Please give me my country back you lying fucktards...

[RexChaos]

They shouldn't even be running this country right now. For your enjoyment...

http://www.ericblumrich.com/gta.html

[VooodooKiller28]

LMAO
Yah Kick em out of the country
Stupid bush and the ugly lady
Bush is a descriminatory bastard!!!

[KhaN]

Forum rules
6) Do not use our boards to accuse someone or a group of people for any damage that has been caused on you.

I wonder if this apply to a president ... sorry, French humor ...

[RexChaos]

Forum rules
6) Do not use our boards to accuse someone or a group of people for any damage that has been caused on you.

I wonder if this apply to a president ... sorry, French humor ...

I hate to say it, but that Frenchie is funny. Hehe... ;)

Seriously though. Bush is a moron. And since this is an "off topic" forum, I'm ranting. :) I just can't respect a president that sends people to kill other people and/or die just so he can make some money for his vice president and the rest of the stockholders of Halliburton (sp?)...

Before I say anything that may get me in big trouble, I'm gonna go now. :)

[Lasiel]

War's always been big business. The rich get richer and the working poor get sent off as pawns in some bullshite 'police action'.

[Spike]

Politics.... :lol:

[RexChaos]

War's always been big business. The rich get richer and the working poor get sent off as pawns in some bullshite 'police action'.

This is true, but I don't liek them attempting to cover it up as "terrorist hunting" or "humanitarian efforts". What a crock.

We have plenty of problems in our own country. How about we just keep our 87 BILLION dollars here instead of rebuilding a country that hates us anyway?

A couple more things...the media. I love how they tried to garner sympathy when those 4 "civilians" were killed and burned. Turns out those "civilians" were all former military and were working as mercenaries. Sorry...they were being paid hazard pay and they got killed. Risks of the job bucko.

And now there are three sisters in Iraq...one gets killed, so their parents are making a big effort to get the other two sent home. Nope. No. Nuh uh...sorry. You stay. You signed up...you're on my tax dollar...that's your job. You knew the risks involved. I mean if there were no risks involved that job would consist of exercising and shooting off weapons... Where do I sign up for that job???

Once you make your bed, it's time to lie in it...

[Raerlynn]

Umm....no.

Those were American contractors. Not mercenaries. The government doesn't set up it's own power and networks and crap, they sell a contract to the highest bidder. In fact, the company that employs those people employs some of my coworkers. So yeah, real cute.

Terrorist hunting or not, it's about politics. It's about the ability look good all over the world. If we don't follow through we get the same respect from the UN that we gave to them.

I'm glad to see you hoave absolutely no respect for the military, considering that my father is also former military. Does that give him the right to be dragged through streets and burned?

You're just sick.

[RexChaos]

Umm....no.

Those were American contractors. Not mercenaries. The government doesn't set up it's own power and networks and crap, they sell a contract to the highest bidder. In fact, the company that employs those people employs some of my coworkers. So yeah, real cute.

Terrorist hunting or not, it's about politics. It's about the ability look good all over the world. If we don't follow through we get the same respect from the UN that we gave to them.

I'm glad to see you hoave absolutely no respect for the military, considering that my father is also former military. Does that give him the right to be dragged through streets and burned?

You're just sick.


I'm afraid that you my friend are wrong.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/nation/8324623.htm

Just a little snippet in case you don't want to read the whole thing:

"With the U.S. military stretched thin, they have lucrative jobs - civilian security forces can earn more than $15,000 a month - defusing roadside bombs, escorting food convoys, protecting visiting dignitaries and even guarding U.S. administrator Paul Bremer."

They're contractors alright... for Blackwater USA. Blackwater USA is a contracted "security force". They're mercenaries. Do some fact checking. 15 grand a month? Yeah...my heart bleeds for them. Really...

I have respect where respect is due. I don't feel bad because people died in their line of work. It happens to police officers and nobody starts a campaign to remove them from their work.

Do I think it's wrong that they dragged the bodies through the streets and hung them from a bridge? I sure do. THAT shows that they have no respect for us being there. So why are we there? To make some money...hence my post.

[KhaN]

The bad thing US done was rename "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" WTF !? and tomorrow you will "Freedom Kiss" your GF ?!

More seriously,

/Berserk ON
Those were American contractors. Not mercenaries. The government doesn't set up it's own power and networks and crap, they sell a contract to the highest bidder. In fact, the company that employs those people employs some of my coworkers. So yeah, real cute.
Stop watch CNN and get some REAL info~
I never speak politic, espeacially when its about the politic of another country, so i will speak here about economy.
Esso (French petrol company and now European company) was in contract with iraqi before US invasion (Yes, invasion not war ~thx~). US petrol companies wasnt implemented in Iraqi. At the start of iraqi reconstruction, Bush say "Sorry dude, you didnt fight with us, so you cant continu to make your buisness".

