No lead developer anymore, only one person (doodman) in control over the login server, releases not tested in the proper manner.

Lack of ability for new players to play without spending cash on the right cd is hurting the project pretty bad, lets face it most people that want to use the emulator want to use it so they DON'T have to spend money. Going out and buying CDs defeats this. Lack of patch files available for these players makes it hard. Times have changed and this philosophy probably needs to be re-evaluated.

There seems to be no active lead developer to recruit new people, to set goals for which developer works on what portion of code, what needs to be done etc. This leads to things getting worked on that don't really matter or are non essential.

Back in the day before the degradation of the project we the login server in several hands (Mine, LE, Image). We could modify update and run the login servers as needed.

Lack of testing of new releases is a huge problem, FNW drops a new version (with a new # even) and doesn't test it on windows. Thats a huge problem. Back in the day releases weren't done till tested to be working on BOTH platforms in a reasonable manner. Again this could be due to no real project lead.

All in all the project is in a sad state, the current people that are in charge don't care anymore really and its rather sad. EQEMu was my baby for a long time, as with many of the other developers that have come and gone breaks my heart to see what has been done to her.

You know, one reason I started working on a client back in 2003 was because I realized way back then that the process of trying to keep up with live was quickly becoming untenable. It's not that it can't work in principle, it's just that it was clear that the resources such an effort requires simply weren't there anymore. Too many developers had fled. I saw our own client as the only way that something like EQEmu could survive long-term with the level of developer resources being granted it.

That's not to say that there aren't trade-offs: many people come to EQEmu to play EQ, but I decided that my client, at least, should stay away from EQLive content. I tried putting myself in SOE's shoes for a moment and I figured that they would be forced to go after EQEmu in that case, and decided that a client should be 100% legally safe from them. It's made the effort easily twice as hard as it would otherwise be, since I've had to not only create content but the means to create it, but it's just about there now. I really should say it *is* there -- it's playable with the limited content it has, though it's buggy. Like EQEmu, it requires more resources than it currently has, but it at least offers us something of an out if people would be willing to put some effort into it.

Cavedude has been beta-testing it for several months on his own server, though he is notoriously hard to get a hold of and I don't know how it's going. Scorpoius2K has offered MANY MANY times to use his already-built custom server with the client, and I made sure two years ago that the client is compatible with it. Put the two together and they simply work. No CD's to buy, nothing. Just download and run. The only issue is content, specifically mob models -- Scorp's servers were built expecting that all of the SOE content would be available, which isn't the case with just SimpleClient. In my opinion, here is where resources could have a huge effect -- adapt Scorp's custom zones to what content we have right now, and get a server running. Even with its current bugs, SimpleClient could be released today -- it works, given a server for it.

I tend to vent to Scorp from time to time (grin) and I've been saying for years that I need help from the devs -- I need someone to set up a server, with appropriate levels of content, and provide hosting support for it -- sort of an offically blessed EQEmu-SimpleClient server. Don't worry about the login server -- Doodman and I already worked out a protocol and the LS supports it. Short of inventing our own encryption, that part is done. I can't work on SimpleClient AND work on OpenZone (which I'm having to do right now for v7.7 to make mob modeling easier) AND create content for SimpleClient (spectres at the moment) AND deal with a server. GeorgeS has been a godsend getting me mob models to work with, but I still have to rig and animate them all, and I still have to get OpenZone to the point where others can take mob modeling chores over from me (this means features AND tutorials). If we want to talk about developer/EQEmu "offical" resources, then I can honestly say that there's something you can do in the very short term and from my standpoint it's definitely a "help needed" situation. The point is that there is at least one way out of some of the difficulties you mention, but I've reached the point where I can't move the ball much farther forward by myself.

[Amra]

Why not make the client an open scource?

I think your project is amazing as it provides the ablility to customize things far beyond sony's client. Creating a completly new game based on the current structure is very possible. It's too bad there is a lack of interest in the development. I wish I could help.

[Windcatcher]

Originally Posted by Amra

Why not make the client an open scource?

I think your project is amazing as it provides the ablility to customize things far beyond sony's client. Creating a completly new game based on the current structure is very possible. It's too bad there is a lack of interest in the development. I wish I could help.

The problem is cheating. If it's open source there's nothing stopping cheaters from going crazy, and believe me, now that I've written one I can see all kinds of ways that cheaters could take advantage. So as much as I would like to make it open source, I doubt that it can happen for the really important parts (though many parts CAN be open-sourced, such as the netcode, content loader, 3D engine, collision avoidance, etc.). By the way, SimpleClient uses the same engine as OpenZone, so if you downloaded OZ then you already have all the 3D engine and collision avoidance code...

