New Years resolutions anyone?

[WildcardX]

Angelox,

I truly understand your frustrations and in the past you know I have agreed with you, but now that Cavedude, Sesmar and myself have taken over at PEQ, I can promise you that we are doing nothing but a community service with our database efforts and that PEQ is the community database. It is true, we have not gotten around to posting the database for download more frequently, but that is only because we wanted to get all of Luclin completely done (ie bug fixes and I am almost done with Vexthal) + add in all epic 1.0 quests and mobs. We initially planned to have this released around Christmas, but we have been slowed down some by other issues in development.

After we get this last Luclin release done, then we are moving on to PoP/LoY which as Cavedude has said is mostly all popped right now, but there is much work there to be done as far as the details. We are probably looking at a late spring or early summer release for this version of the database as well.

But PEQ is the community database for EQEmu and will work to be more transparent and welcoming of contributions. Right now, most of the help we need are on the quest writing side of our effort.

If anyone here wants to work with us on contributing or fixing Quests, please see Sesmar.

[cavedude]

There is a newer database out than RC1, the final version of Luclin under FNW was released when I took over. But, releases are kind of besides the point. They are just there so we have something to play on, as I agree with the statement that the database is the heart of emu. (Though, I'm NOT knocking the importance of the code!)

I feel I may have messed up by releasing my database to the public. It caused a sort of split in the community and now instead of having the one dominant database we have 3? different databases and many mangled hybrid variants. Sure, choice is good but when somebody fixes something on one database, that fix may not work on the other 2, if they even need said fix at all. That's the problem here, too many databases not enough contributors. I apologize to the community for opening this pandora's box of sorts.

PEQ is public in that anybody who wishes to join and help may do so, we have a job for anybody with any skill level. There is a leadership structure, sure because some form of quality control and centralization is needed. Imagine if we just opened up a database to anybody to work on as they please? It would be a mess in days! I often incorporate changes I see on the forums into PEQ. Sometimes I have to edit it to be compatible with PEQ or simply because I'd prefer to do it a slightly different way. But my feeling is if somebody contributes, I want to do my best to include it.

[Zengez]

Well, here's another problem however,

In order to have access to the code we need to meet these 'quality controls' and make sure we're not retarded... ok fair enough, but here's the thing... many of us don't want to go through the long process of 'proving' ourselves and for many of us we do this kinda thing in our spare time with our busy scheduals, so we just don't bother trying to get in the group even though we might be useful...

Still, you can't just let anyone who thinks they're useful mangle the database, so what do you do?

I'd say release a mangled database with everything you have right now in it. Not just the 'fixed' code and the 'perfect spawns' and the 'complete expansions' just release everything. Let the spawns be wrong, in the wrong spots, patrolling wrong, have the wrong stats/no loot/no faction or whatever. Then, people will get it and we'll each gravitate to the zones we hunted in the most, and note the problems. Those of us that know something will fix them and (hopefully) post a thing in the forums about it. That was the PEQ team can skim the forums time to time and pull out the actual intelligent fixes that other people did in their spare time, and ignore the post about inserting cazic thule into ecommons because 'it'd be fun!'. And that way everything gets done much much much faster and PEQ team still controls what goes into the 'official' database and re-releases that periodically with 'fixed' content zone by zone, and the rest of us can play the fixed content + mangled extra zones with the knowledge that said extra zones aren't going to be correct, just rough approximations. I know I'd be fine with that, and it'd give me something to work with instead of wishing i had tools to spawn zones and then finding out that they are already spawned when i'm half way through.

This isn't a rant, it's just frustrating because it's the exact same thing i've been saying since i joined the project some 2+ years ago, you want to control the official database from the newbins, fine, but give us something to work with so we can do exactly that, work with it. if you give us nothing then say prove yourself by finding minute flaws in the zones we've never even been in and/or code in the emu itself, you lose alot of people that might be good at database work that just simply didn't play those certain zones in eq.

Moreover this would still be the same singular database, just make every new release include the fixed zones and the unfixed zones and slowly but surely the unfixed zones will become fixed and we'll have everything up to par.

