Let me try again. POP/luclin exp - Page 3

xSigmax · #31 10-30-2002, 05:28 AM

I'm all for EQEmu, and if all you guys are for EQEmu, then you are probably for warez and whatever you can get free.

Face it, you use EQEmu cause your too cheap to pay 13$ a month ( or whatever the fuck it is ), or you just flat out hate VI.

I have read what, 26 posts, of total bullshit and im tired of it myself.

EverQuest server emulators are illegal, Sony and their lawyers have gotten rid of quite a few of them.

Downloading files from Sony's patcher, for a game you never bought, to let you play as if you had bought the game, is illegal.

Just my 2 cents.

Later,
Sigma

pms · #32 10-30-2002, 05:42 AM

I agree. Nothing new has been said for about 20 of those posts. Lets let this die. I keep having to explain the same thing over and over and its old already

astemus · #33 10-30-2002, 06:46 AM

You know what buddy? You're absolutely right. Why be against one and not the other? They're both illegal, so if you're gonna break the law, might as well go all the way, right? Leave no room for the powers that be to just tolerate things.

You want to know why things are like they are, well here is the reason, since i didn't really see anyone else except hogie touch on it.

EQEmu is an emulator that tries to emulate the EQlive servers. It does a nice job but is not anywhere near the content and stability that EQlive servers have. And the fact of the matter is, EQEmu isn't hurting them financially, in fact, if it does anything, it only helps them sell more software. We won't even mention the fact that 90 percent of the people that play EQEmu have 1-3 paying accounts on SOE's servers.

The answer is simple... The only thing keeping EQEmu from being shut down is the fact that it requires that a consumer buy products from SoE. So as long as EQEmu doesn't get the server capacity to handle more that 20 people online at a time on a broad scale, then this project has nothing to worry about. SoE isn't going to waste the time to really sue the team here. Offering solutions to bypass the patch security would give SoE a reason to drop this project. Offering solutions to bypass the current version and give old patch files would also fall under that.

It is obvious that you are new to the Emu. I don't disagree with you, but i have respect for this game, and for this project, and i would personally like to see this project continue.

And my own personal flame to you : It's really easy to draw lines between what is legal and what is illegal. You, my friend, need to grow up enough to see out of your windows and realize that there is more to life than just that line. Your 9th grade ethics have no place on this forum.

pms · #34 10-30-2002, 07:11 AM

My 9th grade ethics ? I can tell you didn't read thru my posts. Why bother since you dismiss my arguments without offering anything that shows them to be untrue. I am also not 'new to the emu' which doesn't have any bearing on what I was saying anyway.

>The only thing keeping EQEmu from being shut down is the fact >that it requires that a consumer buy products from SoE.

And you can back this up how ? How many people here are willing to come forward and say they bought the files to play the emulator ? <waits....> Nope. Nobody. Sorry this is a stupid idea. The reason they don't shut it is not cost effective to do so and legal cases can cause bad publicity. And as you said its not complete yet so, why bother. BUT, it is becoming more and more complete by the release. Its a race against EQ's EOL and the release of a emu thats a complete replacment for sony's servers. If the emulator gets too good too fast it WILL be shut down. Mark those words down and a year from now lets see who is right if eqlive is still generating income for Sony.

Now as for your idiotic attempt at a flame. What the hell are you saying ? You are wiser then me and somehow I should try to be as enlightened as you because you have it all figured out ? Besides having no idea who or what I am you completely missed the point of what started these posts. Hard to belive in your, obviously, elightened state but, somehow you missed that I was saying the idea of drawing a line between two things that are the same is stupid and in the end they are both illegal so what is the point ? I think the window your looking thru might need to be cleaned. You obviously can't see thru it.

Xarslik · #35 10-30-2002, 08:12 AM

Moderators: Please lock or delete this thread.

Trumpcard · #36 10-30-2002, 08:19 AM

PMS, 1st off let me say I understand where you are coming from, and it's obvious that you've thought out alot of your arguments. Let me offer my take on the whole matter.

1) Your original post can easily be construed as 'how do I get files that I havent purchased the release to patch'

quote 'When eq is patching/checking where does it keep the file list ? Server-side or contained in your officially licensed and paid for eq installation directory ?'

If you have the purchased the said release, then a file list is immaterial, you receive the files you are legally entitled to patch. Trying to circumvent this process to receive files you are not entitled to is illegal. So , you must be able to see how this is construed as a 'warez related' question. Even if you don't agree with anything else, you have to be able to see that point.

