MOnk mitigation is out of whack

[gernblan]

Monks are too powerful, they are doing the same or better damage than rogues, far far more than warriors and at level 70 are incredibly powerful compared to other classes.

Monks, don't hate me, but you need a nerf, bad.

[Lalolyen]

When it comes down to pure melee dps, the percentages should be about like this:
Using 2handed General Weapons
100% - Bizurker
86% - Paladin
84% - Shadowknight
79% - Monk
74% - Warrior
66% - Beastlord
52% - Ranger

Using 1hand General Weapons (without dual wield)
100% - Paladin
94% - Shadowknight
76% - Monk
74% - Ranger
71% - Warrior
35% - Beastlord
22% - Bizurker (unless they've upgraded this since TSS)

Utilizing dual wield and double attack:
100% - Monk
71% - Warrior
66% - Ranger
42% - Beastlord

[KLS]

Yeah, melee balance has made a lot of strides toward balancing them recently, still need to rework the melee damage formula and the hit calc formula and it should be pretty good hopefully.

[Congdar]

Originally Posted by Lalolyen

Using 2handed General Weapons
100% - Bizurker
86% - Paladin
84% - Shadowknight
79% - Monk
74% - Warrior
66% - Beastlord
52% - Ranger

Using 1hand General Weapons (without dual wield)
100% - Paladin
94% - Shadowknight
76% - Monk
74% - Ranger
71% - Warrior
35% - Beastlord
22% - Bizurker (unless they've upgraded this since TSS)

Utilizing dual wield and double attack:
100% - Monk
71% - Warrior
66% - Ranger
42% - Beastlord

Nice table, where does the rogue fit in? Is there another table showing who takes the most of a beating? When I left Live during PoP, Monks were pretty soft for the amount of damage they put out. Clerics would run outta mana healing a monk, where a warrior could take all kinds of damage. There's the tradeoff, power vs. tankability. Monks don't need a nerf and didn't on Live either.

[gernblan]

I'm afraid they do. Currently, they are almost unkillable, able to take out our largest group bosses solo.

You say that's by design?

I'd certainly hope not!

[Congdar]

Do monks have some special damage table separate from other melee? If so then maybe tweek it, but if monks use the same calcs as the rest of the melee's then you can't just go and say if(monk) { nerf } cuz that is wrong.

If changes are to be made lets compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges i.e. monk with <whatever melee> == same level, same aa's, same weapon ratios, same buffs etc. And who decides... and what says that table above is correct?

[gernblan]

My point is, that monks (and SKs also, actually) are not working right in relation to other classes.

This isn't EQ live. To that end, the emulation from class to class may not be (read: is not) perfect... and if a class or two is still wonky then hell yes it may need tweaked even though others may not.

Let me guess: you play a monk. You love having some lifetap weapon and never dying right? Is that why you're being so defensive?

*I* run a server and it's my interest that my server works and is fair and balanced for all classes.

Period.

I could care less who gets nerfed or what. For the sake of my players and so that the real money I am sinking into this emu is well spent, I want a real game.

If that means nerfing the living crap out of monks, so be it

[drakelord]

What I've noticed about combat in general since playing live again is that the melee combat formulas are screwed up slightly. When I say this, I mean in terms of accuracy/evasion. When I play on private servers from Eqemu, I miss like, 50% of my shots, despite what my dex/agi/str, etc are. On live, I rarely miss a shot with 75 dex.

This is extremely prevalent at the first few levels. It usually takes me forever to kill fire beetles because I keep missing the damn things. But on live, they die in seconds.

[gernblan]

Yes drakelord, it goes to show you that I am right.. the formulas for classes need some work still, at ALL levels.

[Ueguvil]

Originally Posted by gernblan

My point is, that monks (and SKs also, actually) are not working right in relation to other classes.

This isn't EQ live. To that end, the emulation from class to class may not be (read: is not) perfect... and if a class or two is still wonky then hell yes it may need tweaked even though others may not.

Let me guess: you play a monk. You love having some lifetap weapon and never dying right? Is that why you're being so defensive?

*I* run a server and it's my interest that my server works and is fair and balanced for all classes.

Period.

I could care less who gets nerfed or what. For the sake of my players and so that the real money I am sinking into this emu is well spent, I want a real game.

If that means nerfing the living crap out of monks, so be it

Why don't you just take that lifetap weapon out? You seem to be the one getting so defensive. I'm not saying you're wrong, but going around covering your ears yelling "I'm right, period." isn't a great way to approach anything.

[Lalolyen]

Honestly, the question also relates to "where does bards fit in" as well.

The answer is, they don't because their pure melee (not counting disiplines and abilities) is so minute they aren't included.

That list came from a raid parse that averaged 10 high end raids 2 years ago. That means slays, backstabs, spell damage, etc was removed from the overall dps rates, pure melee is what you see.

If you want to toss in abilities and tomes, then Paladins would beat everyone being when they are fighting an undead mob, their dps is about 500% of that of a bizurker.

I miss like, 50% of my shots, despite what my dex/agi/str, etc are. On live, I rarely miss a shot with 75 dex.

That is because the ranger class gets an accuracy bonus when using ranged attacks.

Likewise other hybrids gets those "hybrid" bonuses as well, such as pal and sk's get 2hand accuracy bonus (on top of a damage bonus same with rangers with their bows), bards get dual wield accuracy bonuses, but I think they have some kind of a damage penalty I cannot remember that or if they got rid of it at some point.

[gernblan]

Right... so perhaps this stuff needs to be seriously re-tuned in the code.

[Lalolyen]

Well.... Lets get to work =)

I've provided the formulas, lets get some base changes and start testing =P

Devs are few, demands are many... Time we help out a bit =P

[drakelord]

When I say shot, I didn't literally mean with a ranger. I was still a melee class, tuned exactly the same way as I was on the private server. But, yea. Where are those formulas?

[Congdar]

If you want to toss in abilities and tomes, then Paladins would beat everyone being when they are fighting an undead mob, their dps is about 500% of that of a bizurker.

That's the thing about comparing apples to apples. The testing cannot include Disciplines and Spells or undead specific targets if you are testing the damange and defense formulas of melee. It would be a different test for comparing the damage Disciplines/Spells and defense Disciplines/Spells of melees. Ultimateley the different tests would have a possible "combined power" rating.

So... does each class have a separate formula for melee? If so that would make it easier. If not, much harder.

Do you lower melee ability to balance thier spell power or lower spell power to balance their melee ability?

Wizards have minimal melee so they are ballanced out in spell power. Some classes have pets, melee and spells. A balance of all three combined is needed. Warriors, Monks... melee and disciplines. Shadowknights, Paladins... melee, disciplines and spells but Shadowknights also have pets! It isn't as easy as saying 'nerf monks' to balance their power against other classes.

Separating the tests like this could show that the damage/defense formulas are working fine and that the special Disciplines and Spells are over powered and then the correct thing could be tweaked.