Also, I'm a tad confused by the afore mentioned 'we have everything we need' to 'we'll update the tools to read the logs when we have enough logs' to 'even our tools don't work' .... do you have everything litterally poped and you just drop those zones for the releases? or do you only have the logs to pop things and you're not making the converter for.... some unknown reason?

Anyways, thats that, for whatever it will accomplish, I'm losing interest in doing database work as I can't seem to get any support to do anything I'm capable of, perhaps I'll just leach like everyone else and play off other people's hard work and let them do everything rather than helping out :(

EDIT::

Having a pretty craptacular day so i think that came off a little more pissy than i meant it, sorry, but I stand by what I said in the terms of theory and practice and what I think would help the situation.

[eq4me]

Amen Zengez

I can only imagine what pains Angelox had to suffer to handspawn the LoY zones. It is one thing to be thorough and another one to spoon feed the community with the information you want to go out. I really hope the new management of the PEQ database will release regular updates and gives the opportunity to everyone to get regular development snapshots.
My personal project for now is to clean up the Vendor Items list. You wont believe what people sold when the lists where grabbed from life.... It would really help if I would have _one_ database to work with and the assurance that someone other form the PEQ team didnt do that work since the last release.
Yes, there might be reasons for ot impementing all available data into the PEQ database until recently but if that is the case it eludes anyone but the PEQ staff.

Disklaimer: It is late and I am definitely not sober. So if you find my statements overly offensive or full of typos please bear with me. %-}

Edit: Oh, and preventing some Joe Smoe to sabotage the database should be no problem with some appropriate revision control system and an instance that must approve any update/fix to the database. See the Linux Kernel development for example.

Once more: Dont get me wrong. I have really hight hope that the new PEQ Staff will do a great job and we get finally an unified and free(as in beer) database.

[bufferofnewbies]

Originally Posted by Zengez

a whole lot

Actually, that is a sound idea. It would show new people that the community is alive and well, while also allowing some of 'not so new' ones to actually feel like we are helping. In truth, I feel like most of my work isn't of much use to anyone. But I do what little I can, out of sheer hope that it winds up being useful to someone who turns out to be the next Scorp, cave, or even Matt.

Well, ok.. maybe someone more useful than Matt... /snicker

Wait, wait. Matt, don't hit me again. I was just kidding! Oww oww oww! Not my arm! It just healed!!

My personal feeling behind it are, putting everything out as there doing it will just cause a lot of issues.

It would be good for those that know what there doing and have experience, but what about the other 90% of the users who will need to update everything every few days for fixes?

Add the fact that a lot of people WONT shair what they fix, because thats just how this community it (yes its sad, but...)

But on the other hand, what about those who want to help and can, but dont want to wait?

Its a rough decision and will cause issues no matter whats decided, to allow everyone access wile there working to make the people who want to help happy, and listen to all the bitchinh and complaining about bugs, issues, and problems (oh my!). Or keep the complainers down and offering what they have been and piss the people who want to help off.


I think there needs to be a mid way reached, mayby make it easier for people to help? Mayby hand out the DB to certain people who have been here and have submitted fixes? I donno, but I am glad I dont need to decide.

Originally Posted by bufferofnewbies

Matt please sick some hackers on me and Ban me!!1!!one!

naaa, im in a good mood today, maybe tomorow

[bufferofnewbies]

Viva la resistance!
Matt <3's me.

btw: feel free to ignore me at any time... It's the alcohol talking.

[Angelox]

I think we all are doing fine - I really like Cavedudes database and I don't think I'm alone here, with that statement - this EqEmu project has a life of it's own and there's not much anyone can do to change it.
We've got things like the custom servers, the "historians", and the one who race with live. I think trying to keep up with live people are running out of steam though.
I'm sort of a "historian" type - like things the way they used to be with EQ, so I try to duplicate the "good old times".
But anyways, were do you start if you want to have the same thing Sony has? Everquest is always changing. better just to draw some lines and standarize a few things.
Everybody does real good here, to be honest with you (and myself), i don't see how what I had in mind would ever pan out anyway.
Mr. Cavedude; If it weren't for you and your Installer with your eq database - me or half the people (if not most) , wouldn't be around EqEmu forums right now, discussing all this! Stuff like that is what brought us all here. I sure hope you stay with that installer, because it really is what brings in the new people with the new ideas.

