George Bush won...

[Cisyouc]

as for the comment about war on terror, that's just a bullshit lie for oil and other industry. why do you think we shoved a puppet goverment into afganistan? oil pipeline. think we took iraq to feed oil to the suvs assraping the streets with giant metal cocks? no it's a gas station for the next target, not to mention we cockblocked china out of iraq. it's like moving a bishop or rook.

Sounds like an opinion formed from being liberal brainwashed.

[Baron Sprite]

Sounds like an opinion formed from being liberal brainwashed.

sounds like a plea attempt instead of a valid counter point.

please quote references of liberals stating china wanted a slice of iraq and we attacked to stop them from capturing the oil fields and expanding their global economic prowess through fuel consumption to produce goods.

please quote references of liberals stating iraq is a fueling point for further invasion.

then quote my quotes of their quotes thereby referencing as a liberal.

thanks

[route]

Actually Baron Sprite, before you stuff any more of your foot in your mouth, i was on the ground the morning the war started. So all your imaginary friends in the marines and those air force people living it up in kuwait really count for anything in terms of your war information.

It never ceases to amaze me how when you know you have no leg to stand on you just start swearing and saying the same tired things like "sit the fuck down". I mean really, do you think your opinion is so highly valued that if you tell someone to shut up they'll just do it? It seems more like some pathetic attempt by you to reenforce in your mind that whatever stupid ideas you're expounding at the moment have some merit. It's especially funny how you thought whatever certification you pretend to have would impress anyone. I know i'm impressed by 60 year old retired generals teaching vietnam tactics to people who have never served in the military.

And your inane assumptions about hiding things in the desert are as usual, completely backwards. It's actually very easy to hide in the desert. The fact that you think we have hundreds of people scouring the ground from the sky makes me wonder about those "certs".

For example, when we pulled up to karbala on april 2nd no one knew the medina division was dug in at the karbala gap. We found out the hard way when some apache's did a fly by and took a whole hell of a lot of fire. Maybe the hundreds of intel analysts just missed the last major city between our position and baghdad?

Not to mention the fact that no one even looked at fallujah until the end of june when 3rd ACR tried and failed to take the city. It was completely overlooked for 3 months, which is why it's turned out to be the insurgent stronghold it is today. Our massive satellite network must have missed that one too.

And the reason Saddam didn't nuke us, in case you didn't learn in your certification classes, is because he didn't plan on losing control of the country. There are hundreds of recovered documents detailing plans about how after we captured the cities, they'd begin their guerilla war, which they did, and after they drove us out saddam would regain control. If he used any of the weapons we knew he had he'd lose all world support. Maybe you missed the day they taught that in your advanced tactical theory class. Really makes one wonder what you actually do know.

[Baron Sprite]

yeah well your whole post pretty much just reassures me you're either 1 - clueless (probably), or 2 - ... well there really is no 2.

if you were even in iraq (doubtful), what are you? if you're MI you're just stupid cannon fodder and what is the fucking point of me talking to you? what was your CO yelling at you as you went in? every unit I've heard is that the weapons are hot and are set to go.

It never ceases to amaze me how when you know you have no leg to stand on you just start swearing and saying the same tired things like "sit the fuck down".

sit the fuck down. It never ceases to amaze me when someone tries to act intelligent on a fucking internet message board with their long thought out sentances that they probably read more than once and ran through a spell checker. you think I honestly give a shit about you at all? well fuck that would explain the MI part.

If he used any of the weapons we knew he had he'd lose all world support

I'm really sure he gave a flying fuck about the world's opinion after his capital got flashbombed and pretty much every divison available of the af that could be conjured out of some old white guy's asshole was either ready or going. if he was captured without blasting the shit out of anything he could he was going to either be executed or jailed for eternity. why the fuck would he care?

oh, and it's people like me that command people like you, I wouldn't be talking down on our certifications, especially figuring since you seem so in love with the war and your service, seems like my level of training did a great job. also, why are you here instead of out on the field? doesn't iraq have hidden wmds? why would you put yourself on the target?

how about for your next post you think outside the box and actually come up with an argument instead of regurgitating the same psuedo-intellectual defensive crap you have been all along. doesn't matter if you can form sentances if the content is hollow.

[m0oni9]

I have been interested in reasoning lately. This is not meant as a contribution to the argument. I am taking the liberty to consider some of it out of the context of this thread. Feel free to correct.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

yeah well your whole post pretty much just reassures me you're either 1 - clueless (probably), or 2 - ... well there really is no 2.