One question that I need answered, and only the devs can do this for me, is how to enforce client upgrades. As we fix bugs, close exploits, etc. there needs to be a way that ensures that people upgrade. It's ironic that with our own client we find ourselves in the same position as SOE, but there you have it. So anyhow I need an answer to that before I/we release it.

Edit: Someone will definitely get the full source, if nothing else to ensure the longevity of the client. I have no idea who that will be, as I haven't thought about it, but that will have to be another dev discussion. Whoever gets it will definitely need to have Delphi 6 or 7 (the personal version would be just fine). It can also be ported to newer versions -- I once ported it to Delphi 2006 but I hated D2006 so much that I dropped it and went back to D6.

[Kayot]

^-^ I really got into EQEmu for it's database. It was fun learning SQL and context design. Thats one thing I have to say for the project, the Database is layed out nice. And thats about it. In the last few months I've noticed something interesting.

Every few days there is another PvP server. I hate PvP in general and it's worse when the GM is a PvPer. Talk about a twelve year old (Ironic that when I started I was insulted after my third post with the claim that a 12 year old could set it up, I wonder if this is one of those ironys I hear so much about?)

As for me, I'm waiting for EQ2emu, and until that happens (Probably never, or worse, a closed source non-obtainable login server) I'm playing WoW with Antrix. I like how there isn't a long load delay because the world thread loads each section. No more drops during zone. My only complaint is that the database design is a little crowded, and while I'm working on the EQemu Editor I don't have time to look into it.

It's been a lot of fun working on the broken wiki and the the non utf8 forum. I liked working with object placement, and there was nothing like the newer levels in the game.

I personally blame Sony for all the trouble, and ever since the root kit incident EQ is more of a reminder of how Sony doesn't care about the common user. When EQ shuts down, this EQemu will be important for the cult players. Till then, expect the weekly servers.

P.S. I'm not trying to be negative, it just comes out that way.

[LethalEncounter]

Sorry if I'm a couple of weeks late, but I just noticed this thread. I believe that enforcing client upgrades is the simpliest of the problems you are facing. The way EQ2 does it, is that the client sends its version number to the login server before it logs in. If the version number is too old it cant login. You could do something similiar. Another thing you could do is just randomly change opcodes every patch to prevent old clients from working

Originally Posted by Windcatcher

The problem is cheating. If it's open source there's nothing stopping cheaters from going crazy, and believe me, now that I've written one I can see all kinds of ways that cheaters could take advantage. So as much as I would like to make it open source, I doubt that it can happen for the really important parts (though many parts CAN be open-sourced, such as the netcode, content loader, 3D engine, collision avoidance, etc.). By the way, SimpleClient uses the same engine as OpenZone, so if you downloaded OZ then you already have all the 3D engine and collision avoidance code...

One question that I need answered, and only the devs can do this for me, is how to enforce client upgrades. As we fix bugs, close exploits, etc. there needs to be a way that ensures that people upgrade. It's ironic that with our own client we find ourselves in the same position as SOE, but there you have it. So anyhow I need an answer to that before I/we release it.

Edit: Someone will definitely get the full source, if nothing else to ensure the longevity of the client. I have no idea who that will be, as I haven't thought about it, but that will have to be another dev discussion. Whoever gets it will definitely need to have Delphi 6 or 7 (the personal version would be just fine). It can also be ported to newer versions -- I once ported it to Delphi 2006 but I hated D2006 so much that I dropped it and went back to D6.

[John Adams]

Originally Posted by Sakrateri

I would not portend to change something because I was granted some power within just a few days, I would at least wait until the general population had gotten use to my role in smaller capacities. That said, there are people that use the PublicLogin to allow their friends to play with them that are NOT on LAN. and as such most of them keep their servers locked. A fire that rises the fastest burns out the quickest .

Ignorance IS bliss, isn't it?

As for the discussion, and Angelox' initial response, I happen to agree. The loginserver here is a mess. And what emu admins truly deserve is a way to run their own loginserver apart from eqemulators.net. If that is Minilogin, then Minilogin needs to be extended to allow more than 1 server.

Comparing EQEmu to WoW in any capacity makes no sense, because it is brand new (by comparison), and there are literally hundreds of people involved in code, database, and general aspects of that community. It's "new", and EQ is "old". New new kids on the block don't care for EQ's outdated gfx so much, so it is definitely an old-schooler game. And I still love it. Hell, I run a server and I still play legit from level 1 on occasion just to feel the original excitement...