[cavedude]

Regular public PEQ updates aren't going to happen. The simple fact is most of the community are NOT developers or world builders and need to be led through everything step by step. If this wasn't the case I never would have created the installer. This being what it is, I really don't want to support every db release we put out. And believe me, I will be expected to. Will releases be faster than what we are normally used to? That is one thing I am hoping to accomplish.

Likewise, the database will not be released in its current form. It is not where we want it to be right now and because of the above a mangled database will only flood the forums and my inbox with support requests. We are, however working towards a release. When this will happen I can't tell you. But, our objectives are simple. We want to do some more bug correction in all the zones up to and including Luclin, and we want to get every Epic 1.0 done. Once that happens expect a release and PEQ to begin heavy work on PoP/LoY.

Next, PEQ is going to continue to function as it always has. Meaning, the server will always be up for development. Having a centralized database is the only way to properly develop when we are talking about multiple people. A CVS/SVN style system simply does not work in this situation.

If you wish to help out, come to the PEQ forums. http://projecteq.net/phpBB2/ Browse some of the bugs, if you have fixes, submit them. If you have additions, submit them. When I get time, I promise I will do my best to include them. You don't need database access to do this, especially since the currently released Luclin database will give you a great idea of our ID and table structure. If you wish to have more direct access to the db or become a member of the beta team (access to weekly db dumps) and feel you have the skills necessary then all you have to do is ASK ME. This is something very few people have done so far. I have also asked a few people to join and most times I've been rejected.

To clear things up, nobody on the PEQ team said we have all we need. In fact I mentioned we are missing logs for most of LDoN and for nightmareb. That's a lot of zones! In addition, I have yet to find any working logs for many instanced zones later then LDoN, new bazaar, and nektulos (or middle Nektulos if you play Live I've been told) Secondly, nobody ever said we will update our tools as necessary. We only work on the db and occasionally add a submit to the server core when we need it. No work is done on any db tools by PEQ. We don't have any unreleased tools for db development. What we have, you have and yes our current tools like yours do not work with Live packets, only older log collections.

The PEQ database does have spawns for most of the zones our client supports. The above mentioned zones are exceptions. This just recently occurred. 90% of these zones were a gift from FNW. When he handed PEQ over to me, he sourced all the logs he had into the db so they wouldn't go to waste. Thank him! To avoid any misunderstandings, FNW is still an active member of the EQEmu community, he just prefers to work on the code. The other 10% of the zones came from what I had popped in my database.

To conclude, I feel my method is fair. The best way to help is by dropping changes on the PEQ forums. You don't even need to play on the server, our players are great about leaving bug reports or ideas of what they feel needs to be changed. If more people did this, we'd be able to release what we have faster. I'm never going to tell you what you need to work on either. If you see something that needs work and you feel you can do it, then go for it.

I am open to suggestions. If somebody as any other options, I am willing to listen.

[cavedude]

Of course I plan on keeping up with the installer! As mush as I enjoy working on the database, I think it's equally as cool to help people new to the community get their server up and running so that when they learn the ropes a bit, they can help out as you have done, Angelox.

[John Adams]

Zengez, let me analyze your post, because it has many great points in it that I totally disagree with.

Originally Posted by Zengez

I'd say release a mangled database with everything you have right now in it. Not just the 'fixed' code and the 'perfect spawns' and the 'complete expansions' just release everything. Let the spawns be wrong, in the wrong spots, patrolling wrong, have the wrong stats/no loot/no faction or whatever.

Sorry Zen, I disagree with this idea 100%. There are probably hundreds of databases just like this out there already... and do you know how much "feedback" we get? Barely any. Ask Angelox - this is his thread for that very reason. If people cared to do so, they would have contributed with PEQ-RC1, fixing OG -> Luclin content. And the PEQ staff is not 100 guys - it's roughly 3, who don't get paid to do this anymore than we do, but carry the great burden of maintaining a set philosophy. Start adding Joe Schmoe's data on a whim, you are right back to random inconsistent data with no one to test and validate, because no one will. No matter how great an idea it seems.