Ad hominem. Trying to paint the arguer as clueless to invalidate further argument.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

if you're MI you're just stupid cannon fodder and what is the fucking point of me talking to you?

Ad hominem. "You're MI, therefore your arguments have no merit." Also leaves room for excuse to evade further issues.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

It never ceases to amaze me when someone tries to act intelligent on a fucking internet message board with their long thought out sentances that they probably read more than once and ran through a spell checker.

Non sequitur. "You have thought-out sentences, therefore you are trying to act intelligent."

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

you think I honestly give a shit about you at all? well fuck that would explain the MI part.

Ad hominem, non sequitur. "You think I give a shit about you, therefore you are an MI, and there is no point in talking to you."

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

I'm really sure he gave a flying fuck about the world's opinion after his capital got flashbombed

This paragraph appeared to try to argue a point.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

oh, and it's people like me that command people like you,

Ad hominem.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

I wouldn't be talking down on our certifications, especially figuring since you seem so in love with the war and your service, seems like my level of training did a great job.

Ad hominem, straw man, non sequitur. "You are in love with the war and with service, therefore you cannot talk down our certifications." I am not sure what premise the "my level of training did a great job" proposition follows from.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

also, why are you here instead of out on the field?

Evading the issue.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

how about for your next post you think outside the box and actually come up with an argument instead of regurgitating the same psuedo-intellectual defensive crap you have been all along.

Straw man. Attempts to change appearance of argument by insisting that one did not exist.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

doesn't matter if you can form sentances if the content is hollow.

Where did that argument come from? Why is being able to form sentences a bad thing? Is typing out poor sentences a set up to provide future proof that a writer was not "too involved" in a post? As an aside, I think this is the first time I have really realized the use of words like "shit" and "fuck" to have the intent of strengthening one argument, and/or weakening another.

[route]

Baron this time when i was reading what you typed i was actually laughing, and few attacks on me personally cause me to laugh.

It really looks like you copied and pasted half of what i typed and just reinserted it into your post like no one would notice you were basically responding to everything i said by repeating what i said.

Again i'm going to call your "certs" into question here because if you know much about MI you know they're not cannon fodder, the military spends too much money training them to put them in any kind of danger.

References to AF (air force i'm assuming) 'divisions'? There are no air force divisions, they've got a completely different organizational structure from the army or marines. The capital that was seized wasn't nearly all the money he had available. The main palace in baghdad, now known as camp victory, had a banquet table with roughly 600 million usd stacked on it. There were also numerous trucks seized by a LRS detachment near mosul carrying millions more in gold bars.

"Your level of training"? What level? You're a random person on the internet that days ago was talking about how everyone messed up and now you're trying to take credit?

As for why i'm still here and not there, i don't know if the thought occured to you, but when units deploy they dont stay there permanently. We've got this thing called a "rotation" where by units move in, do their mission, get replaced by other units and go home. And if you're really concerned about me being here, my battalion is actually slated to leave some time just after thanksgiving. So rest assured, even while you're on the internet talking out your ass about things you don't understand, real men and women are taking care of business.

I could probably write a book about all the stupid things you've said in the last few days but m0oni already handled the actual dissection of your flawed arguments so I'll just end here. Hope to hear from you real soon.

Love, route

p.s. when i'm typing i'm already sitting down so you can stop typing "sit the fuck down".

[Daeath]

Route: Army?

Sounds like it, caught a whiff of cynicalness towards the air-conditioned/cable tv watching Airmen in Kuwait... don't think too harshly of us, not our fault we don't have to march under the heat of the Iraqi sun! But like football: there may be a defense team, an offense team, and a special team but at the end of the day we're all striving for that Superbowl ring.

Regarding Baron's level of military knowledge/experience, well - it ranks at about the same level of his English mastery. I didn't know that the fine institutions of South Park offered a minor in Advanced Military Tactical Intelligence with the more well-known major of Professional English Explicative Communications...

Who better to understand the war in Iraq than those who actually fight it, either marching thru the streets of Fallujah or the intel analyst supporting them? Look at the volumes of erroneous history books written not by the actual soldier/commander, but by self-proclaimed 'certified experts' whose only exposure to war was a raise in oil prices and in nightly updates from a short-sided left-wing/right-wing media.

I can say that there have been some great posts in this particular forum from all sides of public opinion. Isn't this country great or what? Yes, there are a growing number of 'Asshats' but there are still a great many people who are genuine and care more about the needs of others than the needs of themselves. Look at this emulator: how many countless hours have people spent making this a better product at no reward to themselves (other then knowing that there are people enjoying their talents)?