War's always been big business. The rich get richer and the working poor get sent off as pawns in some bullshite 'police action'.
Problem of most US is they still mix military and economy. War is not a big buiness, why ? What is a buiness, a buiness is an activity from which you will make money, mean that at end of your activity, you will have more money than start, yes ? Ok, lets make the count, Clinton leave his fonction with a tons of bucks. Bush arrive, make his war to sastifate the "christian ultranationnalist" (dont know if its the good term to call them, made a basic french translation) who permit him to become president and when he will leave, US founds will be in NEG. As always when USA is in neg, they devalue dollar (Thx btw~, im making a ton of money with this situation), but that wont change the thing that Bush will leave with US founds in neg. So please, dont say War is buisness.

Take a look in past, lost of countries have try to conquer the world, Roman empire, Byzantine Empire, Napoleon, European colonisation, american esclavagism, always mixing economy/war, know what ? that never worked.

/Berserk OFF

This is all but a flame against USA, i have lived 3 years in NY, my GF is US (From NY, knicks>all), and if you dont take food in fact (Starbuck, LOL), i would love to live again in USA. But French ans US are like Boyfriend and Girlfriend, always catfighting and helping each other when situation is really bad because they love each other.

[RexChaos]

Freedom fries....what a retarded idea....

I have nothing else to say. Khan wrapped it up nicely.

/salute Khan

[militec1]

You know, that's pretty ignorant of you to single out Bush as a corrupt politician when the last administration was guilty of much worse. Y'all lost the election, live with it. Someone had to lose, and I for one am happy that Gore's retarded ass didn't make it into the White House. Y'all seem to want to bad mouth my country, and the President. However, as this country was founded on the fact that we have certain rights given to us by our Creator, I have no problem with that; you have a right to speak your mind. However, if it's that bad here, why don't you leave? I'm obviously not talking to those who are in other countries, but to those who do live here; Do you think that the world would be a better place without the United States?

As for the war in Iraq, okay so what if it's fought over oil? Wars have been fought for economic reasons going back through the centuries. As much as I may or may not like it, without oil, nothing moves. And if you're going to accuse the Bush administration of "selling out" over oil, let's make sure that you also include the Clinton administration in that accusation. Al Gore sold the strategic oil reserves to Occidental Petroleum Company when he was vice president. So what you say? Al Gore's father was a board member of Occidental Petroleum, and Al Gore was heavily invested in it so that he directly profited from the sale. Oh wait, he's a democrat, he gets a pass.

Wake up, all of the politicians are corrupt. If you think that Bush is that much worse than anyone else, you're asleep at the switch. I don't necessarily agree with what has been done in Iraq either, but I'm don't think it's right to label the president a "f*cktard" either, especially in a forum that is open to the entire world. As an American, I think we should keep our dissent at home, I think that this is the greatest nation on earth, and if you don't think so, then tell me; Where do you think the world would be if the U.S. didn't exist when Hitler, or Lenin, or Stalin, or (insert your favorite dictator here) decided that certain people didn't have a right to exist?

I thought about keeping quiet on this, but I for one, am sick and tired of people not having any respect for my country, and my President. And that's it, like it or not, he is the President. If you can't respect the man, I can understand that, but we all should try to respect the office.

Semper fi.

[RexChaos]

Y'all lost the election, live with it.

I won't attack you personally, but I will generalize:

I wasn't in an election. I am neither Republican nor Democrat, but it's nice that you assumed I wasn't a republican. As for "losing"...tell me...how does one lose an election when one garners more of the populations votes? And it just so happens that ONE state made a big SNAFU on the process allowing for such an error. Coincidence that G's brother was governor? I don't think so.

Someone had to lose, and I for one am happy that Gore's retarded ass didn't make it into the White House. Y'all seem to want to bad mouth my country, and the President.

But it's okay to bad mouth the then vice president? Interesting logic. I assume you learn that in basic training? Maybe not, but I still think it's interesting. Okay not really. It's not interesting at all to me.

However, as this country was founded on the fact that we have certain rights given to us by our Creator, I have no problem with that; you have a right to speak your mind. However, if it's that bad here, why don't you leave? I'm obviously not talking to those who are in other countries, but to those who do live here; Do you think that the world would be a better place without the United States?

I love that ignorant line - "If it's so bad here, why don't you leave?" That's one of my favorite lines from what I affectionately refer to as "redneck politics". I won't assume where you're from, but I mostly have heard that sentiment from people in the south. I'm not saying all southerners are rednecks. I know some nice ones. I'm just saying that when I see/hear that phrase all I can think of is some yokel with some bib overalls and bare feet chewing on a corn cob pipe.

As for the war in Iraq, okay so what if it's fought over oil?

My point was that they LIED about why they went there. So there's your good old commander in chief, sending people off to die and not even having the common decency to tell them why. He's a good ol' boy!

Al Gore sold the strategic oil reserves to Occidental Petroleum Company when he was vice president. So what you say? Al Gore's father was a board member of Occidental Petroleum, and Al Gore was heavily invested in it so that he directly profited from the sale. Oh wait, he's a democrat, he gets a pass.

No he gets a pass because he didn't tell us that we were selling oil to "combat terrorism" or "to liberate your automobiles"! And can you please back up your facts? Maybe some links I could click on where I could read about this. I do like to keep well informed.