Originally Posted by Zengez

That was the PEQ team can skim the forums time to time and pull out the actual intelligent fixes that other people did in their spare time, and ignore the post about inserting cazic thule into ecommons because 'it'd be fun!'.

This is what we do now, today, without changing a thing. People post bugs, post fixed code, and post wishlist items they'd like to see. The "powers that be" pick those items that are intelligible, are well conceived, and will benefit the entire community, and incorporate those fixes into the next build. How is what you're asking for any different?

Originally Posted by Zengez

I know I'd be fine with that, and it'd give me something to work with instead of wishing i had tools to spawn zones and then finding out that they are already spawned when i'm half way through.

This is about all I agree with. If there is one man alive on this planet earth that knows how to modify the collector/extractor/builder, I implore - beg - grovel (but I won't send cash) him to teach someone else how to do it. I know it's difficult, or it would be done on a whim. But it's not brain surgery. Even I could learn how to walk packets and look for strings. Yeah it's more than that, but the point being, we strongly require a knowledge transfer in this area. PEQ may be rumbling around Luclin, but random_admin01 may wish to work on GoD - and HIS data will be golden, not hand spawned or something the core guys just don't trust.

Originally Posted by Zengez

This isn't a rant, it's just frustrating because it's the exact same thing i've been saying since i joined the project some 2+ years ago, you want to control the official database from the newbins, fine, but give us something to work with so we can do exactly that, work with it. if you give us nothing then say prove yourself by finding minute flaws in the zones we've never even been in and/or code in the emu itself, you lose alot of people that might be good at database work that just simply didn't play those certain zones in eq.

Dude. This is sooo a rant. You have that power __right now__ to find flaws in the database and submit them to PEQ Database Bugs for integration. I really do not see what you are asking for, for 2+ years... (except the tools part heh)

Originally Posted by Zengez

Having a pretty craptacular day

Please don't take my quoting only you as a direct attack towards only you. I do sympathize with what you're saying, but I sincerely feel we have everything you are looking for right this moment, only you want a database.sql file with todays date on it. And I just don't see how that's any different than working with the latest release. Same goes for the code.

I'm done. Sorry if I tweaked any nipples.

[mwmdragon]

Ok, here goes.

Angelox, Cavedude, PEQ = Choice... but

I think we should conglomerate the 3 databases. And this is how I suggest it gets done (Read the word "Suggest" a few times to make sure you saw it there :P


1. Start with a blank Database (All the base tables ect)

2. Start with one Table and use a nice viewer like MySQL Front to compare the info... copy or export the info needed from each database and compile it into a sql file. Continue this until you have gone threw every table. It may take a long time but if you get different person to do a different table then it will go faster.

3. After this is done source all the .sql files you have into the clean database.

4. Now setup a forum that has a public area and a private area. Public so everyone can submit fixes. Private so you can copy and paste fix code from the poublic area as needed.

The Forums must be set up with an area for every table in the database so that posts go into the forum according to the table the public person is offering the code to edit.

5. Make one date per month..say the 15th. That a new verion of the database is released that way the people doing the editing have 30 days to add or change whatever they want from the forums or privately inbetween the releases. After a edit is made from the public forums message you just delete that message that way the forums stay clean.

6. Make it known to people joining the forums that this isn't a place of discussion but a place of submission for work doen on the Master Database.



I REALLY wish I had time to do Database work again :( Starting my own company has really killed my fun time, but filled my pockets with more than lint.

I know Angelox and cavedude are really the only major player in the database are right now (cavedude now holds PEQ or so i believe) so I guess it is really an idea for them to mull over.

If you need a fast host for files and forums let me know I've got a pro server up and running that I have complete controll over >

[Angelox]

Well, I got a "sneak-peek" at what's coming from PEQ. I can tell you, you all are going to get knocked off your feet.
They are in fact, doing a very good job. They have something there to make everyone happy.
Even me, with my nit-pick'n details.

[Zengez]

Originally Posted by John Adams

A Lot of Stuff

I agree with you 100% with how you said that John Adams, but the problem is that you actually took my points out of context. You see, It's true that the PEQ team skims the forums for updates, which is exactly why I suggested what I did... you're absolutely right that isn't asking for something new.