2) Legality of eqemu. This is sketchy, as there are few precedents, but EULA's, even if they did cover this sort of activity, are not very binding from a legal perspective. EQEMU does not seek to circumvent Verant in anyway, the only way we would be interfereing with them is if we were somehow redirecting production EQ players onto emulated servers. You called it reverse engineering, that is not a completely accurate assesment. Reverse engineering is when you have the product in hand, and can dissect it (the server in this case). Heres a good definition.
Reverse engineering

Since there is no way to obtain said machine code to reverse engineer what we are doing is really considered 're-engineering'. It as all built from the ground floor. Packet data to and from the servers is not classified information.

3) People buying EQ to play the emulator. Actually, I have personally talked to a few, so I know it has happened. Part of what turns alot of people off the idea of MMORPG's is the reoccuring expense. It was a turnoff to me at first, why would I keep paying for a game I've already bought? I doubt that anyone has quit playing EQ on the live servers to play it on the emulated ones. I have to agree that this project has probably brought EQ more revenue than it has taken. This is conjecture, so its completely debatable.

Now, if we were to come up with some miraclous feats of software engineering and be able to produce a server that could hold 500+ people, and completely emulate the live servers, I'm sure we would run into problems with verant. As it stands, the project is fun, and it allows people who play eq to try new things and obtain items they normally couldnt get. But how stable is this? Everytime the database is flushed, it's gone, theres no contractual obligation to protect anyones data, etc. I dont know of a single person who has started at level 1 and gone anywhere.
Will verant fight about it? I doubt it, I highly doubt they care, and even if they did, the project isnt doing anything from a software piracy standpoint. We certainly aren't promoting it, as you see from the fact your thread was locked when it was construed as such. As a matter of fact, Im purchasing PoP this week so I have the files available to goof with, even though I gave up my live account months ago. That is money that Verant would not see otherwise.

pms · #37 10-30-2002, 08:35 AM

@trumpcard See there can be intelligent debate about this. Thanks for bringing the discussion back to the real issues.

I am sure there may be a case or two where people bought the game to paly on the emulator. I guess i would just state that the percentage is so low to not be a factor in anything Sony considers beforre decing to go after the emu. I to know a bit about reverse engineering and emulators. Making an emulator that in no way uses any code from the origianl is not in violation of the law. Thats why they continue to exsist fot more then just eq. I noted back in previous post that what is probably covered under intellectual property rights is the data contained in the databases. I would guess thats why no database is bundled with the emu binaries. I suspect the developers know the risk there.
I'll disagree with the use of the term warez but, certainly I understand what the people running this board (which aren't always the developers I'm guessing) . I don't think I ever said that I didn't understand what they were trying to prevent. I just feel the whole argument pointless since there exsists things on this board that are equally illegal under the law. It was others that suggested that patching eq to play the emulator is legal while patching files you didn't buy is not. This is just wrong. They are equally illegal even if you did not agree to the EULA. By opening and installing the EQ software you agreed to the licensing agreement. This battle has been fought in court many times before and the software companies always win. It is law like it or not.
Ya know I stopped caring about the files or the if its allowed here or not long ago in this thread. It is certainly the right of the mods to delete or lock anything they want. I'm opinionated and after 10 years working for software companies I like to think I understand licenses and what the 'other guys' think from time to time. I'm just arguing the point to argue the point. Because the mods say so doesn't change what I feel to be the facts. Honestly, as someone that has been a long time supporter of GNU and FSF I think it is important that the users of the emu at least realize that this all exsists in a pretty grey area and the developers are taking some risks in doing this. Its not just all fun and games. they wouldn't be doing it otherwise. Some people think software should be free and the phrase 'intellectual property rights' hurts everyone.

Trumpcard · #38 10-30-2002, 10:11 AM

I agree that the databases definately constitute an 'intellectual property' violation. Personally, I don't see why everyone is so eager to reproduce the eq environment, personally I thought one of the neatest things about the project was creating completely new worlds. Im sure because of the massive scope of the eq gameworld its not a real option in alot of cases. If there were better tools to support the creation of EQEMU databases, we would probably see alot more unique content in the servers. Leaving the database out of the eqemu project does exactly that, keeps anything that can be construed as being owned by Verant seperate.