I won't quote any more of your post, but I'll sum it up as "Yes, Rex. I agree Bush is corrupt. I'm concerned that if people in other countries find out we don't like our president or what our country is doing, they won't think we're powerful and/or in control of everything. I don't agree with what is going on in Iraq, but I feel I need to defend my president out of a sense of patriotism."

Don't bring Stalin into this if you're trying to make a point. He was our ally in WW2...

I think that about sums it up.

[sheck]

However, as this country was founded on the fact that we have certain rights given to us by our Creator, I have no problem with that; you have a right to speak your mind. However, if it's that bad here, why don't you leave?
Because it used to not be bad here! It used to be a country I was proud to live in! It really bugs me when people say "why don't you leave?" What is that shit? This country is as much mine as it is yours and as it is GWB's. Why is it so surprising to you that people in this country are disgruntled? Our president (the man, not the office) got into office with less than HALF the popular vote, and almost immeadiately went to war with Iraq, picking up where his father left off. That man is supposed to be representing the people of the United States - he doesn't represent me in the least - that's where my frustration comes from.

[KhaN]

After my post i decided to not answer but sorry, this one always make me laught everytime a US resident say it.

Where do you think the world would be if the U.S. didn't exist when Hitler, or Lenin, or Stalin, or (insert your favorite dictator here) decided that certain people didn't have a right to exist?

And i always answer : Where do you think the world would be if france didnt exist when united kingdom decided certain people didnt have the right to be free ? LMAO

[ltlruss]

I just want to thank you militec1 for that post... I wasn't going to post either, but it has really been bothering me. I accept that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, being able to express it is what makes this country so great.

I don't want to drag this out into a really long post. This is a very sensitive topic for me and I could discuss it all day long. I just thought I would give my opinion on the subject.

Now, whether or not our country's reason for going to war (WMD's) was correct or not, after seeing what was happening to the people over there, I think that we had every right to go over there and do what we could to free them. Removing Saddam from power was the best thing that could happen to the Iraqi people.

I have a lot of respect for our President. I think that if Gore had been elected, our country would be much worse off. I respect that after Sept. 11, he waited until he had enought intel before launching an attack against anyone. I honestly thought that we would start blowing things up the next day :) .

Again, I believe that everyone is entitled to his own opinion, so please let me have mine.... I think that there has been way too much flaming lately, and don't believe that someone expressing his opinion warrants being flamed.

Well, I just wanted to get a few things off my chest. Sorry if my thoughts are a little jumbled. Like I said, this is a sensitive subject to me and I just kind of throw things down as I think of them....

[RexChaos]

Things I agree with:

Removing Saddam from power

Attempting to help the Iraqi people rebuild their country and put a democratic government in place


That's it.

Not to flame you ltruss, but really...how much worse off would our country have been if Gore was elected president? What do you envision?

As for Bush waiting on intel...yeah. He waited alright. And then took the war to the wrong country. Our troops should have been in Afghanistan looking for terrorists, but since there's no money to be made there, we didn't focus our efforts there.

It's all a matter of deception and the fleecing of the American people. You were fooled, I was fooled, and the current presidency did it.

If I'm so wrong, please...dispute my claims and give me some proof. Thanks.

[sheck]

Bush arrive, make his war to sastifate the "christian ultranationnalist" (dont know if its the good term to call them, made a basic french translation)

Yeah, that sounds like a good a term as any. Another would be "fat rich white dudes".

[ltlruss]

First off, I don't think you're wrong.... It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I don't think I'm wrong, it's my opinion.

I feel that if Gore had been President, he wouldn't have taken any action. I feel that he would basically have invited terrorists to attack our country. This is all based on my own feelings. Obviously there's no telling how things would have worked out had he been President.

I agree that we should have kept more focus on getting the terrorists in Afganistan. But, just because the press wasn't covering it like they were covering Iraq doesn't mean that we weren't still there trying to root them out.

I think that WMD's were a legitimate reason for going to Iraq. They would pose a serious and immediate threat to us. Ok, I know that we haven't found any there.... I don't necessarily think that means that they're not there though. If Saddam had destroyed them, why didn't he offer proof? We gave him more than enough chances. If he wanted to, he could bury his whole program out in the desert and we would never find it unless someone took us to them. I don't know that I'll ever be convinced that they were or weren't there.... I still believe that we had other reasons for going there anyway....

I don't have any proof to offer as these are my own opinions based on what I've seen and the experience that I have with how some things work.

[Jezebell]

Where do you think the world would be if the U.S. didn't exist when Hitler, or Lenin, or Stalin, or (insert your favorite dictator here) decided that certain people didn't have a right to exist?

I find this comment particularly amusing. Have you ever had a conversation with someone from a different country regarding this topic? For instance my wife is Russian. Their point of view on all of that completely differs from what we believe to have happened. They say they were doing fine with Hitler and didn't need our help. We are fed what the government wants us to know, not what actually is happening or took place, history is written by the victors. Just like all the other times the US took it upon themselves to police the rest of the world instead of fixing our own problems because we are so "righteous". We need to get our familys out of Iraq and let them deal with it on their own, if we are lucky they will all kill themselves through civil war and there won't be an Iraq anymore...problem solved. The US needs to stop sticking its nose into other countries business, I think the other countries of the world and the UN can look out for themselves, they don't need us butting in.

