EULA, what a sad thing...

[smuggler]

ah, well i knew that EQEmu was legal, but i was just kind of laughing at verant because they think it isn't...

their ignorance will be the death of no man.

[smuggler]

Windcatcher, as one of the premier coders in the community, it was already common knowledge that you are, indeed, a professional gentleman of leisure.

having read your above post, i must kneel before you and proclaim that you, before all else, are truely deserving of the hot nasty secks that all those ladies give to you (and eachother, in your immediate field of view) every night.

i applaud your greatness, for it is infinitely great.

[Windcatcher]

SW, truth be told, I am so unbelievably burned out on anything and everything relating to EQ/EQEmu that the only thing keeping me here is the desire to see an EQEmu-ZP server working (one that uses OpenZone zones). Otherwise, (and I assure you that this isn't a dig at anyone) I really feel like it's getting about time to move on. I'm seriously considering just uploading my latest ZP-compatible server code, saying, "here it is, have at it," and taking my exit bow. Playing with this project has been a lot of fun, but life is calling me and I'm thinking that it might be time to start listening (no, no one at SOE has contacted me, either).

WC

[p00p00h34d]

well this is MY 2 cents. Well we are using their: code, their models, their items, their zone, their hard work, and god knows what else without even asking them if we could, so i dunno that could be considered stealing. I mean i guess because we arent making a progfit out of it it could be just considered borrowing like a video tape or something, but i dunno i dont really consider eqemu legal although i dont really care. But yeah thats my 2 copper pennies.



"What did the dumb idiot say to the handsome genius?"
"I dunno u tell me"

[Windcatcher]

From a strictly legal standpoint, I think it's legal to use their client with third-party servers, but I think you're making a moral point. However, I think it's a valid one, and I think it deserves proper consideration.

There is a saying about standing on the shoulders of giants. In my book, the designers, artists, and coders at SOE are giants in every sense of the word. You are absolutely right: in using their client, EQEmu, while not making any monetary profit, is still benefiting from their hard work, and that work should be given proper credit, if nothing else. One of the reasons I went to all the trouble of creating OpenZone is because I would really like to see EQEmu stand on its own and not "leech" so much from their effort. Like I said, using their client is in my opinion legal, but that is nothing compared to the work that went into the original game. At one time I had a dream of seeing EQEmu branch into something completely unique, with its own zones, models, artwork, and even client -- essentially, a total divorce from EQ. I don't think that's ever going to happen, and I find myself not getting any younger -- and seeing a need to do something else. The more I think about it, the more I feel that I'll be leaving this project in the very near future -- life is calling, and I need to start listening.

I've said from the start that I'm not a server dev, so I'm not privy to anything that's gone on in the past between the dev team and SOE (or even among the dev team members). I don't know what's been said between the team and SOE, or the level of animosity (if any) between the two. Would the people at SOE have given their blessing to EQEmu? I have no idea, and I have to honestly say I would be shocked if they had, but at the same time I have to say that I would have been impressed beyond words in that case. I think a program for users to create custom content for the game (zones, quests, artwork, whatever) would have been a very cool thing, and I think that trying to recreate the feel of "live" servers is futile at best and ridiculous at worst. Regardless of the feelings of the people at SOE, I can honestly say that, having created custom zones from scratch, I now have the utmost respect for the work that went into the original game. It must have been a staggering effort.

WC

[RangerDown]

Smuggler you still got a little bit of brown on your nose... yeah... right there. :P

From what I can tell it looks like maybe waay back in the days of alpha they might've been thinking about making this game compatible with user-operated servers, kind of like NWN. I mean, the whole structure of how the login/world/zone servers interconnect, and the fact that you only have to change a single easily-edited text file on your machine and voila, you're connecting to a whole different set of servers. Even the list of servers is sent dynamically to the client in the login response packet -- they could've just hard-coded the names of their servers in and put a new EXE on the patcher whenever they decided to open a new server.

