Hacker [Archive] - EQEmulator Forums

aneriel

08-27-2007, 03:06 AM

Whats so funny about getting all you hard work trashed ?
and keeping all your work private is helpfull how ?
hmmm whatever.
They hit my server at least 3 times a night nowdays.
I long ago learned to backup everything at least once a day nowdays.
anyways if you find a fix for the DOS hacks let me know.
seems there tons of servers...IF NOT ALL OF THEM.. with this explot in them.
I would suggest tinyfirewall pro.... it lets you ban specific ip address's.
and basicly anything from .ru should be blocked out as they are nothing but spammers nowdays.

My sentiments exactly. I didn't go through all the effort, not only setting everything up, but the hours scouring these forums just to have someone, with nothing better to, try and bring my server down/corrupt my DB/do whatever it is they do.

At any rate, I've completely closed my system down as best I could. Turned on windows firewall, closed all ports, installed Symantec AV corp edition and spybot. We'll see what happens I suppose. Only thing that worries me is they've been in before which generally means I should be starting with a clean install.

devn00b

08-27-2007, 03:33 AM

Firewalls wont stop this exploit, it comes over the same port as the server runs on, if your server is open to the public, your vulnerable.

Its not funny that you got hacked, i am sorry for that, What is funny however that i warned of this happening, and what would happen when someone with some talent checked shiz out, and started using this exploit.

When it comes to hard work there are very few people 'round here left that have put in as much work as I have. I was hours from giving the fixes to this when image and myself (senior developers mind you) where removed from the team. All the fixes are long gone now, nor do I have the desire to re-do them so some other security expert is going to have to do them. Oh wait, there aren't any real devs left....

Bravo Dev Team Bravo.

oldlurker

08-27-2007, 08:10 AM

When it comes to hard work there are very few people 'round here left that have put in as much work as I have. I was hours from giving the fixes to this when image and myself (senior developers mind you) where removed from the team. All the fixes are long gone now, nor do I have the desire to re-do them so some other security expert is going to have to do them. Oh wait, there aren't any real devs left....

So you are just posting to feed your ego?
From what I remember you and image(and I still think that you are one and the same people) got rightfully bootet from this project because of exactly this type of sh*t.

devn00b

08-27-2007, 10:53 AM

This has nothing to do with me. This has everything to do with the fact that there has been a KNOWN exploit that gives a remote user access to the server pc, and nothing has been done about it at all.

This would be akin to say gaim, or even linux itself (both open source software) leaving exploits in their code for however long its been. Wouldn't you be upset? Wouldn't you be a little upset that a fix was there, but the ruling king decided hey we dont need the fix we'll boot the dev that has it, and let the exploit stay? Now i sit here seeing that my fears have come true...Forgive me for being a little upset...

As for my leaving the project, Doodman and image had a dispute, they kicked image, THEN myself. I had nothing to do with the original dispute.

here we go my log from my chat with doodman

Session Start (cronikusgw:HLTHMSF): Mon Aug 23 19:43:54 2004
cronikusgw: -NickServ- Nickname devn00b is suspended and may not be used or identified for.
cronikusgw: see thats bullshit
cronikusgw: wtf did i ever do besides devote 4 years to the emulator
HLTHMSF: Hmm.. He claimed you were not banned.. Let me see.
cronikusgw: wtf ever.
cronikusgw: thats bullshit
HLTHMSF: Jesus.. let me check..
cronikusgw: there is no reason for me to EVER be suspended
cronikusgw: i did NOTHING
HLTHMSF: Fixed..
HLTHMSF: C'mon.. Someone suspended you . Dunno why.. But it's undone.
cronikusgw: it should never have been done
cronikusgw: nor my server delinked
cronikusgw: nor my admin removed again from the forums
cronikusgw: thats bullshit
HLTHMSF: Give me a chance..
cronikusgw: sure
HLTHMSF: I think people were concerned that with removing image, that he would go to you to unleash havoc on the rest of us. Which was obviously unfounded. But I think that is why that was done.. It was handled poorly, I agree.

So yeah i was removed because of "this shit". Please before you pretend to know something get it straight. As for us being the same people, think what you will, anyone realy in the know knows we arent the same people, hell we used to get on rogeans vent server and talk, so please...

//edit: keeping all my work private? haha 90% of my work is in the fucking emu base code, i kept my db private. And didnt release my exploit fix because i wasnt a developer here anymore, and i was banned from irc and the forums, because of what i posted above.

Angelox

08-27-2007, 11:37 AM

I really don't understand what the point is here, or if there is a "point", how big it should be?
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has ever done any small piece of code, or is doing any code work now, is a Dev, reguardless if they are part of any special "EgEmu Dev" group or not.
lately, I've become aggravated with the whole scene, due to lack of interest by the people who control what goes into the "official" code. But this has always been so, ever since I started in the EqEmu scene. Anyways, this last time around, I got so frustrated, I was not planning to post anymore of my stuff.
But really, this is no way to be - very few of us do any "public" work any more, and this is what keeps this "open source" project alive. I've always been against people who keep stuff to themselves and not publish what they do to these forums or to the source. when I started here, *no one* was doing anything: no updates to any database or nothing to the source. This didn't mean there was no one doing any work, just meant who ever was doing work, kept it to themselves (like what happens now).
What FNW or Doodman does or doesn't do, shouldn't really matter or hinder what YOU are doing - you have the source and everything else you need. They only hide the log in server code, but you could use the mini-login server, just the same, for public logins.
So far, all the ones who rant and criticize, have not shown me where I sould trust them with the "official" source code. Especially the guy who tried to hack into what little we have left and ruin it (you know who you are).
What a lot of us do not understand is, EqEmu *already* belongs to all of us, and we can do as we please with it.
So what fuck it up, hack it , ruin it so everyone gets screwed?
Anyways, I'm working on something I consider to be really big, it's a lot of work, so will take a while, but when I get done, I will post it for all of us to either share or keep it for youself and don't share at all.

gernblan

08-27-2007, 12:11 PM

gernblan

08-27-2007, 12:14 PM

lately, I've become aggravated with the whole scene, due to lack of interest by the people who control what goes into the "official" code. But this has always been so, ever since I started in the EqEmu scene. Anyways, this last time around, I got so frustrated, I was not planning to post anymore of my stuff.

I cannot agree with you more.

If they are going to control freak a GPL PROJECT like this, then they at least better be attentive to it.

If something is submitted, and it works, then it needs to get into the tree, NOW.

If they sit on it, then frankly, eqemu needs a fork. It's GPL, thus fair game for this.

The whole point of the GPL is to be able to share code changes freely and easily. If a certain set of people are making it frustrating and difficult to do so, then someone else who will get these fixes in becomes necessary.

While we're on the subject, I'd like to know who thought it was appropriate to originally license the LS code as GPL, then make it unavailable to anyone. Sorry, but you can't do that. And this isn't a copyright issue. You released it under a free license. You don't get to change your mind after the fact.

sfisque

08-27-2007, 02:53 PM

this really begs the question though. if there is something exploitable, why is the patch not made available, regardless if it was rejected by any inner circle. by that argument, organizations like CERT shouldnt bother posting issues, because vendors like MS and others sometimes deny them or "scoff" at the danger rating.

== sfisque

devn00b

08-27-2007, 04:21 PM

Because i was banned from the website, and the irc. After that ive gone through so many hard drives and shit the code just got lost. Again fault of the "devs" not mine

EliseusKayne

08-27-2007, 06:36 PM

soo idk if dev is trying to help or prove something stupid or is butt hurt he was kicked? idk

moydock

08-27-2007, 06:59 PM

soo idk if dev is trying to help or prove something stupid or is butt hurt he was kicked? idk

i'd say all of the above.

Sakrateri

08-27-2007, 07:15 PM

Question here DevNoob....If you were asked to rejoin the team.....would you?? I never had a prob with you or Image and personally I think a couple of great minds and been unfairly dropped and replaced with some people with larger heads albeit smaller minds . It would seem to me if you still did not have an interest to do the right thing for the community here then you would just be sitting back quiet listening to all of this. It seems you would like to help out but pride and a couple of people are standing in your way......

and that concludes our psychology session for today........

mattmeck

08-27-2007, 09:13 PM

See Dev and Image did a LOT of work for eqemu, they were the core for a long time. However, the attitudes and elitist attitudes aren't missed at all. There was so much drama surrounding the whole Dev team during that time, that EQemu was almost spli and ripped apart.

I would love to see some of the old dev's to come back and revive this dying project, but if the attitudes and drama come back too, most of the people left here who still do contribute would leave then we would be right back where we are now.

devn00b

08-28-2007, 03:08 AM

sdabbs65

08-28-2007, 04:55 AM

http://spacetrader.no-ip.info/ldrama lama2.jpg

Richardo

08-28-2007, 05:08 AM

Lol... Hey guys, I got married..!

http://www.xonos.net/DSC00190.JPG

oldlurker

08-28-2007, 05:12 AM

I wonder how this exploit works. If it is just an attack against the server ports it would help if the login Server and the eqemu server did some sort of handshake, so any IP who did not connect to the loginserver first might still be able to open these ports but the emu server will not communicate and close it instantly.
Also it would be nice to know if the attacker is stupid enough to operate from his own account. Wouldnt it be funny if this jerk is also browsing these forums with the same IP, maybe even logged in. That is what logfiles are for.

Some facts about devnoob:

Way back devnoob did his utmost to kill Lucid Vision. He messed with the login server and banned or hijacked accounts until they decided to run their own login server.Then tried to hack their forums and finally forced an wipe with some hidden backdoor in the eqemu code.

It is not a matter of brilliance. I take an merely good lead programmer over an brilliant egomaniac anytime.

Anyway. I would suggest not to feed the Troll any further. if no one responds to his BS he will get bored.

aneriel

08-28-2007, 05:14 AM

I need to say something:

You're willing to spend gobs of time fighting all sorts of problems running the emu server on an OS that the entire world knows has more holes than swiss cheese, yet you won't just sit down and put up a linux box and have a secure server once and for all?

I submit that you're spending (read: wasting) a lot more time struggling with windows security (especially since it doesn't exist--if Microsoft can't even lock down their own OS, what makes you think you can?) whereas you could just invest the time to learn how to do it right on Linux and be done with it.

Because then i'm just opening up more problems for myself. I'm not familiar with Linux, so if something doesn't work I won't know if it's because i didn't set something up right, or because it's part of eqemu, etc etc. I would be *wasting* more time as it is. Plus I really have no time to learn something new, I have too many "Gotta Learn this system" at work going on as it is.

Plus if this is an issue with ports eqemu uses, then it's going to affect linux as well. I've got my system locked down good, no one is going to be able to get into that doesn't use the 700* ports.