As for President Bush.....all I can say is....rofl...what a joke, this whole thing is because of his father and money, its a personal vendetta against Saddam and he is trying to clean up the mess he made by invading Iraq.

I am a military veteran, and I support our government...when they are fighting for something right...but our family's and friends are over there right now dying for nothing....the death tolls are increasing every month, the Iraqis are getting more and more violent, they don't want us there, so lets leave.

I could go on and on but I will leave it there....

[RexChaos]

http://www.luclin.org/

It should be right on the front page, but in case it's not...

http://www.luclin.org/files/moslad/fun/goering_quote.jpg

[romoshi]

First of all to Rex Chaos, that link proposed a good point. It is true that every leader no matter what government uses that tactic to get the people to enter war. Just about every major war in 300 years had leaders using tactics like that.
Also on the previous post about us helping Russia when they didnt need it. I dont think it says even in our history books that we helped Russia. It was more like they helped us in a way since Hitler attacking them caused him to fight a two front war. It never said that either America or Britain sent troops over when Russia was invaded by Hitler.

[Jezebell]

My point was that Russia could have deafeated Hitler without the US interfering.

[Shadow-Wolf]

Heh all this talk about WWII and the Cold War after i got done taking history lessons about it :), first of all all three contries needed help so each joined the an alliance, The three most import contries in the alliance were Russia,The United States, and Great Brit. The war was won blah blah then that led to the Cold War when The Big Three split germany into 4 sections(Yes four, since france was an allie in the war a chunk was givin to them) and the capitol of Germany was also split into 4, but there was a problem the capitol was in the USSR's section of Germany, later on this led to problems stalin started(like when he closed all main roads to berlin and american and brit transport can get food to civilians). Soon the arms race began both countries spent lots of money to create bigger and bigger bombs, but not a single fire was shot between russia,the united states, or russia all countries were affraid that if one sent a bomb then the other would and they would repeat until the world was completely destroyed. Eventualy durring the arms race(and the space race) the ussr ran out of funds to create weapons and the USSR collapsed. And about russians saying they didn't need us, is that why they joined the alliance? Most Americans I know would probley say we didn't need them, but I think we just needed eachother.

[Jezebell]

I'm sure they joined the Alliance for political reasons not because it was necessary. And don't forget that the history books you are reading were written by Americans.

[RexChaos]

Due to Hitler insisting on invading Russia during winter...I think the Russians would have done fine on their front by themselves. :)

It was just way too big an area for Germany to control really.

Reminds me of that line from the Princess Bride,

"Never get involved in a land war in Asia...but only slightly less well known is this - Never go up against a Sicilian, when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha.... (thud)"

That's a great movie :)

[JohnRev]

L-O-L :!: :!: :!: :!:

[militec1]

Yeah, that's what I would expect from someone from France. How many of our (U.S.) boys are buried over there? How many times did we bail your limp wristed country out? Except for the French underground in WWII, and the dedicated soldiers of the French military, it's always the same with you people and your leaders. Spineless.

You can laugh now because you were able to be born, and that, is in no small part due to the role that the U.S. has played in bailng out your sad excuse for a nation. But, now that the money is to be made somewhere else, you all seem to have found another "John" to attach your fortunes to in Iraq. Bummer that all of those French oil contracts won't be honored, eh?

I'm not offended by your comments, merely saddened by them and the ignorance they demonstrate.

[Stealth_raptor]

Militec...do you think it's right to steal?

[militec1]

Militec...do you think it's right to steal?

Of course not, but I'm sure that there is more to your question than just that, yes?

[militec1]

Jez-

I hosed the quote thing, hopefully you can follow it. I'll add them where appropriate.

"Have you ever had a conversation with someone from a different country regarding this topic? For instance my wife is Russian. Their point of view on all of that completely differs from what we believe to have happened. They say they were doing fine with Hitler and didn't need our help. "

Yes I have had discussions with people from other countries, including Jews who still bear the number tattoo from the concentration camps. I agree that each point of view is different and skewed towards one's bias to a point. I won't argue with your wife, she was there, I wasn't.


"We are fed what the government wants us to know, not what actually is happening or took place, history is written by the victors."

We agree 100%, and an example would be the lie that the "Civil War" was fought over slavery, when in fact it was a completely unconstitutional undertaking by those who wanted to eliminate the sovereignty of the states as voluntary members of the union and force them to belong to a monolithic nation. The history books say that it was fought over slavery, but the abolition of slavery was used as justification for Lincoln's illegal invasion of the South. But again, the victors write the history books, and here we are. Before you call me any names, ask yourselves this question: If the civil war was fought over slavery, then why was the war fought for more than two years before any mention of the emancipation proclamation was made?

Anyway, I've steered from the point, I'm back now.

"Just like all the other times the US took it upon themselves to police the rest of the world instead of fixing our own problems because we are so "righteous". We need to get our familys out of Iraq and let them deal with it on their own, if we are lucky they will all kill themselves through civil war and there won't be an Iraq anymore...problem solved. The US needs to stop sticking its nose into other countries business, I think the other countries of the world and the UN can look out for themselves, they don't need us butting in."