As far as patching for one and not the other, I disagree here. If that were the case, valid login authentication would be done PRIOR to the patching process to ensure you are a valid game user, as it stands now, when you purchase the game, you have in essense purchased the right to bugfixes they distribute, whether you are a current eq subscriber or not. I realize this can be construed as 'The door wasn't locked, so I figured it wasnt breaking and entering going into the house' logic , but I don't consider it to be the same. I don't think the use of the eq client , which is owned by you, not by Verant, can be construed as warez. Warez would be making it possible for someone who plays the game to play in the EQ world with an illegal copy.
In these cases, a person that warez EQ to play on the emulator is not a EQ client, and had no intentions of being one, so once again, there is no loss of revenue for Verant. Once again, the possibilty is strong that someone formerly uninterested in EQ might be persuaded to play in the Verant game world because of this interaction, where otherwise they would have been playing GTA3, and at that point they would be required to have a valid key (which they are giving away now, so it can be argued that the original EQ trilogy has now been unofficially put in the public domain since it is free to download online complete with CD-KEY). Its all conjecture once again, but I don't see how anything in the project is causing a loss of revenue for big business.

I agree though, most of it is a great big grey area, but I also disagree with the EULA and licensing agreements. Although the EULA has been successfully upheld in court on a few isolated occasions, it has failed to be upheld many more times.

I would think to truly get to the bottom of the matter, you would have to have a lawyer really go over the specifics (is there a lawyer in the house?) , and still, the intrepretation of the law varies from state to state. Personally, I want to see Verant and EQ prosper, I think they innovated alot of what the MMORPG industry is today.

Xarslik · #39 10-30-2002, 10:34 AM

I definitely agree with Trumpcard about unique content.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do right now: Setup an "Arena Challenge" where you take on a challenge, fighting harder and harder creatures, to get to lvl65 with some quality custom-gear. However the way the emu is right now, there's very little documentation and discussion on the specifics of complex customization. I've had to go about editing code myself to achieve most of my desired quest-system results, as well as trying a multitude of different things to understand exactly how parts of the emu work. Now for the normal user this can be overwhelming, if we focused more on the custom side of the emu we definitely would see more unique servers. I'm definitely not criticizing the developers, they're doing a great job, but if you subtract the EQ NPC\Item etc databases, there's a lot less to do atm.

One final comment on the patchers: I would say that the EQ Patcher is definitely more along the lines of a service given to you for buying the software. Any non-online server run software has a website or integrated patcher to keep it up to date, this is very common now a days with bugs arising out of every game released. Therefore buying the game and not paying for an online account, while still using the patcher, is perfectly legal. The CD-KEY is what you're buying if you want to play online. As it stands, ppatch.exe allows you to check the "Planes of Power" option in the patcher, and the only legal way to obtain this file is by buying PoP. Now giving someone this file breaks the boards rule on warez. There may be other transactions that go across this board that could be constituted as warez, however generally they are textual, and we seem to impose a limit on binary transactions. So while under the generalized title of "warez", giving someone ppatch.exe and eqhost.txt is one in the same, in these boards it is not. That is what you, and everyone else must understand.

astemus · #40 10-30-2002, 10:55 AM

Hmm... Just wondering at what point is this thead considered off topic? Best to lock or move this to general discussion.

astemus · #41 10-30-2002, 11:02 AM

Hey, and as long as we're off topic... I've personally leveled from lvl 1 to 50 (cleric) and to 40 on a warrior... so it can be done, and without the help of "uber" custom armor, just a set of cleric quest armor and crafted...

pms · #42 10-30-2002, 11:03 AM

Since this thread has gone about as far as it can and everyone is being nice I'll just make the point one last time then I'll drop the whole damn thing.

Even though you paid money for the software you don't own it. Its a nasty fact of life in the software licensing world. You own nothing. You just paid for the right to use it as they allow. Thats what the license says. Sony owns all rights to the software on your computer and on the CD. You may not like it but, its how the system works. You don't own the CD, the software contaned on it, or even the software now on your hard drive. Its illegal to transfer or modify or use for any purpose other then what they allow. Its stupid, its not often enforced but, when it is the software company always wins. As microsoft is doing right now in the case of the company that sold MS software that got sold to another owner. Microsoft removed thier rights to even sell MS software. You can buy a 1000 copies of eq or MS office and you actually own nothing but, 1000 software licenses. Welcome to the real world Neo.

astemus · #43 10-30-2002, 11:23 AM

I'll buy that. I think everyone can agree on that. We own only the metal it sits on. And i'm sure we can all agree that there are certain things that we should and shouldn't do for the sake of the project's life. And even if we all don't agree, it doesn't matter because it's not our project. Everyone has the right to their opinion. Now, lets just give the top post spot back to someone asking the same question for the 100th time...