My first problem was that I didn't do this before putting the server online. I was too excited about having a server running that I had no anti-virus installed, I had ports open on my firewall that shouldn't have been (VNC for one since I don't have a monitor hooked up ..btw that is disabled so don't try), etc etc. My main worries were that I overlooked something, but now I know it's just part of eqemu and for some classic eq i can live with that.

image

08-28-2007, 05:29 AM

I need to butt in here because oldlurker seems to love creating rumors left and right, maybe if his registration date wasn't July of 2007 I would be more impressed. I am not devn00b first off, but he is a good friend of mine, we live in different states. Secondly devn00b although had the ability to damage Lucid Visions servers did not do so, it was done on part by various eqemu members (To take down the server), although there were a few eqemu developers that created cheats (such as exploiting the point system for items).

I appreciate mattmeck's support as we did put a lot of effort into eqemu and I think as you can all understand when you put a lot of effort into something you have a lot of emotional feelings towards it. However what has happened is in the past, the big argument that occured I think is resolved for the most part atleast in my eyes.

But seriously if you didn't understand the situation stop just making up stuff, thats just ridiculous.

oldlurker

08-28-2007, 05:30 AM

Plus if this is an issue with ports eqemu uses, then it's going to affect linux as well. I've got my system locked down good, no one is going to be able to get into that doesn't use the 700* ports.

Tell me how hard it is to run an Windows EQEmu server in a bare-bones jail enviroment. Say all files exept the mysql data files and logfiles are read only. And I mean "read only" as in 'not even root can change em'

Trust me, you really want to invest the time and get a linux server running. Yes, the learning curve is a bit steep but once you get the hang of it you wont look back.

Angelox

08-28-2007, 06:05 AM

Now I *know* you hate me! (didn't invite me to your wedding!).

Lol... Hey guys, I got married..!

gernblan

08-28-2007, 06:06 AM

There is absolutely NO reason in my mind that ANY good code from ANY source should not have the same chance to get committed as any other.

Personalities mean nothing. Infighting means nothing. This is about the code.

The facts are this, whoever is policing the tree and is putting personalities over the project is flat out WRONG.

If this sort of practice was the norm, we wouldn't even HAVE a linux kernel. Don't believe me? Go read the LKML.

Whoever is cockblocking code from sources they don't "like personally", grow up. Get over it.

Real people are out here running servers that cost real money. We have a right to the best emulator possible. If fixes, code, features and bugfixes are not hitting the tree due to politics, then I call bullshit.

The players also deserve better.

You may not like everyone that has ever worked on this project (or wants to now), but if they write good stable code that improves this project in ANY way, you have a DUTY to accept it, not sit on it. If you do, you're doing more damage to the project than they EVER could.

Think about it.

Image and devnoob (and whoever else) may all BE jerks for all I know. But I say, who cares--it does NOT MATTER.

If they write good code, ACCEPT IT. Otherwise, the maintainers are the ones doing the real damage... and a fork becomes necessary.

Angelox

08-28-2007, 09:00 AM

I don't think anyone is blocking anything, just simply, lack of interest is all.
Even if you were to fork, I would really think hard about who to give control to all this, because some people in this scene are acting very childish, to a point where they are willing to sabotage what we already have.

There is absolutely NO reason in my mind that ANY good code from ANY source should not have the same chance to get committed as any other.

Personalities mean nothing. Infighting means nothing. This is about the code.

The facts are this, whoever is policing the tree and is putting personalities over the project is flat out WRONG.

If this sort of practice was the norm, we wouldn't even HAVE a linux kernel. Don't believe me? Go read the LKML.

Whoever is cockblocking code from sources they don't "like personally", grow up. Get over it.

Real people are out here running servers that cost real money. We have a right to the best emulator possible. If fixes, code, features and bugfixes are not hitting the tree due to politics, then I call bullshit.

The players also deserve better.

You may not like everyone that has ever worked on this project (or wants to now), but if they write good stable code that improves this project in ANY way, you have a DUTY to accept it, not sit on it. If you do, you're doing more damage to the project than they EVER could.

Think about it.

Image and devnoob (and whoever else) may all BE jerks for all I know. But I say, who cares--it does NOT MATTER.

If they write good code, ACCEPT IT. Otherwise, the maintainers are the ones doing the real damage... and a fork becomes necessary.

mattmeck

08-28-2007, 09:35 AM

Dev, Image, I know you remember the EQEmu where if someone annoyed certain developers they have pics of the tub woman crapping in her own mouth posted, or added as there avatar. The constant bans from IRC, the instant bans from the forums for asking almost any question.

The work you two did in your time made EQEmu what it is, and guild wars is sorely missed, however all the stuff that went on (whether you did it or allowed it to happen) made EQEmu horrible.

There has to be some way that developers can function and code without all that crap being done. We went from a lot of work being done but a poor community, to a great community and no work being done!!

WTB the mythical middle ground!!

image

08-28-2007, 10:11 AM

I think a big problem right now is the interaction between the developers and users has been severed for the most part in EQEMu. All people who have been giving code additions have not been getting the attention they deserve (KLS for example, think thats the name). Either way its up to the current developers to take responsibility for the project. Most of the developers that have moved on are on new projects or working and don't have the time.

And yeah the early EQEMu years were pretty destructive, but the passion for developing EQEMu was much stronger at that period of time as well. So I think it somewhat balanced itself out and it began calming down for the most part. All I can say is it would be good to learn from those mistakes :)

WildcardX

08-28-2007, 10:19 AM

There has to be some way that developers can function and code without all that crap being done. We went from a lot of work being done but a poor community, to a great community and no work being done!!

WTB the mythical middle ground!!

I have to take exception here on the statements that EQEmu is a dying project or that no work is being done anymore. I know for a fact the hard work cavedude and I put into the PEQ work database. Him and I are adding or editing the database on a daily basis. Also, there are a number of people who are contributing other changes to the PEQ database which we manage and then there are also a number of people who make contributions to the quests on a daily basis. As for the coding, I know KLS and FNW are very active as am I. Its true that during the summer, things slowed down a lot, but I think thats normal and happens every summer. I know for me, the summer means a lot of home improvement projects and vacation.

Anyways, it irked me reading that nothing is being done to further the project, because it is simply not true. And this is coming from one of the "developers"... me.

Angelox

08-28-2007, 11:42 AM

True, but you are just now posting the PEQ quest pack which hasn't had an up date since last year (probably was posted because you saw this storm brewing).
Also, your PEQ Database is posted, but very complicated for most people to access. They have to go to the CVS and learn how to fish for the files.
In Resume, I think you are all most interested in the PEQ Server for gameplay (and fame), when your first passion and priority should be to serve the public and provide them with fast, easy updates to what you are doing (the source as well as the database).
Maybe you "meant" to do it or "didn't have time" - but if PEQ is to belong to the public, then you first priority is to give it to everyone, not sit on it and work it into the server.
If there is an update, it should go public right away and now dwell around on some ones "private" server. If there is a problem with the update, then we all know this is alpha/beta, so we can report it and take it out.
I also think you are being unjust by not permiting other servers in the "Preferred Server" listings. Currently, I see no good reason why anyone should be under the "preferred" server listing void to promote their server.

I have to take exception here on the statements that EQEmu is a dying project or that no work is being done anymore. I know for a fact the hard work cavedude and I put into the PEQ work database. Him and I are adding or editing the database on a daily basis. Also, there are a number of people who are contributing other changes to the PEQ database which we manage and then there are also a number of people who make contributions to the quests on a daily basis. As for the coding, I know KLS and FNW are very active as am I. Its true that during the summer, things slowed down a lot, but I think thats normal and happens every summer. I know for me, the summer means a lot of home improvement projects and vacation.

Anyways, it irked me reading that nothing is being done to further the project, because it is simply not true. And this is coming from one of the "developers"... me.

cavedude

08-28-2007, 12:35 PM

*Ahem*

http://eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23534

cavedude

08-28-2007, 12:49 PM

I take offense to the fact that you seem to think our database is "private." The fact of the matter is CVS is very easy to use, and if people can't figure out, then that is their problem. I update it frequently, so our software is anything but private. I am not one to push out half assed releases just for the sake of releasing something. When I push something out, I want it to be of the highest quality. The Ykesha release isn't ready, but I do agree it has been too long since the last true release so it needed to get out. Maybe once the epics are all complete, and we get the few zones overhauled we wanted to, I'll do push a RC1.

I also take offense to the fact that you feel the server is the main part of the project and is about "fame." I agree we are concerned about gameplay... those corrections or bug fixes in the code go right to the EQEmu CVS. Looking down the EQEmu changelog I can list at least 20 items that either I requested or reported because of Grand Creation. But, the main purpose of the server is the database and quests, both of which I spend hours a day working on. The players are aware of the fact that the server itself is the least of my priorities, and as long as I do care about their concerns (which I am) they are happy and continue to feed me with database bug rerports and suggestions.

WildcardX

08-28-2007, 03:36 PM

In Resume, I think you are all most interested in the PEQ Server for gameplay (and fame), when your first passion and priority should be to serve the public and provide them with fast, easy updates to what you are doing (the source as well as the database).

I'm not sure what to say about this, other than it is just bullshit. And are you seriously getting on our case over how we post the PEQ database? Seriously? The PEQ database is easily available to anyone via download from CVS. If you think it ought to be compressed and zipped up in a nice neat archive file, then by all means break out the wrapping paper and tie a pretty pink bow on it and post it for download yourself here, if thats what you'd prefer. I'd also like to point out that we also make ALL the quest files available via CVS as well. Again, anyone at anytime can log into CVS and download them.

I apologize if this sounds like I'm mad. I have to admit I find what I have read here offensive to all the great work we have done at PEQ over the last year and to all the great work that is being done to server development itself.

TheLieka

08-28-2007, 04:36 PM

Wow, this thread was flirting with turning into something productive before everyone decided to Circle the Wagons.

Change scares some people, it's an unfortunate fact of life. I've been trolling the forums and playing on servers for few years (never hardcore, mind you), and I orginally heard about EQEmu from a friend that wanted me to try this awesome new thing called GuildWars (before the non-namesake ripoff PC game came out).

I've seen a lot of things change, and bannings sway based on which cults of personality were in control of which piece at the time. Granted, I didn't post for years after seeing some of the things that happened to people that posted. I've had a ton of stupid questions, but slowly but surely, I've found the answers to them, until I was finally ready to take a stab at setting up my own server.

Cavedude and Wildcard, I know it's instinct to get defensive, and I do understand that, but I think that you guys got brought into this as collateral damage. The central point to this whole thread is, something needs to happen to stimulate the community. Let's look away from the devs for a minute, and stop pointing fingers at whose fault it is.

The bottom line is, people are starting to get bored. Yes, your community, the group of people that, I've seen so many pretend, don't fucking matter. I ask you this: If the community (read as: the players) are not important, because they haven't submitted code (yet), then who are you building this code for? I could fill the fucking grand canyon with the posts I've seen bashing the players. Do the devs get together and have a tickle fight on a different person's server every saturday? No. It's not anyone's midterm project, no one has to do this. The code and databases exists to put up a server for PLAYERS to log into. The community DOES matter, and the fact that I've seen reinforced over and over is that as soon as someone gets into a control position, they seem to forget why they can even call themselves a (insert title here). There are a lot of political and social parallels to this going on right now, but I'll keep that to myself, for risk of the thread getting further derailed.