I do not imagine things will change overnight... but what I would hate to see is "we're done here, nothing more to do. open source, knock yourselves out". I feel that coming, and it makes me sad that I am not a better coder. But, what I got is fun, and people play and seem to enjoy themselves.

I feel the whole game is in fact dying, due to the core of the live game itself, comparing it to the "whoa pretty" gfx of newer games. (I love my Antrix server, too... hah pretty).

[techguy84]

Call me a new kid on the block, but I like the newer graphics of EQ2. I really cant say a whole lot of nice things about WoW, as I dont like there cartoonish style models. I have a nice computer that can handle games like EQ2 at full tilt and I love it. The shading, lighting, particle effects, mapping ect.. its all just great to have as it makes it feel better.

But Im not all about graphics. The biggest thing that got me on EQ2 was all the new features. Guild Manangment, the new UI, combat system ect.. When I think of EQ, I think of how I used to just click Attack and watch, get the xp, and move on. I couldnt do quest all that much because I didnt want to have to sit down and write down what I was doing, and where I was going next. Newer MMO have the quest log, a way to help you along on your questing.

I guess I am a new kid and not a old schooler, but I spent many many sleepless nights with EQ, and no game has ever deprived me of a life more. I still like to kick back and play EQ when I am in that old mood, but I find myself burnt out on it no matter how long I go with a break.

Ahh sigh....

[GeorgeS]

Although it's not as busy as it's been back in '02!, the people that are still here are hard core fans of EQ.

What keep me playing after all this time, like any game I enjoy is to relive the 'live' experiences from way back then on my server, and really enjoy that.

I think there has to be a re-org of the code and establishment so we can plan what needs to be done. It feels like we are running a business without a plan and CEO. I'm willing to help code the emu, but C++ is not my strength. Unfortunately there's no written details on how to make diffs or figure out structs in the source.

I will however remain as the toolman here - as that is my niche, and good tools are like good food - make you feel good inside!

GeorgeS

[John Adams]

GeorgeS, you are on the money. Not so much a complete re-write, or re-structuring, but something needs to be done to allow more people to easily play this emulator, or it may not survive. I do agree the old school, "love EQ for EQ" players are still here and always will be. But in order to draw new attention to those who's first game may not have been EQ, but something else and they want to test-drive what it was like to REALLY have to play a game properly... hunting down nearly extinct copies of Titanium, and the cumbersome setup of the emu leaves a bad taste. Wow that was a run-on statement.

Anyway. For the last year, I have been absorbing EQEmu code, as well as comparing it to many other MMO emulators that seem to be a little more 'modern'. My hopes are that I will suddenly learn something that makes sense and I too can start making C++ changes where needed. I'm totally into it, just lack some of the basic knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, anyone Dev'ing EQEmu. This thing kicks ass, and I for one am very greatful to have discovered it. But, I seriously believe we need more dev attention (from more devs, not the current overworked ones ) and to make things simpler (I am working on one solution now, almost done!)

-J

[ZexisStryfe]

I must say, I guess I am not like the usual EQEmu user. I never really wanted to relive the "glory days" of EQ. I wanted to play something new, and more importantly, using the zones, models, etc. present in EQ, I wanted to create something new. I wanted to be able to create my own world. The fact that EQEmu doesn't patch to live is a big problem. Because of this, I must agree with Amra regarding open-sourcing. I know Wind spoke of cheating if they were to do this, but if the login server code was released, and people were able to set up their own logins separate from EQemu.net's server list, then I don't view it as so much of a problem (for instance, make sure the servers on EQEmu Login are "official", and if you want to hack and change your client, then use the released login server. The minilogin helps, but you are limiting the community by forcing them to use your login server).

A perfect example of this already exists. The most popular EQEmu server out there is a world where they took the client/server and changed it and were able to create their own world. Now I understand that they do things that are considered "illegal" here, and because of that just naming them is enough to get a thread closed, but come on. At any given time they have more players on their server than all of the "official" servers on EQEmu.net combined. Obviously they are doing something right, whether or not anyone here is willing to admit it.

It is my hope that EQ2Emu will end up having a released Login server, and that it gets more backing from developers than EQEmu currently has. If this turns out to be the case, then hopefully I will be able to create my vision there, since I am just not capable of doing it with the current EQEmu.