Hacker

[cavedude]

I'm glad to see this thread has triggered a civil pissing match. It is a good thing, I think.

Angelox, I am a bit hurt about some of the things you said. EQEmu is my first priority, with database/quest development being next. I've often been prone to taking the less wise path in an effort to keep both projects moving, whether I look bad in the process or not. But, I know you and know you don't hold any malice towards anybody who doesn't deserve it so I am going to chalk this up as a miscommunication and call it done with.

Back on to topic about the devels...

I have worked with a few of them pretty closely and I do want to say some of the flames toward them is a bit unfair.

KLS - Grab the full changelog and do a search for KLS. That about sums it up. Other than answering development posts KLS keeps themself pretty quiet on forums and such. I have no problem with that at all, and don't see why others do. The work gets done and it's quality.

Wildcard - Again, look through the changelog. Add that to the fact that he is a key member of PEQ. In addition to coding, he does database work, event scripting, helps me with misc chores that we find ourselves needing, and handles some of the GM work that I don't particularly care for. He has a full plate that's for sure.

FNW - In the modern day of EQEmu he kept this project going, Atlas style. I still remember back in the day his MASSIVE changes to the changelog. Getting new code from him almost felt like Christmas. In the past 2 months, he corrected a few severe memory leaks that I know were brutal on Grand Creation and I am certain effected other servers as well. I think he and Doodman do more behind the scenes than anybody knows, or gives them credit for. I found with PEQ that running a project isn't just about getting the actual development work done, there are tons of other things on your plate that require attending to, or else there won't be a project left to develop for. I think it should also be noted that when EQEmu was losing its hosting, FNW told me if he had to, he would host the site and login on his PERSONAL box and bandwidth.

Doodman - I haven't spoken with him much, but I have to admit I haven't ever tried, either. I know like FNW, he does a ton behind the scenes much, much more than he is given credit for. On a personal note, there was a time recently when Wild and I were bomboarding with him questions mostly dealing with packet collection and collecting spawn opcodes so we can try to get eqextractor working with eqbuilder again, and he was more than friendly and helpful to provide us the information we needed.

Rogean - I know less about him than any other, I admit but his recent HoTT implementation as well as fix for a certain form of exploit was well received by me. His work seems to be quality, so that's all the counts for me.

Now, I don't know the specifics of how it works so I'm now expert, but I do know that all code that is put into CVS is quality controlled to prevent bogus and/or incompatible code from getting into the repo. I know there have been a few times developers had to rewrite certain pieces of code because while they worked and worked well, they didn't meet the quality EQEmu has tried to maintain in recently time. I think that may be one of the reasons why code from the forums doesn't make it into the CVS often. Here is the next issue I have seen... lack of free time. Developers don't have the time to find a piece of code on the forums, analyze it, then either approve it, or hand it back saying this, that, and this need to be changed because of that guy over there. Finally, submit the approved code to SVN which winds it's way to the CVS, and eventually to the nightly builds.

What I feel EQEmu needs to correct this situation is a sort of Forum Developer. Somebody who will act as a lisaon between the coders on the forums, and the developers with CVS access. They would need to be a good developer, and have a very solid grasp on the EQEmu code. They could find the code on the forums, diff it if it isn't already, find immediate mistakes with it and either correct it themselves, or give it back to the author. Then, pass the mostly polished code up to whoever. If they deny it, the liason would then send the code back to the author and either let them know what's wrong, or have them contact the CVS developer directly. Of course I have no power to make this a reality, it's just an idea really. I think instead of fighting back and forth, that's what we need to do come up with ideas and put them into motion.

[Sakrateri]

So.......Anyone seen the Wild Hogs movie?? .........Funny shit

[sfisque]

back to the primary point.

what is the poop on this exploit and the possible patch that may or may not exist.

== sfisque

[TheLieka]

Originally Posted by cavedude

What I feel EQEmu needs to correct this situation is a sort of Forum Developer. Somebody who will act as a lisaon between the coders on the forums, and the developers with CVS access. They would need to be a good developer, and have a very solid grasp on the EQEmu code. They could find the code on the forums, diff it if it isn't already, find immediate mistakes with it and either correct it themselves, or give it back to the author. Then, pass the mostly polished code up to whoever. If they deny it, the liason would then send the code back to the author and either let them know what's wrong, or have them contact the CVS developer directly. Of course I have no power to make this a reality, it's just an idea really. I think instead of fighting back and forth, that's what we need to do come up with ideas and put them into motion.