Something needs to happen, someone needs to, as image said, learn from the mistakes, and swallow a little gulp of pride. If you are in control (of the database, of the source, of the forums, of a server, of any aspect of this community), and you feel yourself getting disinterested, don't have time, or just don't give a shit, then do yourself and everyone else a favor and hand over the reigns to someone with some enthusiasm for it. Burnout is completely normal, and no one will view you as a quitter or a deserter for standing down, BUT do not half-way stand down (holding onto or holding back certain pieces of code, etc), don't try to make the community realize how fucking important you are, you'll only tarnish your own name, and people will resent you for your last days, rather than glorify your time in service to the community. This community (EQEmu and PEQ are not separate communities) needs to get excited about something, and it's been a while since anyone has had anything major to get excited about. When the community gets excited, you'll see more code slingers, database devs, security spooks, project managers, GMs, and players coming out of the woodwork to participate than you'll know what to do with (and all of the positions listed in this statement are equally important to this community, if you disagree, then reread the first two sentences of this paragraph quietly to yourself while you blush).

If you are jaded and unhappy with your part in the community, you're projecting that on everyone you come in contact with.

The good news is: Enthusiasm is extremely contagious, and it will only take is a few excited people to re-energize this entire project (if you say that it doesn't need to be revitalized, then you're in complete and total denial: likely due to a fear of healthy internal competition. Let's not forget that it's competition that put a man on the moon).

[/motivational speach off]

mattmeck

08-28-2007, 05:04 PM

Ok some key points.

-PEQ is trucking along, work is being done
-nice work being done to allow bots ! omg i think thats so cool
-Openzone ! its te sweet!
-open client, wow Wind, and anyone helping i am in awe.
-countless others, with code fixes, quests and anything else i cant think of off the top of my head all great things.

Not one was mentioned in my post, my concerns are based on those with a developer tag, those who can actually modify the code.

Doodman has contributed so much to the community, not one person can claim otherwise.

FNW, has rewrote, fixed, coded, quested, lord knows how much.

I hear there is more developers know but /shrug where are they? who are they? and thats my point, there is no communication.

so far i have tried to get a hold of the dev team via the following
over 21 unanswered e-mails
over 30 unanswered PM's via forums
countless hours on IRC trying to get answers

And i am sopose to be helping run the forums!

The "official" development team has cut themselves off from anyone who cant live on IRC, if you can be there 24/7 then you can catch them, otherwise your left in the dark (including me)

I have much love for the people who contributed and made EQEmu what it is, but the current devs need to look at "promoting" people who are more actively involved.

I never claimed eqemu was dying, I just claim we need more involved developers.

Sakrateri

08-28-2007, 05:10 PM

Matt please lock this down before more people are indicted on false pretenses and we lose some more good minds in this community .....and by the way Angel......why the fuck would you have to drag some innocent names into a conversation like this and talk about them in a defamatory way??

True, but you are just now posting the PEQ quest pack which hasn't had an up date since last year (probably was posted because you saw this storm brewing).
Also, your PEQ Database is posted, but very complicated for most people to access. They have to go to the CVS and learn how to fish for the files.
In Resume, I think you are all most interested in the PEQ Server for gameplay (and fame), when your first passion and priority should be to serve the public and provide them with fast, easy updates to what you are doing (the source as well as the database).
Maybe you "meant" to do it or "didn't have time" - but if PEQ is to belong to the public, then you first priority is to give it to everyone, not sit on it and work it into the server.
If there is an update, it should go public right away and now dwell around on some ones "private" server. If there is a problem with the update, then we all know this is alpha/beta, so we can report it and take it out.
I also think you are being unjust by not permiting other servers in the "Preferred Server" listings. Currently, I see no good reason why anyone should be under the "preferred" server listing void to promote their server.

While your at it Matt, I vote for a 10 day ban on Angel for out of jealousy bringing other people into this conversation and being such a little dick.

P.S Angel,learn cvs you power mad little twit

TheLieka

08-28-2007, 05:20 PM

Matt please lock this down before more people are indicted on false pretenses and we lose some more good minds in this community .....and by the way Angel......why the fuck would you have to drag some innocent names into a conversation like this and talk about them in a defamatory way??

While your at it Matt, I vote for a 10 day ban on Angel for out of jealousy bringing other people into this conversation and being such a little dick.

P.S Angel,learn cvs you power mad little twit

I completely disagree with this statement. Angel may be wrong, but the ability to voice opinions and concerns for the project should not be met with punitive actions. If you twart the communities attempts to speak freely, you're only going to continue and reinforce the silent mass exodus that has already started. What's the purpose? ...To pet a couple of egos? Just because someone speaks out (and you disagree with them (note, I have NO opinion on this, as I don't know or care anything about it, read my last post)) doesn't mean that they should be banned.

Rather than trying to make a Stalinistic example out of someone, how about letting people speak to the points, and let's see where it leads us.

WildcardX

08-28-2007, 05:32 PM

FYI. The current dev team is probably not as cohesive as other dev teams in the past, but they include:

FNW
Doodman
KLS
WildcardX
Rogean

I'm sure there are a couple others that also should be included as "devs" and who also have access to the server code respository, so this is by no means an all inclusive list. Also, some of us are more active than others at different points in the year. Speaking for myself, I know I do most of my work during the fall and winter, but then I go sit in my pool for the summer and drool over my wife's bikini.

I agree there ought to be better communication and collaboration.

TheLieka

08-28-2007, 05:47 PM

The current dev team is probably not as cohesive as other dev teams in the past, but they include:

FNW
Doodman
KLS
WildcardX
Rogean

From what I know of the devs that I've worked with in my professional career, they probably would much rather sit in their offices and code crunch than actually talk to people, especially to whole community (our Sr. Dev refers to anyone outside of IT as "mouth breathers", hehe). For many highly intelligent / skilled people, they need someone else to be their own public voice. It saves them time, effort, face, and keeps them from getting pissed off about what they're doing (at least publically).

We have always had a business analyst / project manager type person that keeps track of what everyone is working on and keeps everyone in the loop about the status of things, this way the devs can focus on being devs rather than worrying about that whole "communication" thing. ;)

Maybe this project shouldn't be too far beyond the structure of a typical office environment in that aspect? Is there someone technical and familiar enough with the project that the devs wouldn't mind keeping in the loop, that could act as a liason to the community? Perhaps this person could bridge EQEMU and PEQ for this role as well?

Just a thought.

Dax

CrabClaw

08-28-2007, 07:03 PM

No need to ban anyone, golly. Having been a lurker for the past many years before even registering I have seen the whole Hamlet-esque soap opera play out from waaay back. I give props to Matt for cleaning out all the 'dudes' who made the forums very unwelcome back in the 'good ol' days' when everyone wore spiky haircuts and being dowsed in beer was the preferred method of helping people.

I try to contribute what content I can, even help a clueless person once and a while with a PM or post, without pretense of credit or praise, merely for the good of those who want to play. That's all you can hope for a free project, ego's be damned. It's just me returning the karma for all the fun I am having, shouldn't that me the modus operandi of everyone here? I just worry about pulling out the moldy old laundry again is ix-naying our high right now.

But sure, if someone wants to package up the PEQ or whatever into a zip file and host it so people have easy access, who cares? For the record, I do SVN and compile my own projects now, but, waaay back when I was a youngling I got my start with Cavedudes excellent 3.x installer. Once I learned SQL, Perl, and compiling, I do it all myself now. Heck what I have learned here is moving me onto my own SQL/Python/Crystalspace/Blender based D2 clone project. So I thank the project for that.

(--If there is a security fix you can help people with then at least put the right people on the right course to fix it.)

gernblan

08-28-2007, 09:28 PM

I know plenty of people, and I'll even name some: blah, striat, that are capable coders, who I have spoken to, that HAVE written patches (I'm even running some on my server and they work) that claim that all of their attempts just to get the code into the tree has been fruitless.

The problem here is that nobody seems to accept the patches when they are posted.

Someone, whoever the actual maintainer is, should be quick to accept updates, and someone should be available to talk to these potential devs and find out just HOW good they are and HOW willing they are to continue working on the project... and they should be encouraged.

Again, I know good people who have told me repeatedly just how frustrated they are that they don't have a voice. I can only wonder just how much the project has suffered because of this.

That being said, I applaud those that do work on the emu, and I applaud those that do have SVN write access. However, I would like to know what it actually takes for someone not already in the loop to start to contrinute. What is being doen to expand the contributer base here? Anything?

What I'd like to see are submissions being taken seriously. I'd like to see them promptly tested, and I'd like to see them added to the tree.

gernblan

08-28-2007, 09:36 PM

And the flaming and derailing attempts I've seen in this thread so far?

Pathetic.

Seriously, is this REALLY about your ego? Do you actually CARE about this project and the people who participate in it... all the way down to those who are trying to enjoy it, the players? What's with the butt-hurt commentary?

Look, this is really simple: if there is a DDOS bug that is KNOWN, then somebody that knows how to and is willing, please fix it.

And when that code is posted, NO MATTER WHO IT IS FROM, put it in the damn tree.

gernblan

08-28-2007, 09:39 PM

ROFL just realized I should get some sleep.. said BLAH instead of bleh two posts up.

My bad, and bleh, sorry.

Angelox

08-28-2007, 10:39 PM

Again, this is where we are mistaken; Everyone who ever made/is making a piece of code for EqEmu, should be considered a "dev", not just the few people that have control over the repository.
In any case, the ones that truly hold the key to this EqEmu project and its future, *still* have not posted a word about anything for anything, anywhere, in any form. Not just now, but for a while. This is not right: plenty of us here are truly interested and dedicated enough to a point where we give away our time and money to see this work (in good faith), and are willing to do more. If I got a few people pissed, well I'm sorry (didn't mean to), but I'm not on anyones side but EqEmus, and so should we all!
Maybe I just have a wrong opinion of what "open source" really is?

cavedude

08-29-2007, 12:29 AM

I'm glad to see this thread has triggered a civil pissing match. It is a good thing, I think.

Angelox, I am a bit hurt about some of the things you said. EQEmu is my first priority, with database/quest development being next. I've often been prone to taking the less wise path in an effort to keep both projects moving, whether I look bad in the process or not. But, I know you and know you don't hold any malice towards anybody who doesn't deserve it so I am going to chalk this up as a miscommunication and call it done with.

Back on to topic about the devels...

I have worked with a few of them pretty closely and I do want to say some of the flames toward them is a bit unfair.

KLS - Grab the full changelog and do a search for KLS. That about sums it up. Other than answering development posts KLS keeps themself pretty quiet on forums and such. I have no problem with that at all, and don't see why others do. The work gets done and it's quality.

Wildcard - Again, look through the changelog. Add that to the fact that he is a key member of PEQ. In addition to coding, he does database work, event scripting, helps me with misc chores that we find ourselves needing, and handles some of the GM work that I don't particularly care for. He has a full plate that's for sure.