However what I Was asking for was for the complete database to be released so that there was absolutely plenty to work on and then I guaruntee you dozens of posts will be made from all over by many different members on updates for all sorts of updates throughout the entire 'mangled' area of the database. Sure there won't be any rhymn or reason to the updates, you'll have single mobs being fixed in dozens of zones at once and no one zone will be completed any time soon that way, but the database as a whole will have 10+ members making active and intelligent contributions instead of the 3 members we have currently running PEQ.

Now don't get me wrong, we will have likely dozens and dozens of posts about how to fix things, or things that are off, etc etc, and most of them will, frankly, be crap. Which is why I suggest that PEQ team skims the forums for intelligent updates and picks them out of the mess and puts them in.

Originally Posted by cavedude

"There are probably hundreds of databases just like this out there already... and do you know how much "feedback" we get? Barely any."

(Randomly interjected so hopefully that doesn't break the flow of the writing)

This I think is more that hte 'hundreds of databases' are entirely pet projects that are private databases or not 'official works' of the emulator project... PEQ is 'THE' emulator database... If this were posted and asked for updates alot more people would try to help I'd bet, because they don't feel like they are trying to just help out some random person with one thing that isn't for the community but just for them... In contrast the PEQ database is assumed to be the community's database and thus people would know their work is for the betterment of everyone, not just the betterment of one particular person or server.

Now, as a tangent, to go to CaveDudes comment on being flooded with random support requests and complaints by newbins that complain that xx zone way out in expansion land that isn't complete is 'messed up and I fall for 10k damage when I hit a mob!' or some such. To this I'd recommend two things,

1: Make a sticky post/giant banner/ some other thing that says that these zones aren't supported and shouldn't be played unless you are trying to fix them.

2: Now, for all those true newbins that never read that stuff and post why EQ doesn't work after patching just like they read somewhere, get another person into the PEQ team whose sole job it is to take in those complaints, sift through them and get what is good and what isn't, reply to them, etc... Basically a liason between the PEQ staff and the other people, because honestly that is exactly what it feels like... PEQ team is 'them' and the rest is 'us' and we have no idea what is or is not going on in the world of database development... If we had an intermediary it would be good for many different reasons, for example we'd have someone who would be very active in replying to our questions about whatever with the database, and potentially more importantly, whomever currently does this (I believe that would be you Cavedude) would be able to do the work on PEQ and not have to hassle with the crazies, and/or spend all yer time essentially doing customer support.
Everyone's happy.

(EDIT:: Interjection, I dont mean it to seem like we have no voice, because I know we can post updates and suggestios and bug reports, my point was we don't know if you are actually doing anything about what we say or not because we have no feedback on our feedback that I've seen unless you're one of the few that gets a line about how they contributed in a release note somewhere or in a random forum somewhere, but those are fairly rare in the grand scheme of things)

Now I don't know if anyone 'wants' that responsibility, but thats what makes sense to me.

Also, to the other part you mentioned John; What I've been asking for all this time is an actually full release of 'any' database rather than withholding updates that aren't quite 'finished' yet until the 3 guys are done working on them, it seems such a waste to me to see people that could be doing real work on the spawns and loot and factions and whatnot of a database instead going back and replacing missing doors in zone xyz that nobody really needs in the first place... Get all the essential stuff in, then worry about doors and who is selling what (no offense intended to those that did these, it's still more than alot of other people, and I have nothing but respect to anyone that does any work on the database).

Recap::

So essentially All I was asking for was to have a full release of everything PEQ has right now, including allt he innacurate and messed up zones for 'most of the zones our client supports' as per Cavedude, and I was merely listing all the ways that would help us with what we were already doing, I wasn't saying that people don't scan the forums for updates, or that people don't have the ability to post fixes and updates, merely all this would be far far better if we actually had stuff to work with, rather than going over the already finely tuned stuff that PEQ releases... they seem to 'make sure we're happy with it before we release it' then complain that we don't post enough fixes to it... Just seems kind of backwards to me, if you want people to help you fix it, release it when it still needs serious work, otherwise only the very very select few with mastery of; the database, hardcoding, and everquest the game, will be able to fix anything.