I sort of agree, but not completely. First, I think that the U.N. is just about the most useless, inept, and corrupt institution on earth. Second, while I don't necessarily think that the U.S. should be the world's "policeman," I do think that as members of the human race, and U.S. citizens simply by the accident of birth and the grace of God, we do have some responsibility to do what's right when it's in our power to do so. I don't remember asking not to be born in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Cambodia when Pol Pot and the Kmer Rouge came to power, I don't remember asking to be a U.S. citizen when I got my chance to live here. Neither, I am sure, did those who were the victims of Saddam, Ho Chi Min, Hitler, Stalin or any of a number of murderers.

Do I think that the occupation of Iraq is going as it should? I can't answer that complety, I don't have the information that the President has. From where I sit, and what I do know, or at least think I know, would I have handled it differently? I don't know.

I too served my country. I am a former Marine, and proud to call myself a citizen of this great nation. I originally posted this because while I have no issue with honest and open dissent, I don't think it's right to disrespect the office of the President, no matter who the current occupant is.

Holy crap, what a discussion this has turned into. I thought I was just here to play a fricking game.

[militec1]

Our president (the man, not the office) got into office with less than HALF the popular vote, and almost immeadiately went to war with Iraq,

Hmm, interesting. Funny you don't mention that Bill Clinton won with only 43% of the vote in his election. See, that's part of the problem, people don't take the time to figure out how the system works. Yes, Al Gore got more of the POPULAR vote, however that is not what wins elections. George Bush won the election by having more votes in the ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

Why is that important? Because the electoral college was a stroke of genius by the Founders of this nation. You see, without the electoral college, the states would not have equal representation in the election for a president, which is the only true form of national referendum we have in this country. Without the electoral college, a presidential candidate would only have to run for re-election in the most populated states, thereby removing equal access to the process from the less populated states. For example, there are 30 odd milllion people living in California, probably close to that number in New York and Florida as well, throw in a couple more of the most populated states and VOILA! Instant win, without having to even have your name mentioned in places like Nebraska, Idaho, Iowa, or any of the majority of states. (Which, by the way, is almost exactly what happened in the 2000 election, look at a map of who won what states, and you'll see that what I'm saying is true). So, now that we've covered the electoral college, let's look at how GWB actually did. If memory serves me right, GWB won 30 out of 50 states, and 60% does qualify as a landslide.

As for your rant about going to war immediately, well let's examine the word "immediately."

\Im*me"di*ate*ly\, adv. 2. Without interval of time; without delay; promptly; instantly; at once.

George Bush took office in January of 2001. It is now 2004, and we have just, within the past week, marked the anniversary of the war in Iraq. Even if you're counting in dog years, that's a really long "immediately."

[Memener]

this dosent have anything to do with what yall are talking about. I dont want to get into it some things were good somethings are bad.


that video file didnt work for me :)Also I think is it good to hear peoples opinion on this topic......

EDIT: LOL sorry i just got off work (big truck today) kinda tried...


Anyway what i ment to say was any one eles having any probles with that video i click on it it loads but dosent play... at the botton (IE) there a bar that lights 4 boxes and then just sits there... lol

[Jezebell]

I do think that as members of the human race, and U.S. citizens simply by the accident of birth and the grace of God, we do have some responsibility to do what's right when it's in our power to do so.

Who's to say whats right and whats wrong? You? Me? the government? society? what gives that entity that right?

How do you know what was actually happening in Iraq when Saddam was in power? Because we read it in newspapers or heard it on TV? Because our government told us? Fow all we know the majority of the Iraqi people could have been content with their life when Saddam was in power and now we have gone in there and torn the place up. Unless you lived in Iraq when Saddam was dictator how can you speak of what was going on in that country?

I have no problem with saying a president of the United States of America is a jerkoff. He is not a god to be idolized or worshipped. He is a human being and a politician (nuff said imo) and they make mistakes, they are not perfect, lets not pretend that they are.

[militec1]

Who's to say whats right and whats wrong? You? Me? the government? society? what gives that entity that right?

Speaking as a born again, Bible believing Christian, I believe the Bible to be the basis of right and wrong, and I do believe in absolute right and wrong. That's not to say that I've always done what's right and avoided the wrong, there's plenty on my plate for me to account for, but that doesn't diminish my belief one bit.

As I read your post, I think we're closer in opinion than might be apparent. I too have problems with the government and its "ever moving" target of what is right and wrong based on what party occupies the White House, but nonetheless, while I can honestly say that I distrust my government, I do love my country, and I do have friends over in Iraq who I would like to see again.

I have no problem with saying a president of the United States of America is a jerkoff. He is not a god to be idolized or worshipped. He is a human being and a politician (nuff said imo) and they make mistakes, they are not perfect, lets not pretend that they are.