FNW - In the modern day of EQEmu he kept this project going, Atlas style. I still remember back in the day his MASSIVE changes to the changelog. Getting new code from him almost felt like Christmas. In the past 2 months, he corrected a few severe memory leaks that I know were brutal on Grand Creation and I am certain effected other servers as well. I think he and Doodman do more behind the scenes than anybody knows, or gives them credit for. I found with PEQ that running a project isn't just about getting the actual development work done, there are tons of other things on your plate that require attending to, or else there won't be a project left to develop for. I think it should also be noted that when EQEmu was losing its hosting, FNW told me if he had to, he would host the site and login on his PERSONAL box and bandwidth.

Doodman - I haven't spoken with him much, but I have to admit I haven't ever tried, either. I know like FNW, he does a ton behind the scenes much, much more than he is given credit for. On a personal note, there was a time recently when Wild and I were bomboarding with him questions mostly dealing with packet collection and collecting spawn opcodes so we can try to get eqextractor working with eqbuilder again, and he was more than friendly and helpful to provide us the information we needed.

Rogean - I know less about him than any other, I admit but his recent HoTT implementation as well as fix for a certain form of exploit was well received by me. His work seems to be quality, so that's all the counts for me.

Now, I don't know the specifics of how it works so I'm now expert, but I do know that all code that is put into CVS is quality controlled to prevent bogus and/or incompatible code from getting into the repo. I know there have been a few times developers had to rewrite certain pieces of code because while they worked and worked well, they didn't meet the quality EQEmu has tried to maintain in recently time. I think that may be one of the reasons why code from the forums doesn't make it into the CVS often. Here is the next issue I have seen... lack of free time. Developers don't have the time to find a piece of code on the forums, analyze it, then either approve it, or hand it back saying this, that, and this need to be changed because of that guy over there. Finally, submit the approved code to SVN which winds it's way to the CVS, and eventually to the nightly builds.

What I feel EQEmu needs to correct this situation is a sort of Forum Developer. Somebody who will act as a lisaon between the coders on the forums, and the developers with CVS access. They would need to be a good developer, and have a very solid grasp on the EQEmu code. They could find the code on the forums, diff it if it isn't already, find immediate mistakes with it and either correct it themselves, or give it back to the author. Then, pass the mostly polished code up to whoever. If they deny it, the liason would then send the code back to the author and either let them know what's wrong, or have them contact the CVS developer directly. Of course I have no power to make this a reality, it's just an idea really. I think instead of fighting back and forth, that's what we need to do come up with ideas and put them into motion.

Sakrateri

08-29-2007, 02:22 AM

So.......Anyone seen the Wild Hogs movie?? .........Funny shit :grin:

sfisque

08-29-2007, 03:25 AM

back to the primary point.

what is the poop on this exploit and the possible patch that may or may not exist.

== sfisque

TheLieka

08-29-2007, 04:33 AM

What I feel EQEmu needs to correct this situation is a sort of Forum Developer. Somebody who will act as a lisaon between the coders on the forums, and the developers with CVS access. They would need to be a good developer, and have a very solid grasp on the EQEmu code. They could find the code on the forums, diff it if it isn't already, find immediate mistakes with it and either correct it themselves, or give it back to the author. Then, pass the mostly polished code up to whoever. If they deny it, the liason would then send the code back to the author and either let them know what's wrong, or have them contact the CVS developer directly. Of course I have no power to make this a reality, it's just an idea really. I think instead of fighting back and forth, that's what we need to do come up with ideas and put them into motion.

Maybe this project shouldn't be too far beyond the structure of a typical office environment in that aspect? Is there someone technical and familiar enough with the project that the devs wouldn't mind keeping in the loop, that could act as a liason to the community?

I agree completely.

Richardo

08-29-2007, 04:36 AM

viva la Dark Horizons! -We had working bards for pete sakes! Where's our credits????

mattmeck

08-29-2007, 11:27 AM

TheLieka

08-29-2007, 12:58 PM

If that's the case, and the devs refuse to talk to anyone, including their community liason, then what are our options?

Honestly, the ball is in their court. I'm sure the devs are, and have been, reading this thread and quietly hoping that it will go away. This is the point when someone normally swoops in, locks the thread and tells everyone that if they EVER hear any negative feedback again, they will ban everyone in the community and unplug the server (or whatever).

I'm hoping that this time will be different. It appears that there's a pretty unified feeling here that something needs a change. I think that the community would be excited to see more transparency with this project, and by cutting off communication (most likely due to busy schedules and other engagements), the community only sees that things appear to have become stagnant and shitty.

The motivation for the devs to come out and make a move is this: You guys are busting your asses for this project, but the community doesn't see it. You get this feeling that no one gives a shit about how much time or effort that you put into the project, and no one seems to truly appreciate the asset that is our current dev team. The problem is, even if you spend 24/7/365 on ONLY this project, the community still wouldn't understand. That's because the community doesn't realize how much work goes into one of those little lines in the changelog, but then again how could you expect them to? It's not your job to make them understand that, and when you try to, you'll just end up more tired and pissed off than you started (and the community will likely still not understand). That's why you guys NEED a liaison/project manager/public relations person (we'll call it a liaison for the sake of discussion)

If you, the dev team, decided to make your move, by first asking each other if any of you wants out. This is a GPL project, there's no reason for anyone to feel trapped in it. Next, decide that you are going to make a change, and start talking to MattMeck, or hell, if you guys hate him, pick someone else (sorry Matt, nothing against you at all. ;) ), but find yourself a liaison that you can trust and work with. Come clean with any dirty little secrets that you guys have been keeping (I'm not implying that there are any, but the first step to transparency (and an overall happy project) is to make sure that everyone feels like they can be open and honest). Again, this is a GPL project, not an arms race. After that, I'd suggest working with your liaison (just for the sake of this discussion let's call him MattMeck), to get the community actively involved and excited, and pick out some new devs from the community, or like Angelox said, start calling everyone devs. It's not like you're going to lose your green jacket for bringing someone else into the club. Hell, maybe you could run some contests for finding and fixing bugs, or Hawaiian shirt Friday, it doesn't matter, just something that will be a change from the whole "I am the god of Mt. SourceForge, and I don't answer to anyone" image of you guys that the community has developed. No one appreciates or respects that. What people appreciate and respect is human beings who are open, honest, inclusive, yes, even fallible.

There are a million and one ways that this thing could go, but if you choose (and yes, the power is completely within your hands) to go with what's listed above, I will personally claim responsibility if anything goes wrong (because I've used it at least 15 times in my professional career, and it's worked through every single situation).

Discuss. ;)

Dax

tcsmyworld

08-29-2007, 01:11 PM

Gotta love people who come on and claim to have put all the work into a project, totally ignoring or intentionally disregarding/downplaying the efforts of others that had the same responsability for several years prior, and DID make the sacrifices of running the project on home boxes/bandwidth.
But that doesn't count for anything, so long as the people who have control today are recognized, no matter how spread out they make themselves(must be good for everything) ,all must be good.
It's a good idea, I guess, in the eyes of the few who are in control to piss off the players and run off as many old-school contributors as possible, leaving them to take all the credit.
Contributors such as myself, who have been members, contributors for many years, but now I'm informed that I had nothing to do with anything, so I guess the years I wasted here were for absolutely nothing, something to think about when putting in your time and money to this whole thing.

Memener

08-29-2007, 01:39 PM

Hey tcs! as I was reading and I started think about you and Im glad you replyed to this.. your one of the key players of this project(Project Everquest founder) I think! If it wasn't for you, I think thier wouldn't be any movement in the database or as good as it is today!!! I also see that no one said anything about Hoogie.

In my eyes I see a project thats "open source" if you have fix for a "BIG" problem you should post it or show a work around, other wise you should brag or say I knew that was going to happen.(just think if MS did that) .. Everyone in this team is good at something so we should be a TEAM and fix the mess called EqEmu. I would love to see more advance-ment in this project.

gernblan

08-29-2007, 01:48 PM

The liaison use to be me, however there is zero communication coming from anyone in the development team.

The idea worked very well for a long time, I am not sure whats going on with the dev team, they dont respond to e-mails, PM's and never seem to be on IRC (idle but not responsive).

This started months ago and continues today, I cant get answers, help, anything at all.

This is the state of the emulator, the devs separated themselves, weither due to them spending less time on eqemu, moved onto other things, who knows.

I have an in box full of questions, comments, demands, and complaints from the community, and i cant answer a single question because of this.

Then, like I said already in this thread, maybe a fork is needed.

If the people in charge are THAT unreachable, then someone else needs to step up who is. Or they need to step down, or defer, or do SOMETHING to connect the developers again.

Hey, at least this thread has exposed something that people have been wondering for awhile now.

Maybe NOW we can all discuss a way to fix this.

Remember, this is about the CODE. Everyone, please drop the finger pointing crap. Please. Let's all come together and solve this problem. This emulator is TOO GOOD to die.

devn00b

08-29-2007, 02:33 PM

Richardo

08-29-2007, 03:07 PM

TheLieka

08-29-2007, 04:42 PM

Why don't you guys just create your own LS, most recent code and (your favorite database) and start your own eqemu project if you're worried about the progress. Hell, i'm sure Mattmeck wouldn't object to creating a new section to the eqemu forums for all of you "contributors that want to upkeep eqemu" to start the build on a more sucessful eqemu. I mean, you don't have to create your own LS either.. Just work on a successor to the current builds, together. That is the reason of opensource, right?

I'd prefer to see an attempt at reconciling the current communication issues before someone jumps the gun and forks the project. I don't think it will help anyone to split EQEmu into distinctive factions. All it would take is reopening these closed communication channels to get things back on track, but again, it's up to the devs to step in here and post their thoughts.

sfisque

08-29-2007, 05:28 PM

Again how was I supposed to post somthing when my ip was banned from here, and irc? I dont have the patch files anymore as it was many moons ago, and when i left the project I deleted everything except my database.

fair enough, but if you have "knowledge", aka, you know where the problem is.. e.g. its in the zone server, when a player object has its inventory injected, etc., then a pointer with a quick blurb would be cool. knowledge isnt as good as a concrete patch file, but its worth more than nothing, if its communicated, know what i mean?

== sfisque

moydock

08-29-2007, 05:29 PM

I think the devs have just been doing this a long time and, understandably don't want to give it a lot of attention anymore. Which is probably compounded by the guilt of not working on it often which makes them want to work on it less. I'd think they'd want someone active to step up and lead the project and let them work on it when they get excited about it again. However, it's probably pretty difficult to find a qualified person. Although at this point someone half-decent would be better than what we have now.
Either way, KLS has been doing some good updates. As long as we aren't going 3-months without updates I'm not going to freak out.

Richardo

08-29-2007, 06:22 PM

I vote a community owned repository/build... (Dev version builds/source and then community version builds/source) which can be controlled by community developers (to create less hassle of some jerk coming in and fucking it all up)

John Adams

08-30-2007, 11:20 AM

Because i was banned from the website, and the irc. After that ive gone through so many hard drives and shit the code just got lost. Again fault of the "devs" not mine
While I do not always agree with devn00b's presentation, I do have to agree that getting shite on (or even the perception of being shite on) by your 'team' warrants no effort to hand over my work. That would be like your boss coming up and saying "You're fired, but before you go can you complete your TPS reports?"