Originally Posted by TheLieka

Maybe this project shouldn't be too far beyond the structure of a typical office environment in that aspect? Is there someone technical and familiar enough with the project that the devs wouldn't mind keeping in the loop, that could act as a liason to the community?

I agree completely.

[Richardo]

viva la Dark Horizons! -We had working bards for pete sakes! Where's our credits????

The liaison use to be me, however there is zero communication coming from anyone in the development team.

The idea worked very well for a long time, I am not sure whats going on with the dev team, they dont respond to e-mails, PM's and never seem to be on IRC (idle but not responsive).

This started months ago and continues today, I cant get answers, help, anything at all.

This is the state of the emulator, the devs separated themselves, weither due to them spending less time on eqemu, moved onto other things, who knows.


I have an in box full of questions, comments, demands, and complaints from the community, and i cant answer a single question because of this.

[TheLieka]

If that's the case, and the devs refuse to talk to anyone, including their community liason, then what are our options?

Honestly, the ball is in their court. I'm sure the devs are, and have been, reading this thread and quietly hoping that it will go away. This is the point when someone normally swoops in, locks the thread and tells everyone that if they EVER hear any negative feedback again, they will ban everyone in the community and unplug the server (or whatever).

I'm hoping that this time will be different. It appears that there's a pretty unified feeling here that something needs a change. I think that the community would be excited to see more transparency with this project, and by cutting off communication (most likely due to busy schedules and other engagements), the community only sees that things appear to have become stagnant and shitty.

The motivation for the devs to come out and make a move is this: You guys are busting your asses for this project, but the community doesn't see it. You get this feeling that no one gives a shit about how much time or effort that you put into the project, and no one seems to truly appreciate the asset that is our current dev team. The problem is, even if you spend 24/7/365 on ONLY this project, the community still wouldn't understand. That's because the community doesn't realize how much work goes into one of those little lines in the changelog, but then again how could you expect them to? It's not your job to make them understand that, and when you try to, you'll just end up more tired and pissed off than you started (and the community will likely still not understand). That's why you guys NEED a liaison/project manager/public relations person (we'll call it a liaison for the sake of discussion)

If you, the dev team, decided to make your move, by first asking each other if any of you wants out. This is a GPL project, there's no reason for anyone to feel trapped in it. Next, decide that you are going to make a change, and start talking to MattMeck, or hell, if you guys hate him, pick someone else (sorry Matt, nothing against you at all. ), but find yourself a liaison that you can trust and work with. Come clean with any dirty little secrets that you guys have been keeping (I'm not implying that there are any, but the first step to transparency (and an overall happy project) is to make sure that everyone feels like they can be open and honest). Again, this is a GPL project, not an arms race. After that, I'd suggest working with your liaison (just for the sake of this discussion let's call him MattMeck), to get the community actively involved and excited, and pick out some new devs from the community, or like Angelox said, start calling everyone devs. It's not like you're going to lose your green jacket for bringing someone else into the club. Hell, maybe you could run some contests for finding and fixing bugs, or Hawaiian shirt Friday, it doesn't matter, just something that will be a change from the whole "I am the god of Mt. SourceForge, and I don't answer to anyone" image of you guys that the community has developed. No one appreciates or respects that. What people appreciate and respect is human beings who are open, honest, inclusive, yes, even fallible.

There are a million and one ways that this thing could go, but if you choose (and yes, the power is completely within your hands) to go with what's listed above, I will personally claim responsibility if anything goes wrong (because I've used it at least 15 times in my professional career, and it's worked through every single situation).

Discuss.

Dax

[tcsmyworld]

Gotta love people who come on and claim to have put all the work into a project, totally ignoring or intentionally disregarding/downplaying the efforts of others that had the same responsability for several years prior, and DID make the sacrifices of running the project on home boxes/bandwidth.
But that doesn't count for anything, so long as the people who have control today are recognized, no matter how spread out they make themselves(must be good for everything) ,all must be good.
It's a good idea, I guess, in the eyes of the few who are in control to piss off the players and run off as many old-school contributors as possible, leaving them to take all the credit.
Contributors such as myself, who have been members, contributors for many years, but now I'm informed that I had nothing to do with anything, so I guess the years I wasted here were for absolutely nothing, something to think about when putting in your time and money to this whole thing.