I'm sure the EQ developers at Sony (the ones actually sitting down and designing the artwork and programming the server code and so on) are marveling at how much has been accomplished here. Especially given these guys aren't getting paid to do it!

I'm sure the EQ execs at Sony (the ones who probably have never even seen a line of code, never responded to a single petition, and MAYBE have interacted with the EQ servers to the extent necessary to extract a billing revenue report) believe these guys should be in "federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison."

[windsofwar]

to the best of my knowledge when we buy the cds we are buying a sngle user license. now, when we do this and we click i agree we are agreeing to the eula. now the only reason we are forced to click i agree every time is because verant/soe feels it neccesary to make there licensing agreement dynamic.

this works in their favor as it allows them to say almost anything they want to. since your clicking the i agree button your stating you agree with what there saying and placing yourself into the equivalent of a verbal contract stating you wont break the rules.

99% of us use something similar at least to eqw or some other way to start eq. but most of us still click i agree so in that respect we are breaking are contract with soe. however that contract is not to the best of my knowledge legally binding as the burden of proof is on the side of soe to prove that you clicked i agree.

keep in mind its entirely possible to edit the eula.txt to say whatever you want so long as you dont patch i.e "i agree to eat twinkies and have sex with gnome chicks"

so legally with keeping in mind we only have a single user license agreement and remembering that we CANNOT distribute there software we are or should remain perfectly ok. the only thing that soe can really do is try to lock up the emu project in a biased court litigation process to drain the coffers of the emu. kinda like what ended up happening to napster and a few of the other ptp share progs.



anyhow thats my two cents please feel free to correct me. id love to be wholly right but if im wrong....well shite happens gnite

[smuggler]

yes, exactly, we bought the software, what we do with it is none of their concern unless we're making money off of it

case closed.

and.. as far as this brown on my nose... well, i don't know how it could have gotten there...

actually, i just felt like making an absurd comment... im good at that.

[RangerDown]

"i agree to eat twinkies and have sex with gnome chicks"

Thank you! The EULA screen of my client has now been amended to read that.

Problem is, I haven't eaten a twinkie in years...

[smuggler]

i edited my eqstr_us.txt file so that whenever my target is out of my attack range, it says

"Your foe is too far away, get closer idiot."

and when you try to bind in the wrong zone it says

"This kind of shit is usually seen in the city..."

[Wiz]

Windcatcher:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, something doesn't have to break the law to be grounds for filing (not winning, filing) a lawsuit.

The point is simple. EQemu does not break the law, but Sony could file a lawsuit anyways, and more than likely get it pushed to court. While they most certainly would not win, who would stand for the legal costs of defending EQemu?

[DeletedUser]

I think that there also needs to be understanding that MMORPG's in a way have a monopoly. They have the ability to set whatever price on the MMORPG they want, because there is no competition on who is hosting the server.

[smuggler]

maybe MMORPG's should license their software to induvidual servers for a flat rate, and then the servers could charge monthly fees...

the only problem is that the gaming population might become so thinly spread that it takes away from the MMORPG's halflife and also, when induvidual servers start charging monthly fees, it makes for many security concerns when dealing with credit information.

we live in a beautiful world

[Windcatcher]

It's true that SOE could *file* a lawsuit, but it's also true that a lot of states (like mine) have what are called "anti-SLAPP" laws. "SLAPP" stands for "strategic lawsuit against public participation", and anti-SLAPP laws are specifically designed to protect against what you describe. For instance, I believe that in my state I could countersue for treble damages for having to defend myself against such a baseless suit (the damages being what I had to spend in my defense). I would still have to defend myself, however, but an anti-SLAPP law might make it easier to get free legal help since a lawyer might see that the plaintiff *will* lose and hence see an opportunity to make some money.

Like I said above, though, I'm probably going to leave the project soon anyway. It's been a long ride, and I think it's high time I got off. :P

WC

[RangerDown]

Just to keep you updated. Keeping true to the EULA I agreed on, I'm eating a package of twinkies as I type this.

Now, any of you rolled a gnome chick, and if so, what server?