Uh, no. <finger> ;)

What I WOULD like to know is, how to detect these "hackurs", either via logging in the emu or 3rd party tools. I've been forced to run Abyss on a Windows server due to something going on that is crashing the Linux code. Now I am worried. I have 10 years of midget porn I need to protect.

TheLieka

08-31-2007, 02:50 AM

While I do not always agree with devn00b's presentation, I do have to agree that getting shite on (or even the perception of being shite on) by your 'team' warrants no effort to hand over my work. That would be like your boss coming up and saying "You're fired, but before you go can you complete your TPS reports?"

Uh, no. <finger> ;)

What I WOULD like to know is, how to detect these "hackurs", either via logging in the emu or 3rd party tools. I've been forced to run Abyss on a Windows server due to something going on that is crashing the Linux code. Now I am worried. I have 10 years of midget porn I need to protect.

Here, here, for midget porn!

From my understanding though, it's a buffer overrun that is created within the EQEmu code. I don't think that having Linux vs Windows (without knowing exactly what's happening to take action to prevent it) would make a difference.

Could someone in the know throw out a little info for us to look into? I'd be happy to monkeypaw around in the code and try to find it. I'm not a software dev (I did get an associates in CS back in college (it was so my credits would transfer for my bachelor's, long story, don't ask), but I do know systems and networking pretty damn well. If there's something that I could do to assist, I'd be delighted to help.

Dax

froglok23

08-31-2007, 03:39 AM

Hi all,

Most of you won’t know me, I kind of phase in and out of EQEmu. I originally got involved back with EQEmu 5.5 by writing some tools to add items to NPCs loot list and such. Since then, due to outside commitments, I've been phasing in and out.

I’ve seen eh team change so much, that the only people I remember now are LE, image and devnoob really.

Gee, that was quite a few years ago....

However, back to the point. After all my years of phasing in and out, long time reading, first time poster sort of thing I really wanted to get back involved in official dev'ing for EQEMU.. Why? Because it’s a fucken awesome project. However, from my own experiences, I have noticed things which prevent this.

First and foremost, the lack of communications which has already been drummed to death on this thread. Really there’s no too little communication between what’s happening with the project and whatnot.

This makes it hard to find out exactly what is going on. Then when you finally get the balls to ask what’s happening in IRC, majority of the time is attitude and smart arse remarks. I don’t know what this steams from, as I said, this I just my personal experience.

Secondly, as my own career has lead me too many senior development rolls, I’ve seen a lot of projects and the one thing which keeps a project is alive, besides communication, is collaboration. People working together and sharing ideas.

This does happen with EQEmu, but generally your only listen to if your known or have been around forever (but by no means I’m saying I’ve been around forever, haven’t not contributed to the office code in any form).

I think what EQEmu firstly needs is a clean stand on where it is heading, lay down some process, control, accountability. Now granted this is a community project, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have design documents, open forums between devs, admins and users.

I did talk to FWN(I think I got it right) and he did point me to some basic documentation on the wiki on the architectures used in EQEmu.

Hopefully he will agree in saying this, when it comes to EQEmu, it fails miserably on the topic of collaboration, certainly in the dev area.

Thirdly, al the pointes previously stated by other members, code not making it into the official release, and what code is made part of the official really is bandaids and hardly documented.

If we want EQEmu to succeed to a point where it’s stable and playable with all functionality to titanium, then we need to implement some process, control and accountability.

Lastly, this is more of a pet hate than anything else, which may or may not reflect on the site (so sorry for going off topic, but it’s *semi* related). The site is bloody dark.

Could we lighten it up, more recent updates, a better user experience?

Our own little community here in OZ, we have both EQ (EQEmu) and WOW (mangos) servers running and the portal for the wow server is simply amazing (granted I’m not a big fan of wow), but it looks good and it gets people attracted to it.

Now, this is all well and good you might say, but who’s going to step up to the task.....

Well I for one would gladly offer my skills in the software development and process & control sections. Having been a project manager on MANY different kinds of projects, I feel that my controbution could have a positive effect on the EQEmu project and community.

I’m also sure, there are a bunch of people feeling the same way, who feel that they could bring a new era to the project. So why don’t we?

In order for this to happen, realalisticly (and some people aren’t going to like this), the project needs a revamp, on a management level.

If the dev's have lost instrest (burn out is 110% normal, etc) then they need to either step down or be forced to step down and had over controller.

Does anyone (who is an official staff member) have access to the security for the CVS to grant new members official access to the source tree?

Also, let’s get the code documented, some processes & controls in. The Wiki could be the perfect spot for this...

Also talking with FWN, there’s no official bug list or anything like that... That is going to have to change with more process and control around it.

Now... DONT get me wrong, we don’t want to go Nazi with it, but I feel that the project needs some revolutionary changes to move forward and get out of this rut as it was.

All of which, I’m glad to donate my time and serves to helping, but thus far, 98% of my questions or ideas, have been met with smart arse remarks or land on deaf ears (or fingers as it is the case online).

Now also, as I stated, these are just my personal views and may appear very generic and broad, but they are made with the best intentions to get the project in full swing.

As someone said, it will only take a hand full of people to get EQEmu project energy levels up and though the roof again!

Froglok

P.S this is not an attack on anyone or the project; personally I just think it is time for change.

P.S.S I would also like to point out that previous devs have done a outstanding job in getting EQEmu to where it is today! (But, we need to change to move it forward)

P.S.S This post is intended to by constructive criticism

froglok23

08-31-2007, 03:41 AM

Sorry all for the long and ungly post :(

TheLieka

08-31-2007, 04:31 AM

I agree completely. I have nothing else to add to that. I harbor no ill will to the devs, and only want what's best for this project.

I've got a lot of infrastucture design, implementation, management, and documentation experience, as well as having worked as a project manager during the first part of my career. EQEmu is a very personal thing to me, and I am more than willing to contribute anything that I can offer to make this project soar again.

Let me know what I can do, and I'll get started

Dax

gernblan

08-31-2007, 04:37 AM

Why don't you guys just create your own LS, most recent code and (your favorite database) and start your own eqemu project if you're worried about the progress. Hell, i'm sure Mattmeck wouldn't object to creating a new section to the eqemu forums for all of you "contributors that want to upkeep eqemu" to start the build on a more sucessful eqemu. I mean, you don't have to create your own LS either.. Just work on a successor to the current builds, together. That is the reason of opensource, right?

Yeah except that after releasing the LS originally as GPL, they pulled it back and refuse to distribute it, even though it was licensed GPL (once GPL, always GPL).

Thus, one point of failure was artificially created, which would be fine if that point didn't fail. But when even their own appointed liaison can't reach them, and they guard the code that allows people to use what IS out there.... well, you do the math ;)

Look, I respect the heads of this project a LOT. I just wish they'd explain why things are the way they are, and maybe do something to eliminate this bottleneck.

froglok23

08-31-2007, 04:50 AM

Regarding the Login Server source code...

Don’t beat a dead horse. It’s only going to be seen as bad criticism and shut out the administration team more from our concerns.

The primary reason the logion server source code is not public availably is of the encryption that is needed for login details and ultimately... credit card details (used to be, dunno about now).

I Agree with the Dev Team on this one, The Login Server Source code being publicly available, have the potential to kill the entire Project... Why? Because (if I remember correctly, maybe someone with more expertise in the area can confirm or disprove this) is because it will bring the full wrath of SoE down on us.

Which we DO NOT WANT! We want EQEmu to thrive. EQEmu and SoE seem o be balanced and as such, SoE leaves EQEmu alone.

However that being said, if Minilogin could be adaptor to allow the running of private servers, just not enforce IP (this may not be possible, due to encryption) then I think it would be a goer.

But as it stands, Keep the Login Server source code, closed source and locked away, these no need to have it available.
However, if the encryption in live has changed enough to warrant the current encryption useless, they maybe I could be released and binary... hoping for anything more is just not going to happen.
Any who, let’s not turn this into a thread about login server... there’s millions on the same topic... let’s keep focused.

John Adams

08-31-2007, 10:07 AM

Agreed, Froggy (btw, welcome back :)). If people have not gotten it through their thick skulls by now the reason the LS source is NOT open source, then they never will. It's moot, it's not even the PROBLEM, and always ends in one sentiment: get over it.

It's not going to be released, no matter how many times you bring it up. Dreams of becoming your own Hub are not going to happen.

devn00b

08-31-2007, 10:38 AM

Here is the deal with the login server. The original were talkin the 1.2 days hgere guys login server was GPLed, However the crypto (a seperate project that compiled to a .dll) hat went along with it to make it all work was not. Quagmire never wanted it released. I released the old login server, along with the compiled .dll file. I'm sure if you wanted it you could find it. The current login server is a bastardized version written by doodman (and probably others but hey), wich is not under GPL as I understand it.

gernblan

08-31-2007, 11:13 AM

OK then I stand corrected in terms of the LS.

Sakrateri

08-31-2007, 12:07 PM

Hey Dev, remind me again what version that Login worked with.....

Angelox

08-31-2007, 05:32 PM

Which we DO NOT WANT! We want EQEmu to thrive. EQEmu and SoE seem o be balanced and as such, SoE leaves EQEmu alone.

SOE does not take any action against EQEMU because EQEMU is no real threat to them atm. If EqEmu ever did get organized and developed into a large player-base, I can pretty much guarantee you, they will get shut down. Right now, all EqEmu is, is a "Demo" of what the real Everquest is, and if anything, will attract players to the live game.

froglok23

08-31-2007, 07:20 PM

very true Angelox, more than likly it will attact people back to live, but still, the less attention we get form SoE the better I say. :)

Id much prefer this project to stay alive then get the wrath of SoE :)

-froglok

crazycloud

08-31-2007, 08:38 PM

~RD~ No, we're not derailing this thread with that.

monoxideftw

08-31-2007, 09:20 PM

~RD~ Removed

oh snap haha

froglok23

08-31-2007, 09:40 PM

Focus people, lets not turn this into a bitching thread, about what people did or did not do.

Lets discuss ideas on how to get the project back on track....

If you want to btich, name call and shit liek the last 2 posts, make a new thread!

-froglok

froglok23

08-31-2007, 10:11 PM

So far, these are the ideas / topics which need addressing

1. Dev Team - Finding out what is going on.
- Do they need to step down?
- OR - Do they need to rejoin to the community?
- OR - Do we need to forcibly appoint new developers?
- OR - Do they need to appoint new developers to join their ranks?

2. Documentation & Collaboration
We need to pick up the level of documentation associated with the project to be better focused.
Documentation of the code needs to be done
Collaboration between various teams (database, EQEmu and the community)

3. Process and Control
Investigate what process and controls are currently in place
Develop new processes and control for development of both EQEmu and various databases. (I.e. official release process, documentation process & control, making items official, alpha & beta)
Implement Process and Control though the project (i.e. what process is used to get new code in, what process is used to ensure the quality of code that is making it into the CVS, etc)
Quality Gates - Do we have any? Should we have them to stop potential harmful or under developed code making into the CVS? (I so think we should!)