Being in the military, I am directly exposed to many self-less individuals. Here's a quote for Cisyouc: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." I consider you all (even Baron who makes me laugh) my friends. I don't mean just the 'Jesus-lovers', but there are many people of all races/sexes/wealth(or lack of)/education(or lack of) that still care about the common good of all people.

I care about the people of America. I care for the people of Iraq. I may not like some of the things people do, but I care about my fellow man. Who cares what the reasons are/were for war in Iraq/Afghanistan? Is the end result better off for the people of the world? I believe so.

An interesting fact I just learned about the nukes we dropped in Japan: in an instant 130K people, men/women/children, were dead - most civilian. However, at that time Japan had run out of proper resources to carry on war against the 'Allied' nations. Like someone posting earlier about the Emperor and the desperate Japanese, civilians would rather rush into the battlefield with pitchforks (due to the lack of bullets) and die then let the Coalition forces occupy their homeland. Should the war have been allowed to continue millions, both Allied and Axis, would have perished. The cost of Nagasaki’s and Hiroshima's lives saved millions others - including the more than 150K POW's the Japanese held captive and treated rather inhumanely. I think that's a great example of a wartime 'end justified the means' (speaking about using nukes).

This war, the people who fought in it, the President/Senate/Advisors/Commanders who led it - all benefited humanity in the end. War is never pretty, that's what makes it war. It should never be flaunted, overused, or abused - and I don't think OEF or OIF is. America isn't perfect, its President never was nor will be - but in the end we have helped to make the world a better place, just like many other countries too.

[Baron Sprite]

again everybody always just tries to post critical comments on my posts, try to come up with an original argument this is just getting boring. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with colourful words moon and router.

AF == Armed Forces - divisions - army navy airforce, ect.

It really looks like you copied and pasted half of what i typed and just reinserted it into your post like no one would notice you were basically responding to everything i said by repeating what i said.

really, because I was thinking the same thing about you and moon and pretty much everybody else that replies to me, you just copy and paste the same crap or copy and paste my crap with some lame attempt to analyze a post I throw down on a message board at like 5 am.


I really don't have much else to add to this, I'm seriously running out of ideas, I type this shit whenever I have a 3-5 minute break in my day for argument sake and there really aren't many points left to argue.

"m0oni9": yeah... just critiziing my post, atleast try to be original like route and post some fucking facts mixed in there

also: you totally failed in showing any of my quotes as a liberal -> quote <-.

now:

Baron Sprite wrote:
yeah well your whole post pretty much just reassures me you're either 1 - clueless (probably), or 2 - ... well there really is no 2.

Ad hominem. Trying to paint the arguer as clueless to invalidate further argument.

Ad hominem. Trying to paint the arguer as clueless to invalidate further argument.

Baron Sprite wrote:
if you're MI you're just stupid cannon fodder and what is the fucking point of me talking to you?

Ad hominem. "You're MI, therefore your arguments have no merit." Also leaves room for excuse to evade further issues.

Ad hominem. Trying to paint the arguer as clueless to invalidate further argument.

Baron Sprite wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me when someone tries to act intelligent on a fucking internet message board with their long thought out sentances that they probably read more than once and ran through a spell checker.

Non sequitur. "You have thought-out sentences, therefore you are trying to act intelligent."

Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam.

Baron Sprite wrote:
you think I honestly give a shit about you at all? well fuck that would explain the MI part.

Ad hominem, non sequitur. "You think I give a shit about you, therefore you are an MI, and there is no point in talking to you."

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

Baron Sprite wrote:
I'm really sure he gave a flying fuck about the world's opinion after his capital got flashbombed

This paragraph appeared to try to argue a point.

Ad hominem. Trying to paint the arguer as clueless to invalidate further argument.

Baron Sprite wrote:
oh, and it's people like me that command people like you,

Ad hominem.

Ad Hominem Abusive

Baron Sprite wrote:
I wouldn't be talking down on our certifications, especially figuring since you seem so in love with the war and your service, seems like my level of training did a great job.

Ad hominem, straw man, non sequitur. "You are in love with the war and with service, therefore you cannot talk down our certifications." I am not sure what premise the "my level of training did a great job" proposition follows from.

Begging the Question

Baron Sprite wrote:
also, why are you here instead of out on the field?

Evading the issue.

Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam,Straw Man.