Neither do I think that any man, or man made institution is to be idolized or worshipped, but I just see too many people who, like me, have no idea what it's like to be in GW's shoes, we don't have the information he has, we don't have the responsibilities, nor do we have the stress. I can't imagine what that job must be like, Iwould never want it. But, like it or not, the guy made a decision, he did what leaders are supposed to do, he led. I personally think he's too laid back about things, too restrained, too planned, but I respect him as a leader who has been appointed over me. As a Christian, I know that he's not there by accident, God's not sitting there saying "Oh crap, how did GW get there?" No, for some reason he's meant to be there right now, and like it or not, as my president, I owe him my respect, as far as is morally right.

How do you know what was actually happening in Iraq when Saddam was in power? Because we read it in newspapers or heard it on TV? Because our government told us? Fow all we know the majority of the Iraqi people could have been content with their life when Saddam was in power and now we have gone in there and torn the place up. Unless you lived in Iraq when Saddam was dictator how can you speak of what was going on in that country?

As for how I know what happened in Iraq when Saddam was in power, again, while I am too old to be fighting over there, I do have friends who were and are there. They saw what the people had, and what they had to deal with, and saw what they'd been through. They saw that the media over was portraying things as worse than they were, sometimes ignoring what the thugs of the Baath party were doing. They saw what they saw, and I trust my friends way more than I would trust CNN, NBC, or any of the news media outlets.

You mentioned in one of your posts the family and friends that we have over there. They're the point, aren't they? While we're discussing this from the comfort of our homes, they're living in a sand filled hell. Yeah, the truth is that I believe that they're doing something that matters, something that will count in the big picture, and I am biased towards the belief that this life is not the only one we live. Regardless, they need our prayers and support.

Jez, we're not as far apart as our posts seem to indicate, I think we are just coming at this from two different directions. I respect your opinion about the president, I don't agree with it, and in fact I think it's wrong, but I respect the fact that you have one, and that you have the right to voice it. As do I.

[militec1]

How do you know what was actually happening in Iraq when Saddam was in power? Because we read it in newspapers or heard it on TV? Because our government told us? Fow all we know the majority of the Iraqi people could have been content with their life when Saddam was in power and now we have gone in there and torn the place up. Unless you lived in Iraq when Saddam was dictator how can you speak of what was going on in that country?

I missed this one. I don't read newspapers, nor do I watch TV. The media has an agenda, and I have no time for "newspeak."

[Stealth_raptor]

What I meant by stealing before was how the U.S 'controls' Iraq's oil and is allowed to say who gets it. I don't see the label United State of America over where Iraq is on the atlas.

And if we WANT to go over the topic of 'whether or not George Bush is an idiot' i'm sure I can find a couple quotes here and there. :wink:


Edit: LOL..I have to add this description of George W. Bush Jr here.

"Bush is unusually incurious, abnormally unintelligent, amazingly inarticulate, fantastically uncultured, extraordinarily uneducated, and apparently quite proud of all these things."

[RexChaos]

Our president (the man, not the office) got into office with less than HALF the popular vote, and almost immeadiately went to war with Iraq,

Hmm, interesting. Funny you don't mention that Bill Clinton won with only 43% of the vote in his election. See, that's part of the problem, people don't take the time to figure out how the system works. Yes, Al Gore got more of the POPULAR vote, however that is not what wins elections. George Bush won the election by having more votes in the ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

And he wouldn't have won those ELECTORAL COLLEGE votes if the Florida election hadn't have been rigged/sabotaged/fucked with. That is the point that I think Sheck was making. The election was messed with by outside people and by people who STOLE THE RIGHTS OF AMERICANS TO VOTE. Don't tell me about how something is genius and then not address the issue of how that genius system was corrupted by people in power.

Florida has 25 Electoral votes available. Bush had a total of 271 Electoral votes. Gore had a total of 266 (or 267) Electoral votes. So don't sit there and tell that the Florida scamming didn't matter...

[RexChaos]

Speaking as a born again, Bible believing Christian, I believe the Bible to be the basis of right and wrong,
(EDIT)
As a Christian, I know that he's not there by accident, God's not sitting there saying "Oh crap, how did GW get there?" No, for some reason he's meant to be there right now, and like it or not, as my president, I owe him my respect, as far as is morally right.

So what you're saying is that God's Electoral votes are worth about 269 or so? Ahhh...I see. So God got Bush elected then. Oh that makes sense now. I was wondering who had more reason than any to get him elected.


God - "Well, now that you're in office, I'd like you to go kill some heathens for me."

Bush - "I'ma git me some them muslims! Should I say I'm tryin' ta help 'em?"

God - "Well of course you should. You know as well as I do that throughout history the Christians have been blamed (rightfully so) for some of the worst atrocities. So let's keep it on the DL, GW."

Bush - "Shor thing God! I'ma kill me some muslims and git me some oil! Yeehaw!"

[sheck]

As a Christian, I know that he's not there by accident, God's not sitting there saying "Oh crap, how did GW get there?" No, for some reason he's meant to be there right now, and like it or not, as my president, I owe him my respect, as far as is morally right.

Right, right. I get it. God works in mysterious ways. Now, we all know God hates towelheads - BUT - God made towelheads, just like he made good Christians and just like he made G-Dub Prez. of the Uni. Sta. What's up with that? Well, everybody knows, you can't have good without evil, so every once in a while God has to let someone like Saddam come into power. Then, to show the Lord's rightousness, he appoints Saint George Winchester Bush President, and sends him out to purge Iraq of it's evil. Well, thank God someone rigged the Florida voting process - wait let me start over - Thank you, God, for rigging the Florida voting process so that we all may see your might and bask in it's glory.