4. Attitude
Stop the bullshit attitudes which can be seen though the forums and IRC. This just pisses people who want to help off.
IRC at best is a hostile place with only 20-25 people in it, 90% of which just idle. We need to change this around... people won’t like this, but if they are arseholes, /quit and take their servers with them. I’m sure people are willing to run IRC Servers (i.e. I will gladly run one for EQEmu)

5. Revamp the Site.
Use a better colour scheme
Keep the site up to date with relevant and current information

6. Audit
Where exactly is the code base at, what can be improved, what can be refracted, etc

Where exactly is the databases at (i.e. lets get a working expansion by expansion database going (this has been the case for the 2 major ones thus far, but still, we need to identify just where they are at and make it know))

7. Supporting Services
Let’s take advantage of services offered by SourceForge, i.e. bug lists and such. Currently I can find 2 bug lists, both of which were updated well, really last year some time and are so not relevant it’s not funny.

That all I can think of off the top of my head, I’m sure we can refine these topics, maybe cut some down and add some, as always, these are just my personal views and opinions, please feel free to comment and suggest different views.

8. Education of the community.
Lets education the community not to be dumb arses and constantly arse the same questions over and over again. This just pisses everyone off if the same questions are asked (i.e. when we are going to live, why I can’t get the login server source code, etc).

9. Investigate other services and technologies which can better the EQEmu Project

Let’s get some momentum behind this peoples!

-froglok

tcsmyworld

09-01-2007, 02:39 AM

Let's see.......

#1 A couple of the devs that are still hanging out, and contributing silently, have contributed that way for a long time.
I do agree it's time for change, but there are a few Old-school devs that deserve thier positions, if for nothing else still being here for the project.
There definately needs to be a link between the Devs and the public, but I don't think that is a priority at this time since the same small group are controlling the emu and the DB project, public input isn't really needed, so not a top priority.

#2 Code commenting has always been a bit laxed/loose (some of it used to be pretty colorful :) )
A few people have tried to clean up the commenting along the way, but the code has been around awhile, and would take quite the effort to try to do more than generalize and condense what's there.
Alot of it is that way because it's been patched/fixed/changed/commented out, etc to accomodate different other code changes, etc, etc.
Becomes a nightmare real quick.
Set up guidelines for new code additions?? Min / Max comment structure??
That way we at least get the newer code/fixes/patches covered.

I think the whole thing ran better when the Development team was the development team and the DB projects, not just PEQ were being worked on by thier own seperate teams, each running thier own server with public input being a key element in the process.
If the key people don't recognize player/public input as important, the players will drop out or move on, and the more we lose , the smaller the community gets.
We need to spark up some community spirit, drag out some old screen shots from a few years back, remember way back in 2002 when npc's first started moving??... OK bouncing/sliding/slingshotting/and disappearing, but they didn't stand still :)
Back then EVERYONE got excited and wanted to jump in and help, no matter how inept or uncoordinated they were, they still wanted to help.
We need that kind of spark again, get some fresh faces to come forward and show us that they too have some great ideas/fixes/changes to add, or just to help out with input and general help to newbs on the forum/irc.
If we really want the project to be better, we need to fix it, it's supposed to be a community effort.

#3 According to the original mission of PEQ, each expansion was to be finished, tested, fine tuned then released.
It's become hard to stick to the mission plan evidently, since now the addition of multiple expansions and even non expansion correct additons have become commonplace, as a means to pacify players I guess, and I see new posts all the time mentioning overlooked npc's or objects from zones that should have been finished from prior expansions.
Rushing the work always leads to disaster, It may take a bit longer, and people may complain along the way, but when they source the DB in it should work, and be of High Quality, not a work in progress that needs hours of work.

As for the Emulator end, the coders in the community need to maybe form a panel, have new code snippets/fixes/changes reviewed once a week or so and any valid code be commited on at least a weekly basis, so that the fix that was made this week isn't sitting in a forgotten post for weeks at a time.
If need be , have community elections, among qualified persons to head up the panel???
Elect a couple people, not just one, that are capable of commiting the code so there is always someone available for the weekly commit???
Quality control is a must, not sure what is in place, if anything right now.

#4 The attitude in irc has been there since I came here a LONG time ago.
It used to irritate me too, when I created #npcmovdb channel, we would try to help the people and be decent, and we had quite a few people that would stop by and comment on how nice it was to log into our channel, get an answer (even a correct one most of the time) without all the hassle.
I guess it's easier to bark at the newbs and discourage them , than it is to answer a question, and satisfy thier need so they can go about business.
Anyways, point being EqEmu irc has always been and probably will always be, an attitude waiting to happen, there are actually a few of the irc channels that help people :)

#5 Agree completely, like black, but we went a wee bit overboard???
Color is good, color is your friend.
Would be great to have relevant info maintained regularly, but we get back to the lack of shared information again, and the persons with the access to do so being available to actually do it.

#6 See #3

#7 I guess it's just easier to have the bugs reported on the forums for the individual projects, makes it easier to keep track of them, if the team actually monitors the forum I know that the DB bug forum got a good workout, and the resolved bugs section is looking bigger all the time.

#8 It's funny, everyone who has been here more than six months says the same thing about asking stupid, asked a million times questions, but they are the same stupid-asked a million times questions that EVERYONE asked and got chewed out for when they arrived new and exicted about playing EQ on a "Player run server"......

That's my view on things, not that anyone really gives a shit anymore.

EqEmu has survived many rough spots/times through the years, it has it's ups and downs but somehow always seems to survive.

froglok23

09-01-2007, 07:19 AM

HI all,

It just occurred to (a link between exploiting which has been going on and a warning I’m getting), when I compile EQEmu in VS 2k5 (following the guide) I get the following warnings:

Warning 1 warning C4996: 'sprintf' was declared deprecated c:\eqemu-0.7.0-1034\common\sharedlibrary.cpp 110

Which, originally I just wrote off as *nix being compiled on windows and didn’t give it much thought... well that was silly of me.

sprintf is unsafe and can be exploited with buffer overflows.

What’s a buffer overflow? In short, it’s when a block of data in written to a buffer that is too small.

I.e. writing 10 chars to a buffer which can only handle 8 chars.

The solution for this (at least on windows) is to use sprtinf_s.

Or for a more generic solution (cross platform) snprintf which ahs these safety checks.

What’s people’s ideas / thoughts?

- froglok

P.S for more information about buffer overflows, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_overflow

Angelox

09-01-2007, 07:28 AM

fork (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/f/fork.html)

To split source code into different development directions. Forking leads to the development of different versions of a program. Forking often occurs when the development of a piece of open source code has reached an impasse. The project is forked so that the code can be developed independently in different ways with different results.

Had to look it up since I wasn't really sure exactly what a "fork" was. And I guess for me to fully understand what this means, I had to look up the true meaning to what the word "impass" means (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impasse); in short, it's like a stalemate in a chess game, for whatever reason - in our case, we are at an "impass", due to simple lack of comunication.
I guess already there has been a "fork", when the original dev(s) were booted out, for whatever reasons. If the original Devs decide to continue their direction, then they will rightfully hold the original source, and what we have now is a fork? How about the databases: should they be considered as part of the "source" , and if so, where is the original database that should have been what we all worked on?

I'd prefer to see an attempt at reconciling the current communication issues before someone jumps the gun and forks the project. I don't think it will help anyone to split EQEmu into distinctive factions. All it would take is reopening these closed communication channels to get things back on track, but again, it's up to the devs to step in here and post their thoughts.

froglok23

09-01-2007, 08:04 AM

Angelox,

Thanks for posting that info, even gave me a better understanding too (which is never a bad thing).

I don’t think forking the project is worth it at this stage to be honest.

Lets reconcile and get communication flowing again, that should the main priority in my opinion.

As for the database... hmm, that’s a bit more of a complex issue, due to the database... Well databases... The 2 main versions, which gets preference / priority over the other? Should a 3rd be created, which houses both of them, etc?

- froglok

cavedude

09-01-2007, 11:28 AM

I always felt there were room for 2 and maybe more databases. That's why I released mine after hording it for a few months. I wasn't trying to compete with FNW's PEQ, but rather I wanted to offer people a choice. I have to say, if it wasn't for Angelox's database I might not have accepted FNW's offer to take over PEQ because then we'd be back to one db and no choice for the players.

Angelox once compared database design with art and he was right on the money with that analogy. That being said, there should be no official database project. Players have the right to choose which they like to use based on personal preference whether it be technical or political. Hell, people still ask me for my old database. Much of it has been merged into PEQ, but people often don't want to deal with the evil empire that is PEQ. I can understand it, normally, I support the small guy too.

Richardo

09-01-2007, 12:52 PM

TheLieka

09-01-2007, 01:59 PM

Ok, I think that we're all agreeing on the what(s), now we're just haggling on the how(s).

we can sit here and negotiate this all day (for weeks), but someone needs to grab the reigns and run with it.

Suggested Execution:
Collaboration Space:
Matt, would it be possible for you to split the dev section to add a "Community" dev section?

Since I don't think we want to do a full project fork, but the devs don't want to take the time to test / add the community code, I suggest that we take their code changes and test / add them to our code, as if it was submitted by the community. At that point, we would be able to keep a comprehensive source version, rather than a rogue code source.

Over time, I feel that this approach would make the community code, the official source for the project.

Code Repository
We will need someone (please step up and volunteer) to set up a repository for code builds. I guess this would be done through source forge. Whoever sets this up, should delegate to a few trusted people to keep this clean.

We should have all the official working database tools up there as well, along with a comprehensive guide on building the source. There are 45 different guides on the forums and wiki, and none of them work 100%, they all expect that you've used Visual Studio or whatever tool before. We need to make this project accessible to the masses. If anyone is willing to come in and join this team, they should be welcomed and treated with respect. We gain NOTHING from flaming new people. Let me repeat that:

We gain NOTHING from flaming new people.

Let's get this thing started. What other items need to be handled?

Dax

image

09-01-2007, 04:46 PM

Can't quote froglok here but 2005 did depreciate sprintf, but I believe snprintf should still work and it allows you to specify the max size of the buffer.

froglok23

09-01-2007, 09:00 PM

we can sit here and negotiate this all day (for weeks), but someone needs to grab the reigns and run with it.

Id rather take a little time and plan this before we just go about on our way and end up in extactly the same spot.

Suggested Execution:
Collaboration Space:

Matt, would it be possible for you to split the dev section to add a "Community" dev section?

WEe do alrady have this, but its so under used :(

Since I don't think we want to do a full project fork, but the devs don't want to take the time to test / add the community code, I suggest that we take their code changes and test / add them to our code, as if it was submitted by the community. At that point, we would be able to keep a comprehensive source version, rather than a rogue code source.

Over time, I feel that this approach would make the community code, the official source for the project.