[Memener]

Hey tcs! as I was reading and I started think about you and Im glad you replyed to this.. your one of the key players of this project(Project Everquest founder) I think! If it wasn't for you, I think thier wouldn't be any movement in the database or as good as it is today!!! I also see that no one said anything about Hoogie.

In my eyes I see a project thats "open source" if you have fix for a "BIG" problem you should post it or show a work around, other wise you should brag or say I knew that was going to happen.(just think if MS did that) .. Everyone in this team is good at something so we should be a TEAM and fix the mess called EqEmu. I would love to see more advance-ment in this project.

[gernblan]

Originally Posted by mattmeck

The liaison use to be me, however there is zero communication coming from anyone in the development team.

The idea worked very well for a long time, I am not sure whats going on with the dev team, they dont respond to e-mails, PM's and never seem to be on IRC (idle but not responsive).

This started months ago and continues today, I cant get answers, help, anything at all.

This is the state of the emulator, the devs separated themselves, weither due to them spending less time on eqemu, moved onto other things, who knows.


I have an in box full of questions, comments, demands, and complaints from the community, and i cant answer a single question because of this.

Then, like I said already in this thread, maybe a fork is needed.

If the people in charge are THAT unreachable, then someone else needs to step up who is. Or they need to step down, or defer, or do SOMETHING to connect the developers again.

Hey, at least this thread has exposed something that people have been wondering for awhile now.

Maybe NOW we can all discuss a way to fix this.

Remember, this is about the CODE. Everyone, please drop the finger pointing crap. Please. Let's all come together and solve this problem. This emulator is TOO GOOD to die.

[devn00b]

Originally Posted by Memener

Hey tcs! as I was reading and I started think about you and Im glad you replyed to this.. your one of the key players of this project(Project Everquest founder) I think! If it wasn't for you, I think thier wouldn't be any movement in the database or as good as it is today!!! I also see that no one said anything about Hoogie.

In my eyes I see a project thats "open source" if you have fix for a "BIG" problem you should post it or show a work around, other wise you should brag or say I knew that was going to happen.(just think if MS did that) .. Everyone in this team is good at something so we should be a TEAM and fix the mess called EqEmu. I would love to see more advance-ment in this project.

Again how was I supposed to post somthing when my ip was banned from here, and irc? I dont have the patch files anymore as it was many moons ago, and when i left the project I deleted everything except my database.

[Richardo]

Why don't you guys just create your own LS, most recent code and (your favorite database) and start your own eqemu project if you're worried about the progress. Hell, i'm sure Mattmeck wouldn't object to creating a new section to the eqemu forums for all of you "contributors that want to upkeep eqemu" to start the build on a more sucessful eqemu. I mean, you don't have to create your own LS either.. Just work on a successor to the current builds, together. That is the reason of opensource, right?

[TheLieka]

Originally Posted by Richardo

Why don't you guys just create your own LS, most recent code and (your favorite database) and start your own eqemu project if you're worried about the progress. Hell, i'm sure Mattmeck wouldn't object to creating a new section to the eqemu forums for all of you "contributors that want to upkeep eqemu" to start the build on a more sucessful eqemu. I mean, you don't have to create your own LS either.. Just work on a successor to the current builds, together. That is the reason of opensource, right?

I'd prefer to see an attempt at reconciling the current communication issues before someone jumps the gun and forks the project. I don't think it will help anyone to split EQEmu into distinctive factions. All it would take is reopening these closed communication channels to get things back on track, but again, it's up to the devs to step in here and post their thoughts.

[sfisque]

Originally Posted by devn00b

Again how was I supposed to post somthing when my ip was banned from here, and irc? I dont have the patch files anymore as it was many moons ago, and when i left the project I deleted everything except my database.

fair enough, but if you have "knowledge", aka, you know where the problem is.. e.g. its in the zone server, when a player object has its inventory injected, etc., then a pointer with a quick blurb would be cool. knowledge isnt as good as a concrete patch file, but its worth more than nothing, if its communicated, know what i mean?

== sfisque

[moydock]

I think the devs have just been doing this a long time and, understandably don't want to give it a lot of attention anymore. Which is probably compounded by the guilt of not working on it often which makes them want to work on it less. I'd think they'd want someone active to step up and lead the project and let them work on it when they get excited about it again. However, it's probably pretty difficult to find a qualified person. Although at this point someone half-decent would be better than what we have now.
Either way, KLS has been doing some good updates. As long as we aren't going 3-months without updates I'm not going to freak out.