Gameplay Design Stuff

exdruid · #1 12-10-2002, 12:07 AM

Most of these are just rehashed ideas from my old HQ posts. Please join in and/or argue the points. I'm using 1-50 just as a reference point (I quit before Kunark) but these apply globally. Where the statements are incorrect, please post a correction.

* Wizards: They deal damage, and it should be the highest amount of DD in the game. This fails at higher levels due to resists. Sony has also seen fit to only increase the damage 500 points during the same levels that mob damage/hp/resist/etc has grown exponentially. IMO, from levels one through whatever, Wizards should simply be cannons. No 100% spell immunities, no maximum damage hate from resists, and (here's where everyone will disagree) no group evacs.

* Druid/Shaman/Necro/etc: Obviously remove the DOT penalty. Thats a 'play longer, pay more' measure that was put in, and it doesn't apply on free servers.

* Exp penalties for race/class/etc: Once again, obvious. Balance out the starting points and special abilities or just leave it alone.

* Adjustments to risk vs reward: No more 'gravy' mobs. It should either have loot (or a chance thereof) or xp that makes it worth killing. If not, then it should serve some other purpose, ie death beetles/quest mobs/etc.

* Boats and travel in general: While teleporters are a good stopgap measure, once boats are working they should definitely be used. Travel (and the zones you travel through) is an important factor in the game. Only once people have reached the 30s, and can travel from city to city virtually without risk, should time-saving travel spells and/or items be available. The fact that you may start the game far apart from any but a handful of players only serves to enhance the feeling of danger. Because you'll need to rely on these same people to survive for quite a few levels, the community aspect is greater as well.

That's it for me, fire away...

Aragain · #2 12-10-2002, 01:38 AM

The way i see it, taking away group evacs from Wizards, and taking away DOTs from Druids, would make more sense in the name of gameplay, and some balancing.

Wizards should be cannons, and they should be the best cannons. Where magicians give up most of their fire power for pets, Wizards get offensive DD spells that no one else could begin to master.

They also get familars, a little something to make them a bit more powerful, and safer at times, if you take away their ability to evac, then maybe you can balance it out by making Wizards incredibly powerful in other areas, like DD spells.

Now the reason to take away Druid's DOTs, is becuase in history, druids were the worshippers, the followers, the believers. They didn't spread curses, they prayed to their gods in hope of a better rain season. A shaman and a necro however...

Now taking away druid's DOTs, I think druids would get more "nature bound" spells. Think about it, druids, wizards of nature right, why are they spreading disease to kill life? That makes no sense, however much you may hate it.

If you were to take away the Druids ability to DOT, then you focus on a much more druidic way of gameplay. Make every spell they have, in some way, make them commune with nature. Which is pretty much what SOE did for druids, but bottom line is, they can still kite without DOTs, they can still teleport without DOTs, and by god they arent shamans or necros.

I think they took out most race/class penalties. Though I think SOME should be put in, based on the usefullness and power of some characters throughout their lives, and at their final point in the EQ universe.

Thing is, you dont want everyone to have all of their slots filled with level 65's a month after you open your legit server. So just maybe some restrictions should apply.

On no more gravy mobs, I agree completely. Back in beta things used to drop everything they carried. Including armor. I dont see why this is such a bad idea. Whey they took out, probobly to supress the EQ world much more.

But when you think about it, if your killing a guard for exp, theres only so much loot you can pick up before you cant pick up anymore. Aside from that, where are you going to sell it? No where near that you killed the guards thats for sure. Most guards are also away from newbie areas, or where you would kill them for exp are. And if someone wants to take part in ripping the spare armor from one of their city guards dead body, so be it, though its sad there isnt a penalty from that.

I think what made EQ REALLY unique, and REALLY fun. Was that first boat ride across the ocean. Not sure what to expect, not even sure what the city called, just some Port on Anartica, i used to call it. Honestly, in my earlier days, it did get routine to do, but, it was still fun. I still loved the aspect of actually travelling, not going through some portal, or taking some magic train. I got up on my own two feet, and made way across the ocean.

Only problem was, no captain, no bartender, and no first mate to bother. Probably becuase if you can look at the inside of the boat, the thing is HUGE, the boat was something left in the past, they basically forgot about it, to make way for TPs and TLs, and that made EQ no different from AC really.

Bottom line, what was once a land of lore, adventure, and the unknown, became a land of farm, loot, and a planned level 1 through 50 system, where you always knew where you would go, and always knew what to do if things went wrong. Well, how similar to life is that? How similar to fantasy is that?

Just my worthless 2 cp

exdruid · #3 12-10-2002, 08:10 AM

Good points!

On wizards: Exactly. Take away evacs (not slow ports, just evacs) and give them their primary ability of DD back at levels >16.

On druids: Actually, Shamans and Necros spread disease. Druids utilize fungus and insects. That's beside the point, though. Druids level 29+ can DD kite more efficiently than they can DoT kite. Is those levels from 14-29 when you're just a third-rate cleric/mage that show the need for kiting. There's a few hundred ways to think of this as a plot point, but suffice to say kiting is about the only useful thing druids can do at those levels. At 29 you get your evac/ports and then become very useful to a group again. Your levelling is never broken by being useless because you had kiting to fall back on. There are no balance concerns because everyone is still useful in a group.

On boats: It's a technical limitation of the system that would make captain and crew a buggy group of NPCs at best. Aside from the potential of such huge zones, the oceans of the world provide a sort of calm contrast to the dungeon you're about to venture into. Yes, they're annoying to wait for, but they're completely needed.