This is so not what we want in my opinion, we dont want to have 2 seperate versions, a offical and community version. we want an offical version which the community contributes to.

Code Repository
We will need someone (please step up and volunteer) to set up a repository for code builds. I guess this would be done through source forge. Whoever sets this up, should delegate to a few trusted people to keep this clean.

See above, I belive we shoudl only have 1 source tree

We should have all the official working database tools up there as well, along with a comprehensive guide on building the source. There are 45 different guides on the forums and wiki, and none of them work 100%, they all expect that you've used Visual Studio or whatever tool before. We need to make this project accessible to the masses. If anyone is willing to come in and join this team, they should be welcomed and treated with respect. We gain NOTHING from flaming new people. Let me repeat that:

We gain NOTHING from flaming new people.

Unfortantly, I dont think we have any offical 3rd party tools. Maybe this is somethign we realyl need to consider and extend for EQEmu.

Let's get this thing started. What other items need to be handled?

1000% agree here, but we want to putit on the right path now and as such, I think creatuing another source tree/fork is so not the way to go. I belvie we shoudl get the current devs back into the community and go from there

Once again, jus tmy opinion

-froglok

froglok23

09-01-2007, 09:03 PM

Sorry if my previous post sounds harsh, but spliting it to a offical and community version is somehting i feel very strongly that we shoudl avoid.

1 release is the way to go and then patches for custom code.

In order to ensure community code gets put into the offical project, we woudl need a process for code submissions, reviews, quality assurance and then finally merge it into the sourcer tree.

- froglok

froglok23

09-01-2007, 09:11 PM

Over time, I feel that this approach would make the community code, the official source for the project.

The issue which would have to be addressed would be quality of the source code. As a software dev over nearly 15 years, we only want quality source code in the project to ensure security, stability and flexibility and sorry to say, but not all code provides this when submitted. This isn’t a bad thing, it’s just not everyone is up to the task of writing high grade code. This is where the dev team needs to check the code submitted and rewrite it if need to ensure its quality.

If we just allow anyone to add code, we are going to open sooooo many problems. I.e. even more security exploits, laggy or buggy code.
This is so not what we want in my opinion, we don’t want to have 2 separate versions, an official and community version. We want an official version which the community contributes to.
First things first tho, we need to get input from the dev team before we all run off and do our own this. Let’s make EQEmu united again, not fractured more.
Any who, its Fathers day here (my 2nd one) and im off to a bbq, so tonight ill have more input and start typing up some policy and process which the community can review and have input on :)

- froglok

gernblan

09-02-2007, 06:55 AM

I really think this thread is going somewhere :)

gernblan

09-02-2007, 06:57 AM

Personally, I'd like to see a merge of the major databases. To me, it's silly watching them all get developed independently when all have pretty much the same goal. Seems like a lot of duplicated effort and wasted calories.

I am not saying that there should only be one database though. I do think that at least the efforts to duplicate EQ Live should be merged and shared into one major database. Then people can fork that off, add their own ideas, and release their superset versions.

froglok23

09-02-2007, 07:20 AM

gernblan,

Do you mean a database, which would be the "offical" database and then the fortks woudl be PEQ/AX?

Personally, i think thats how it shoudl be also, but I think both are 2 far ahead of this, unless both teams communicate. Then comes the support roles, whos going to look after it, etc

1 Suggestion for this (may or may not be practical), would be both teams combining... however this would then limit peoples options, which people tend to avoid for obvious reasons.

Im for and against this personally lol (to quote ralph, im HAPPY and ANGRY).

Is this something, which can be flushged out more in a new thread under world / database building maybe?

- froglok

froglok23

09-02-2007, 07:22 AM

I really think this thread is going somewhere :)

:D I do believe also, however we need more input from the admins / staff / devs *poke poke*

The more input we get, the more momentum we will get, which will in result start a massive movement! Let’s get the communication lines open!

- froglok

Angelox

09-02-2007, 07:44 AM

I was hoping someone else would say this, as it too is usually taken in a wrong way (specially when it comes from me).
I always thought this to be a good idea.
http://eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22209
At one time, Sesmar had started somthing like this, there was a database for us to build on, then there was the test server database where it eventually went to.
I was thinking, it would have to be a thing where, a person would get appointed a zone to work on (to avoid stepping on each others toes). For example, I want to do some work on gfay: somewhere it's posted angelox is working gfay for the next x-amount of days. If there was a general update to a group of zones this would have to be considered.
I wouldn't expect many people to be doing database work, so something like this would probably work.
Also, aside from the PEQ Editor, we would just have to be trusted, and granted shell access. some kind of port access for tools like the MySql ones. I found it very hard and frustrating, having to create sqls for someone else to run (I've had to do this with many servers).
In my case, I have a database, and will be mostly "porting" at first. < i think we would have to start with one of the database, rename it and port the rest. I'm not sure if all can be merged without problems.
With a good log system, we can prune out anyone who doesn't follow protocol, and with a good back up system we wouldn't loose much if someone screwed up.

Personally, I'd like to see a merge of the major databases. To me, it's silly watching them all get developed independently when all have pretty much the same goal. Seems like a lot of duplicated effort and wasted calories.

I am not saying that there should only be one database though. I do think that at least the efforts to duplicate EQ Live should be merged and shared into one major database. Then people can fork that off, add their own ideas, and release their superset versions.

froglok23

09-02-2007, 07:49 AM

With a good log system, we can prune out anyone who doesn't follow protocol, and with a good back up system we wouldn't loose much if someone screwed up.

This could be done with #DEFINE EQEMUDBEDITOMODE with the source, to allow full loggin for database editors and such.

Very much doable indeed!

- froglok

John Adams

09-02-2007, 01:25 PM

Meh, I am a firm believer in at least 1 standard, core database - and for me, that has always been PEQ. I believe their efforts to make a most-live-like database has worked perfectly, even if they do not release updates in a nice, clean packaged manner every 2 hours. :/ We had 2 or more "main" databases before, and while they both offered great content, it was often very confusing to try and "merge" them together. PEQ => Cavedude's. Then, Angelox made a database which became the next major step in a complete, live-like database. Cavedudes was merged into PEQ more or less, and is no longer required as a separate source of info.

To a newcomer, having all these different databases can be overwhelming. Whatever the end result, having ONE STABLE CORE database really needs to be our goal. No matter how "controls" it, no matter who "developed" it. You start splintering things here, we are no better than the WoWSpasm project, where every one is a dev, everyone is a db engineer, and every server is teh ubar shiznit best server/db on the planez.

I like CORE. Custom is that; custom. But 9 times out of 10, admins do not release their custom db's because it's theirs. I'd hate to end up seeing 20 custom EQEmu databases because everyone learned the term "fork" (which I think you actually mean branch, but ok :)).

devn00b

09-02-2007, 03:59 PM

z0mg gw db pwns all beyoches!

side note, i think the lack of response from doodman, fnw tells volumes. Back when the REAL dev team was together we came to the forums alot and i mean ALOT, Hogie at the time had the highest post count. As soon as the devlopers closed off themselves, closed up accepting new code (sept a few bits here and there) everything went down hill.

Developers releasing builds with the following comments "Tested on XXX platform but not XXX" is not acceptable either, "back in the day" that would never have happened. "oh it compiles ship it!

oldlurker

09-02-2007, 04:09 PM

Boon, flawfinder, rats and other C source scanners might be a good start for finding this exploit.

Btw: I would sugest to see that the Moderators start doing some moderating and bring the hammer down on (the few) people who do not contribute and keep derailing threads for the sake of their ego.

John Adams

09-02-2007, 06:16 PM

Btw: I would sugest to see that the Moderators start doing some moderating and bring the hammer down on (the few) people who do not contribute and keep derailing threads for the sake of their ego.
Believe me, oldlurker... if I had the power, some accounts would be banned just because I don't like their pot-stirring antics. Unfortunately, all I can do is lock or delete threads - the latter I usually do not do because I rather enjoy the more intelligent community members seeing the true mental capacity of 'the tools'.

froglok23

09-02-2007, 08:12 PM

side note, i think the lack of response from doodman, fnw tells volumes.

I have to agree :( We need to get input from them and we need to to move the project forward, with each day that passes by without them posting the information we need, makes it that much harder to continue without appointing a new dev team :(

Sorry guys, but we need active develoeprs who, not only code, but be an active member of the community.

- froglok

TheLieka

09-02-2007, 11:52 PM

I have to agree :( We need to get input from them and we need to to move the project forward, with each day that passes by without them posting the information we need, makes it that much harder to continue without appointing a new dev team :(

Sorry guys, but we need active develoeprs who, not only code, but be an active member of the community.

- froglok

Frog, I don't want to get into a piss fight with you, as I think that we are in agreement about 99% of our points.

In fact, I think the only difference I see between us right now is that I've given up on the idea of feedback from the devs (after about the 5th day of this thread, with no input from FNW and Doodman). My post was not to be taken as "Hey guys, I've got a great idea", but rather "They are not going to acknowledge this, then we need to move on it without them."

Granted, as they say: “There's no reason to replace one tyrant three thousand miles away with three thousand tyrants one mile away”, and I don't think we should be rash and shoot ourselves in the foot; however, I think we need to start planning and move on this with the concept that the devs are NOT going to all come out and say "omg, afk, sorry". They clearly don't care about this, and aren't going to acknowledge it.

I don't think we need two versions of the source, but the community is the project, not man behind the curtain. At this point, saying "Let's wait for the devs" is like saying "don't worry, God will sort it out for us." Sorry guys, but if I thought the power of prayer was going to set this project free, I wouldn't be posting to these forums.

With that said, I don't see any need in hijacking the code, and claiming the SourceForge in the name of France or anything like that. In fact, there's really no reason to involve the current dev team if they don't choose to be included. Instead, as I said before, let's just set up shop next door, elect a new dev team and move on. If for some reason the devs decide that they'd like to be involved with what we're doing, then dandy! If they choose to stay silent, then whatever. I just don't think getting this far then saying "wait, you didn't say we were going to actually do anything" shows a lot of commitment. If we're going to go, let's go. If we're just going to sit on our thumbs and wait for the devs to say something, then I'll go find something else productive to do (like gnaw through an artery).

If all the devs decided that they never wanted anything to do with this project again, what would our course of action be? That's where I think we are. When the devs don't give us input, even when we are questioning their existence, I say they're done with us. Since we are the project, I say they're done with the project.

By all means, if I'm wrong, then let the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, The Toothfairy, or the Devs come in and explain why I'm wrong.

If we don't move on this, then this thread is just going to reach 15 pages, and we'll still be saying "Hellooooo, can one of the devs hear us?” At that point, we've only validated the opinion that the community is incapable of running itself, and that this project and all decisions to be made come exclusively from an iron curtained totalitarian oligarchy. If we mobilize, and say, "Fine, if you don't want to be involved in the decisions, then that doesn't prevent the decisions from being made", then they'll either choose to start communicating or drop out.

We have enthusiasm and excitement right now, if we drag this on without acting on it, that enthusiasm will die out and people will be cynical to the concept of anything changing, if this comes up again.