Jesus > Democracy.

[eq_addict_08]

Interestint ing conversation. Militec, it looks as if you are in the minority thought here. But, I am happy to see that you still voice your opinion, and in a polite manner too.

Reading some of these posts I've seen references to a mode of thought that disturbs me. It is the thought that follows the patern "If it was willed by God/the president/whoever the leader is, it is the best" this logic is used alot. I do believe that the world unfolds in a certain way, but I also believe that we do have freedom of choice. Satan(if you are religious and believe in all that jazz) was created by God, does that mean we must accept the evils he creates on this earth? GWB thinks not as you can see from the war with Iraq. Yet him and his supporters use that logic. I hear the term "traitor" and "if you don't like it, move away" tossed at any dissenting viewpoints. I do NOT believe that the president in infalible, and believe we have the right (scratch that) the duty, to speak up against things we see as wrong. God does not want us accepting the evils of the world, they are put there to test our determination in fighting for right.

I have a fear of democracy. I am beginning to see democracy as "the mob". And US democracy as a powerfull, uneducated(by choice, since we have open access to pretty much any info we desire), rich, spoiled mob. Mobs rarey act in any rational manner. Difficult situation, cultivating a strong governing system, run by just people who realy are puting the needs of society ahead of all else. (IMO- it ain't ever gonna happen)

[Hades]

i have an idea...
the world is strange get over it... stop wasting your time.... it will never make sense... it will never be right... deal with it

[Stealth_raptor]

Hades, it's called a discussion.

[Mawlcisum]

Please leave "god" out of this. I don't bring my invisible friend to your house and say that what he says goes, and if you don't listen you can leave. Your invisible friend has no vote, nor does mine, so as far as I'm concerned neither of them have any say in the matter.

Let's rely on our own abilities a little more, and stop relying so much on being told what to do. I can only suggest that you try to think on your own. No invisible friends, no voices in your head, no talking animals, no bagels with Jesus on them telling you to murder your neighbor with an electric toothbrush.

Did you know that more people have died in the name of "god" than for any other single cause in the history of mankind? Glad I don't have that kind of blood on my hands.

[Hades]

it is a really gimp disscussion from people who dont know the facts on most of what they are talking about. i dont feel like going back through but seriously some of the stuff you guys say makes my head hurt...

[RexChaos]

it is a really gimp disscussion from people who dont know the facts on most of what they are talking about. i dont feel like going back through but seriously some of the stuff you guys say makes my head hurt...

Yet you posted anyway. Thanks for your opinion. And next time, please bring capitalization and proper spelling.

[eq_addict_08]

hades = gimp

If you don't like the conversation, don't reclick the link

[dazmyt]

To better understand such things intelligently, it's best to get the news from many sources. Sad to say, main stream medias follow regulations that the government sets up(forget what they're called), preventing news stations such as CNN and FOX from broadcasting news that would bring up questions about the war. That being said, it's best to watch CNN as well as the BBC and such.

Another thing to understand that this war on terror thing is something dramatized and, for that matter, made up by the government, letting the people of the U.S. swallow portion after portion of manufactured fear. Believe me, there are people that hate us to death but going the leaders of them aren't living in holes. Hell, Bin Laden has a disease that keeps him down all the time. It could be because our good pal Mr. Bush is dear friends with real enemies: The Saudis. I'm not being sarcastic when I say 'dear friends.'

I'm regurgetating a lot from Dude Where's My Country but it's good to keep an eye out for those types of things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blindly hating the 'system' or just being rebellious. I'm just saying it's good to be aware and get the whole picture whether you like it or not

[Derision]

Sad to say, main stream medias follow regulations that the government sets up(forget what they're called), preventing news stations such as CNN and FOX from broadcasting news that would bring up questions about the war.

Huh ? I thought the USA was the 'land of the free' ? You make it sound like a communist state. I live in the UK, but surely the US government can't regulate your news like that, can it ?

[dazmyt]

Not to say it fully controls the media. If you look at the stations in the U.S., you will see there's no difference between nation channels; the same thing is always reported on TV here.

Communist does not mean evil, btw. That is the name we used in place of people who were actually facists and murderers. Communism is actually an economic process that doesn't involve evil or killing. It's a common misconception. Not to say that I'm a communist, hehe.

Hey, but on the bright side: there's always Chappel's Show :)

[gtex]

Sad to say, main stream medias follow regulations that the government sets up(forget what they're called), preventing news stations such as CNN and FOX from broadcasting news that would bring up questions about the war.

Huh ? I thought the USA was the 'land of the free' ? You make it sound like a communist state. I live in the UK, but surely the US government can't regulate your news like that, can it ?

No, it can't, although there are a lot of arguments that certain broadcasting companies are too opinionated. People who are upset with the current situation try to make America look like some kind of facist nation under our current president, which isn't quite right. While you may not be satisfied with what the president is doing, it's not like we're turning into Nazi Germany at an alarming pace.