Baron Sprite wrote:
how about for your next post you think outside the box and actually come up with an argument instead of regurgitating the same psuedo-intellectual defensive crap you have been all along.

Straw man. Attempts to change appearance of argument by insisting that one did not exist.

Straw Man, Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam, Ad hominem, Ad Hominem Circumstantial, Poisoning the Well.


seems like this is turning into a circle jerk of my dad can beat up your dad instead of a discussion. you might as well just keep ad hominem copy and pasted moon since that's all you're going to be posting about anything I present.

atleast Daeath is even admitting to a degree that all this shit is pointless, even though I am compelled to throw a wtfad hominem at him about his comment on my english mastery, atleast he managed to make a joke out of it.

[Daeath]

Wow, never thought I'd live to see the day that Baron Sprite would throw a positive remark my way! <sniff>

That signature Baron: isn't that the Necromancer's buisness card from the Venture Bros.? Suprised someone caught that....

[Baron Sprite]

ya, this is the original, couldn't find a close enough font so just used some random one, was too lazy to look for more then 5 minutes for a matching one, I'll get around to it some day.

[m0oni9]

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with colourful words moon and router.

Oh the pain!

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

"m0oni9": yeah... just critiziing my post, atleast try to be original like route and post some fucking facts mixed in there

That is why I said it was not meant as a contribution to the argument. Nice job calling me on that one.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

seems like this is turning into a circle jerk of my dad can beat up your dad instead of a discussion.

You might want to read my preface. I put it there for a reason.

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

you might as well just keep ad hominem copy and pasted moon since that's all you're going to be posting about anything I present.

If you insist.

You did a pretty good job pointing out your fallacies. I am impressed. But is it my fault that the majority of your arguments here involve ad hominem attacks? Perhaps I should start typing random words to give a little variety.

[Baron Sprite]

actually they were of your comments of my comments, don't know if you caught that or if you were thinking I was agreeing on them.

I didn't see your preface because it blended in with the posted date, either way though I argue to argue, if it was directed to me or not.

But is it my fault that the majority of your arguments here involve ad hominem attacks?

no it's not your fault, but that's pretty much what an argument is, don't know if your text book has covered that yet.

oh yay@me 700 posts

[shanxi]

Wow. What a flavorful thread. You know it was only a matter of time before I chimed in here =)

First off, I gotta say, even though I had to sift thru all the asses, shits, cocks, farts, fucks,and any other derogatory term, I would say that baron sprite is my type of guy/gal! And I dont mean this in any negative way. I was reading thru all the posts, and from what i gatheres, Baron seems to know their shit tactics-wise and military theory.

I just thought I would throw my views in here, hopefully I wont get flamed from the sidelines hehe

Personally, I could give a shit about left or right sides. Any gov't official that is worth 2 shits would get assassinated, its a fact. 3 presidents that I can think of that did something GOOD for the general welfare of the US? *cough* lincoln, kennedy, reagan.

I simply didnt vote this year because I knew it wouldnt make a difference. *shrug* My dad voted for kerry just because he wanted to try someone other than bush, and my mom voted bush, because she felt that "he had balls to stand up for our country"

I could call out my mom, stating that if kerry was pres at the time, he would have gone to war as well, you cant just sit idly by when you need someone to blame.

I was in the USAF at the time when all this shit came to be, as a matter of fact I was on a smoke break in Tyndall, AFB, Fla when the first plane hit the first tower. Snack bar SP (a joke) came up to us and said the pentagon was just bombed. Man that felt like a dream. Next thing you know I was ushered into a nearby hangar and all hell seemed to break loose, being on the east coast we started sending our training jets out on eastcoast sorties.

Shit died down and I eventually got stationed in Kadena AB, Japan. Regular work schedule, til we started seeing russian helecopters and C-5s come rumbling thru. We knew something was picking up and ppl on the base started talking amongst ourselves, but I dont think any of us expected a war in IRAQ.

Next thing you know, around october or november I think, it was my squadron's turn to be deployed to saudi. What a joy that was. Fuckin 2 months later im on 16 hour shifts, sleeping in a tent city. (USAF had it pretty good in UAE, we actually had 2-to-a-dorm living conditions on PSAB (saudi air base) till the army, marines, russians, brits, french arrived, then it was crowded as hell.

Actually Baron Sprite, before you stuff any more of your foot in your mouth, i was on the ground the morning the war started. So all your imaginary friends in the marines and those air force people living it up in kuwait really count for anything in terms of your war information.