Like I said before:

Let's get this thing started. What other items need to be handled?

Dax

froglok23

09-03-2007, 12:06 AM

Ponint taken, good points made actually.

I was giving them a change to repsond to this thread, but as you have said, it has been 5 days.

I propose this. Lets move forward without them and get things rolling. They have had no input, feedback, comments, abusive posts, or suggestions on any of these issues which need adreessing.

I also propose that we need to take control of the site and get the passwords handed over. If not, its time for a new domain or something. We need people with access on baord to move the project forward :)

My comments were never ment to offend or piss on anyway, just differnt avenues :) but as you said, i also thinkg 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of our points are the same, id be worried if they where extactly 100% the same!

Opinions and suggestions are good things people!

-froglok

Kensh

09-03-2007, 12:58 AM

froglok23

09-03-2007, 01:01 AM

Exactly right, I’m someone who wants to help get this project moving again and full pace, As are the other members who are proposing positive ideas, suggestions and feedback

- froglok

LethalEncounter

09-03-2007, 01:37 AM

If you guys decide to fork the project I wish you luck. Not very many people know how much work is involved in running a project and keeping it moving forward. I just dont know if you will find enough development support for such a goal. In theory it sounds good, but in practice a fork usually hurts both the new and old project if the teams arent strong and cohesive.

kylekuschel

09-03-2007, 02:01 AM

Yeah. I have to agree with LE. If it gets axed now, I would bet money on EQemu falling apart.

froglok23

09-03-2007, 02:17 AM

Agreed, I dont think forking is the way to go,But what are other peoples suggestions? Im sure we can come up with something.

As dax said tho, In order to move forward wehave to seize control... get the catapults and knights ready! lol jk

But seriourly though, We will need to apoint new dev's... so who is up for it.. becomming a EQEmu Dev? :D

- froglok

oldlurker

09-03-2007, 02:20 AM

Don't you think that FNW and Doodman might have their reasons for being absent? Granted, their lack of communication might just be general burnout with the whole project but remember who did hold this project together in the last few years? Yes, their lack of communication is unsettling. But magine you where in their shoes, come back from a much needed vacation and see the boards in full uproar?
I was very exited to see work done for supporting the Anniversary Edition. It was my hope that FNW would update the tools so that we once again could collect data from the life servers.

I also propose that we need to take control of the site and get the passwords handed over. If not, its time for a new domain or something. We need people with access on baord to move the project forward
Why not demand them to hand over the whole server but keep paying the bills!? I think you are kidding!

Bottom line is that without an Login Server you can't make this happen. And we all know that we cant get the existing one.

Btw: Who would be 'we' in 'we need control'? There is an abundance of people with more or less ambitious ideas coming here but very few of them have the staying power to see it happen.

froglok23

09-03-2007, 02:28 AM

I would think that we would be a large group of community members, which would actually be made up of the existing ones also.
Obtaining the above stated information to new people who join their ranks would allow better communication and increased development.

I’m not saying cut them off or anything of the sort. Let’s just expand people who can have access to such systems (i.e. the source tree but NOT the login server source).

What do you then suggest oldlurker, I’m all ears. You’re a member of this community just as everyone else, your input is valued.

Once again, my statement was meant to convey that the people in the teams (or the team size themselves) who have access to such things as the site, and source code tree be increased.

- froglok

froglok23

09-03-2007, 02:30 AM

My ideas and suggestions may or may nto be the right line of thinking, but lets get thinking instead of picking holes in everythign suggested. If there is a reason why an idea is flawed, point it out and ifyou can, suggest another course we can take, instead of just slammign the door shut.

- froglok

techguy84

09-03-2007, 02:30 AM

Hmm, lots going on here. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut, maybe I shouldnt, but hey, lets see where this goes.

First off, spliting the project is a idea, but let someone come in with some hard data say who will be on the dev team of the new project. All those in favor of a split can say "I" all they want to, but little code changes here and there just dont amount to anything when your just going to be siphioning the code that the original dev team is putting out.

I propose that the forums Admins spark of a fork in the development thread for 3rd party development. Anyone with some code changes that just cant simply make it to the table of the emu's source can put thier changes here. Then, anyone want to add their own 3rd party patches can swing by, grab that code and put it into thier own servers. This will add varitey and advantage to the server population out there. Server X runs on standard source while Server A runs on modified patched source. If there is someway to make people aware of what changes you have in place readily, people can see and say "Hey, this one does so much more than X, im going there to enjoy my emulating expierences"

The principle idea is already in effect, it just applies to custom content other than a "Live Like" expiernce. Non-Legit, Semi-Legit, Legit-Classic ect...

This could be way better than forking something thats is at this age, with no hardcore solid dev team to back up the new fork.

A way to possibly keep the masses happy, keep things confined to this community, and to keep people informed is to take things that are out of your control and work around them. You cant have the LS code, no matter how bad you want it. Forking on the ML would look like a hooker in her Sunday's Finest, it just would look silly. Why not take the crew that does see a issue, that does have some power and work around it. Matt, Angelox, you guys have the power to make new boards right, if not, you have the power to sticky stuff where it can be seen by most people coming in. If so, sticky a topic for a 3rd Party development forum that is off site. That forum could server as a way for people to get thier code fixes and patches. These servers are 3rd Party, and in no way endorsed or supported here. If your on a modded server, and you have problems, dont come back to us, as the people that made the mods you used.

I feel like I am repeating myself here, but you guys get the point. Fork Bad, New Options other than Fork Good.

Hell, for those that are truly hardcore, passionate EQEmu lovers, why not spoon the project. That sure bound to make people happier.

froglok23

09-03-2007, 02:32 AM

Thanks techguy84 for your thought-out input :)

- froglok

boogerific

09-03-2007, 06:05 AM

I was giving them a change to repsond to this thread, but as you have said, it has been 5 days.

Real nice. 5 days in week leading into a major (U.S.) holiday weekend just before school starts. I think you guys need to calm down a bit. You need to ask yourselves:

Are you *really* prepared to "take over" AND pick up the tab on hosting fees, etc, out of your own pockets if necessary? Are you *really* prepared and willing to do whatever else is necessary to pull it off, possibly at the expense of spouse and family, no matter how much time, effort and money it takes? Are you prepared to do the equivalent of taking over a business that has no income?

It's not like putting in some overtime at work. There's not one iota of profit here to justify a possible major timesink. People start their own servers here time and again, only to find out that they really DON'T have all the time in the world to put into it and the server goes away. What you're proposing will take much more commitment than starting and maintaining a server.

froglok23

09-03-2007, 06:16 AM

Hmm, I was going to post a lengthy reply to your reply, but thought it best not to.

Let’s keep it on track and discuss ideas on how to get the project moving forward again and not criticising every suggestion made.

If you want, maybe even suggest something positive yourself?

- froglok

froglok23

09-03-2007, 06:18 AM

The amount of negativity here is truly just astonishing!

- froglok

boogerific

09-03-2007, 07:02 AM

The amount of negativity here is truly just astonishing!

- froglok

I'm not a negative person at all. I've just been around the block enough times that what I've been observing here is a lot of energy and talk (which is good, and I do respect people's thoughts and opinions) without seeing a lot of practicality/reality, so I finally decided to post. I would hate to see you guys go off half-cocked, unprepared for the cold, hard reality of it. :) Nothing was meant to derail, just to get you all to make sure you're thinking things through, thoroughly. When you make a business plan, make sure it's complete or the bank will turn you down every time. ;)

froglok23

09-03-2007, 07:11 AM

Hi Boogerific (lol)

Cool Coo, Sorry if I jumped the gun also. But yes, a lot of talk does not always mean a lot of effect.

TBH, I have NO IDEA what’s going on in the US as I’m half a world away: P

I’d love to get some input from you also; your head seems screwed on.

I wish to say again, I do not wish to cause any hard or ill feelings towards the current administration of staff, my intention is to get communication flowing again between the various teams / section.

Any comments, suggestions, (insert other words here), anything which can be a positive input (yes, even criticism constructed right, can be positive).

On that note, I am also willing to donate a fully hosted server towards EQEmu development, current it’s running windows as the host OS, but its powerful enough to run 4 or 5 VM's of any OS on it (with the exception of MacOS.. NFI about MacOS lol).

The most community feedback and input we get the better paths we can follow.

WE = the community (I should really state that more), INCLUDING the current staff / devs / admins of the project.

Another option is also, driving interest with EQ2Emu and EQEmu, I’m sure something can be worked out here to increase the dev team size and valid input from the community here: P

Thoughts / ideas always welcome :) (Be constructive and not destructive please). If you have a valid concern, please raise it.

Yes I’ve been very active with this thread, why? Well EQEmu means a lot to a lot of people, so let’s continue it as a strong and healthy project together!

- froglok

boogerific

09-03-2007, 10:49 AM

Unfortunately I'm a player, not a programmer or coder. I just have a lot of experience in business management and telecom from days gone by. I really don't have any experience in software-type projects or teams. :)

oldlurker

09-03-2007, 11:41 AM

So I am negative ... well, I think I can live with that. The gist of my posting was not to throw the baby out with the bathwater right now but wait till FNW and Doodman have a chance to answer.

How about stop derailing this thread and instead start doing some measurable work toward identifying and fixing this exploit?

John Adams

09-03-2007, 01:57 PM

Personally, I am in full agreement with getting the train back on it's tracks - fixing the existing problem, not scrapping it and starting all over. I feel the incredible amount of disrespect being shown the existing devs is what is astonishing. No, they do not sit at their terminals 12 hours a day pumping out code for EQEmulator. They are also not a team of 20 devs, but a fairly small handful of people who do this when "life" allows them time to do it.

This is not a professional dev team. The root problem here is not "where is FNW, Doodman, Rogean", etc. It's "Why is there no interest in other c++ savvy developers jumping on the bandwagon to help EQEmu?"

That answer is simple. There is no interest (by comparison to other EMUs) in EQ anymore. It is just too old, and anyone who ever played this game originally has to at least be in their early 20's now with no time to devote to this project, jobs + family + life = no gaming. Interest in EQEmu for most it seems is like wanting to go back to Sea World again to try and recapture some feelings of wonder and amazement when they were a kid.

Froggy, I am not trying to be negative, but realistic. But I cannot see how threatening to splinter the project, take over, push the old dudes out, and somehow expect there to be a platoon of fresh new devs to carry on their work is going to help. I see very few new dev types stepping up to simply start adding to the current functionality - only crying that the devs don't communicate.

Let me ask you this; If all you ever saw when you came to the community forum is "arrogant devs" "devs don't care" "devs don't talk" "replace them they suck" and an assortment of other insanely disrespectful outbursts from people who generally don't do shit but run their mouths, why would you want to communicate or help any longer?

If our mission here is to make this community more dev-friendly, meaning show some f__cking gratitude for the efforts made thus far, and try and help the existing team get back on track, I am all for it. But any movement towards splintering, branching, "forking", and I (as a community member) will be done here entirely.