[RexChaos]

While you may not be satisfied with what the president is doing, it's not like we're turning into Nazi Germany at an alarming pace.

Check out the "Patriot Act" and tell me you don't see any similarities.

That's my last post on this topic. I started it, but I'm bowing out. :) Thanks for the fun.

[dazmyt]

Last post on subject for me:

There are man simularities between Nazi Garmany and the U.S. though I'm not saying people are dying.

For instance, we are imprisoning suspects of 'terrorism' based on little information and racial profiling. Looking at the past, Nazi officials accually went to U.S. and observed and admired our Eugenics program; a program sterilizing people with low intelligence or race.

Bush calls our nation the 'homeland.' The same thing Hitler did. Bush wants us to think that our country is the only good nation and we must go on some sort of journey to cleanse the world of non-American ways.

Honestly, this thread should stop now, though. I'm not here to talk politics. I'm here to play EqEmu :)

[Memener]

it is a really gimp disscussion from people who dont know the facts on most of what they are talking about. i dont feel like going back through but seriously some of the stuff you guys say makes my head hurt...

Is this really what a gimp means ? "People that dont know what there talking about"

[Memener]

Must be......

also may explain why i am also ignored.....:(

[mattmeck]

Sad to say, main stream medias follow regulations that the government sets up(forget what they're called), preventing news stations such as CNN and FOX from broadcasting news that would bring up questions about the war.

Actually there is nothing further from the truth, I have many friends over there right now, (I live on Fort Hood, which is where 4ID and First Cav are from) including my wife who has been there for 3 months now. Everyone I get e-mails from or get to chat with is so surprised at how much info is being given out via the news. So this whole statement is untrue.

Here is a copy of an e-mail that is being passed around the army

Liberals claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war. They complain about his prosecution of it. One liberal recently claimed Bush was the worst president in U.S. history. Let's clear up one point: We didn't start the war on terror. Try to remember, it was started by terrorists BEFORE 9/11. Let's look at the "worst" president and mismanagement claims.

FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.

John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. We lost 600 soldiers, an average of 30 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not allowing another terrorist attack at home. Worst president in history? Come on!

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Teddy Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

Everyone seems to be so good at finding statistics but missed most of these, there true look them up.


First post for me in a long time, this is just too close to home, seeing people wine and complain about this wile my neighbor 3 doors down lost her husband, her 3 kids lost there father, and as she put it so elegantly " He is a hero, he is protecting people from the devils of the world, its the people that cant see this and condemn him that hurts me so bad"


If you have never been over there, if you haven

[Shadow-Wolf]

I'm sure they joined the Alliance for political reasons not because it was necessary. And don't forget that the history books you are reading were written by Americans.

late reply but it wasn't really a book, it was a few pages off the internet compiled together, and i believe that 2 of that pages were written by a russian history major, only 1 page was written by an american in the compilation and it was how the country was split into 4 sections...

[ltlruss]

Thanks for that post mattmeck..... Good to see you around again :D

[Nyamaar]

I didn't bother reading the WHOLE thing...

My feelings on voting - the core of the issue from the first post (and thank you to Rex for that post) is that there should be NO limitations on voters. I don't care if you're a felon, ex-con, etc etc etc. If you are a citizen (a national or someone who has become a citizen otherwise) you have a right to vote - no, you have the privilege and honor of voting.

I don't agree with what happened. Heck, of all those votes, they might have all been for Ted Nugent - we just don't know who those people would have voted for. But I do feel they all deserved their right to vote.

Please do all get out there and vote this november - I don't care who you vote for, that is your choice. As long as you are at the polls, I'm glad to see you there.

Peace!

[smuggler]

I got about half way through these posts when I had to stop to state something.

I don't necessarily like Geroge W., and I'm more of a negotiator than a politician, but I will say this.

Wether or not you like what G.W. Bush has done with his presidency, he DID win the election. I'm military so I can really vouch for the importance of the overseas ballots that were not allowed to go towards the vote.

Also, when you talk about this hand recounting stuff... Recounting over and over. Allow me to highlight something for you.

Whenever a hanging 'chad' found, it was tallied as a vote for Gore if there was reason to believe it was the voter's intention to vote for Gore (for some reason, Bush ppl didn't have too much trouble dealing with the ballots. hand dexterity or something like that).

With this said, the vote in Florida is IMMEDIATELY ruined.

Because, my friends, there is no way to prove wether or not the machine system counted it as a vote for Gore in the first place or not.

For all we know, each of those hanging chad ballots could have been tallied twice, once by the computers and then again by the hand counters.

But really, that crap is irrelevant because of all those (something like 10k if i recall correctly, don't quote me on it though) Florida overseas ballots that weren't counted. Something like 85% of those were for Bush, enough to give him a decisive victory in Florida.

Luckily, by some miracle, we ended up with the right president (and by that I mean the one who actually won, not the "better" president)

As far as 'total population', well who wins is not based on percentages. It's based on electorate ballots. Gore could have had a 100% victory,everyone in the US votes for him, if all the electors vote for Bush, Bush wins.

Just so we're clear, it's nothing personal.