I am not denying your involvement, but I was on the ground too, not that I was anywhere near harms way, but I am 75% sure that there were no USAF folks in kuwait unless they were C-130 transport pilots or whatever. We were centralized in Prince Saudi AirBase and some of us were deployed to the Intel division at Qatar.

I think tho, that the argument between Baron and route lies in beleifs vs. experiences.

Baron knows their shit and expresses with passion, but tactical theory doesnt always work in the field.. why? because we have morons in the military that cant/dont choose to follow what should be done.

Here is an interesting comparison if you want a giggle.

GWBush as commander in cheif vs. Sun Tsu's guidelines in The Art of War.

**strictly speculation**
I do beleive there is an undermining element of corruption behind the war in Iraq, yes. We had no reason to be there. I was there, yes, and I do beleive that saudis are nice people as far as whom I met, and I even met Iraqi refugees, but if you think I give 2 shits enough to travel 1/2 way round the world to save their asses on my own accord youre dead wrong. I think that those who beleive strongly in their convictions should lead their own fuckin crusade, not send folks like me (and all the other army,marines that are coming back in flag draped caskets FOR NOTHING)

Now I am getting a little heartfelt..blegh

Global war on terrorism imo is a front. Give the american as well as the world public something to keep their eyes on as the gov'ts hands are deep in the lower/middle classes pockets.
9/11 - we got suckerpunched
9/12+ - embarrassed and shocked, we had to show the rest of the world "we aint fuckin around"
- Bush ADMINISTRATION seizes this opportunity to score some bucks and outline their great plan
- We bomb afghanistan, flashing how big our penis really is.
- We make a new bomb, MOAB, (Military Viagra) to bomb the already bombed into submission afghanis who still dont know what the fuck is going on
- Seeing as how bombing rubble over and over gets redundant, Bush decides to "exact revenge" for his father's attempted assassination (and its nice how Iraq has oil we can use too)
- Confident that this war on iraq would be quick and precise due to our huge penis, the bush administration allows what should have NEVER been allowed in the first place... "THE WORLD'S FIRST FULLY TELEVISED WAR" [when the rest of my military buddies and I heard this on AFN, we all agreed THAT was a prime fuckup right there. War is dirty, you dont want ppl who arent trained for this shit to see this shit.]
- It seemed everyone was anticipating a quick war. lol. I think the universal theory was that.. if the kuwait/iraq ground war lasted 7 days in 1991, then it should last around 4 in 2002 with all our "precision weapons" (big penis)
- with everyone focused on the war effort and WMD, bush turned his artillery on the people of the US of A. WTF I cant get a job as it is with NAFTA so what the hell, lets sign CAFTA as well. Now, the Bush ADMINISTRATIONs supporters, aka big business, can make more money because the business restrictions were lifted, allowing them not only to move to mexico (NAFTA) but CENTRAL AMERICA (CAFTA) as well. All this is doing is hurting the little people aka lower/middle class. Of course, we wouldnt vote on this stuff, but whoa re we to vote on it? 90% of bills in congress dont even get read before they are voted on and signed.

"haha. Do you realize most of the bills that get passed dont even get voted on? Most of the time what happens is they write up a bill and put it in sometime during the night, and they get signed right off the bat in the morning. If we actually read and voted on every bill that was written, the process would be slowed down, considerably"

-so while most of the world is focused on our smokescreen of a war, high society is finding more ways to make money.

It is not all Bush's fault, however. Look at him, obviously he is a puppet =) He reads what the "elites" tell him to, and has no clue what to say when put on the spot.

So the title of the thread is about bush being elected again. Hmm. I think we are fucked if we do, fucked if we dont. If you dont have money, you dont have a say.

My conclusion? I need to move to Holland =)

Edit- I also wanted to add that I wasnt disagreeing with route either, I agree with BOTH posters =) Hooah in the first degree.

A debate is a debate, but dont make it personal

[Baron Sprite]

wow someone actually made an actual neutral post that was informative while providing an argument without any flames to anyone in the thread. pretty much agree with all points, I should sit the fuck down.

I do disagree on the holland part, japan is the shit. well I'm not sure on kadena, never been to okinawa, only honshu and kyushu islands, but I've been to about 85% of the cities on both and loved every one. I'm all about moving to kobe or osaka if they decided to have cheney for pres with bush as vice in 08 to mix things up a notch.

that and the only dutch I know is herberg.

[eq_addict_08]

woot shanxi!!!!