On guard kiting: Faction adjustments can be used to make this an option or remove it. Once they're no longer 'gravy' mobs, who wants to bother kiting one?

hydrocyanic · #4 12-10-2002, 09:38 AM

class penalties are removed all at once long time ago
racial penalty still exist anyhow, heres the rate:
-20% for troll, iksar for regen, slam, swim, ac bonus, stats
-10% for ogre for frontal stun immunity(though spell cast still hit) and major stat bonus
-5% for barbarian for their slam with 2h
everyone else are at 0%
+5% for halfings for no reason

the bonus should* be on human which VI misplaced on the asslings and never change back

here is my suggestions on changes on classes, might get long, not sure yet : )
move cheal up lvl say.. 49?
wiz:
give wiz more dd power post 50, the fast casts(draught) are in line with ONLY IC which is 49.. give them a draught line which do more dmg(around 800) for the same efficiency at 51 and give them all the elemental dmg at once please, makes no sense when i have to wait 4lvl to get mr draught(of jiva) and give them a higher dmg(1k+) to replace IC for around 53/4, don't mind removing the evac, just keep the ports?
familiars are in line IMO...
druid:
removing the dots are good ideas however this might need to give them a power up dd
lower the lvl of sup heal and give them 1 or 2 more powerful heal, a single hit heal, leave the HoT for shm and clerics
druid should have their ports remove though, just keep their single gates
shm:
give them power up heals and lower supheal too
dots are fine and slows are fine, slow fix should be on the mobs, not the class, which discuss later on
give them an upgrade of torpor which heals around 1800 and a upgrade of it at higher lvl, lower the torpor as well as the 1200 w/out penalty heal
dots should have much more efficiency compare to the dd though, and give them a power up of them too?
cleric:
i am quite bias on them about their melee power at the moment, their lvl60's dps is higher than a 50 paly with a SINGLE spell... this is bs...
give them a 4k straight heal? as a paly myself i hate them somehow for their change from the devs.. but give them some powerful heals from lvl 1 to 65 should be good, pre 50 is abit off other than the cheal, move cheal to 49 or 50+ and give them a better heal than shm/dru is a must
ok, maybe remove Cheal all together, remove war's def disc too
nec:
give them more powerful dot please, as they are the bringer of death, i don't play one so i have no clue about them
paly:
give them upgrade on VoM, heals are fine, give them yaulp5 and 6 maybe 7, make yaulp as a paly unique skill, since paly use yaulp since lvl 9 which cleric never use them before the ^&*%^(*& hammer change...
alter the yaulp's stats bonus post y4
maybe make their heal more efficience? i dono how sk get their tap at the same rate at lvl60 as paly as their heals before that are way worse in comparison
give paly a aego or something.. its annoying to cast each buff again and again
lower their buffs line, reso at 60 is BS...
give them back thunder of karanas, just dont block mob's proc effects, which was the main reason why it was over power
sk:
i have no clue
rng:
i have no clue either
bst:
there is a class as bst?
rog:
i dono what would make them happy...
war:
remove def disc and balance all the mobs all together? as well as cheal maybe, the current EQ is build based on cheal and def disc, and now CC
as long as all the melee's dps/def abilities are balance they are fine i guess, give war a higher taunt factor on each "taunt" click and their proc, say.. 30percent more than other class and can be increased to 70percent or more with aa/foci/weapon proc?
enc:
CC, charm, mana regen, etc
maybe give them a charm which doesn't last long(30secish) and a mez attempt after the charm? which give them a dps machine for abit and them a life saver? lower their post 60 pet's dps and give them the ability to charm another mob as pet? hey, they are chanters and their aren't supposed to be like any other
mag:
maybe give them a ability to summon a burn out pet on top of their normal pet for a short moment for their mana? or control a elemental mob for a short moment? like.. dictate elemental?
or summon a bomb elemental pet that does an ae dd after a few hit?
bard:
never really tried bard, maybe up their song's power since their spells last very short? give them more weapon that mod all their skills like epic at higher end with better ratio/stats, i don't really see bards w/ epic change their epics even when they pass the lvl of VT
monk:
i truly think the lower of monk's abilit to tank is BS, its all b/c of VI's laziness on removing or chaning some high end items' ac(barb leg, leggings of FS, wurm hides, many other all/all item) up the ac of kael/SS/thurg/pog armors(slightly) and make those all all items except monk and balance them up, they should have lower ac than tanks anyhow, but give them a higher avoidance check
their weapon ratio should always be better than other classes, 17 19 w/150dd is good, but not enough compare to melees getting 16 19 100tap
make them 18 19 at least 18 19 in comparison
mobs:
make mobs' hp and dps to adjust the change in lackof def disc and cheal?
i am not good at math
ports:
keep the book and add some npc that do similar jobs? emu servers will be lack of players most of the time anyways

my suggestions of legit servers:
make them all 60 in the starts with certain points they can trade in for their no drop armors, after that you will have to get them yourself?
lvling from 1 again is quite... boring for some of the people(includes me) who played to 60+ and now on emu and they get to play newb again...
dkp on item can be according to AL's ones, i found them quite inline with each other, give the group much more exp bonus and leave alone the soloers(AC or AO has 200percent of group bonus, eq, 20%?....) and widen the lvl of blues post 60 b/c we don't have as high populations compare to VI's EQ. make drops more common or if possible have a gm to assign drops on boss mobs sometimes? make the counters 1group or 2group raid?
maybe give each class some unique skills?
add some more aa abilities?
remake disc or remove them, most are useless, other than TS and a few

myself is a 63paly(retired) in a family(low end) guild in EQ i give up EQ cuz i don't have time to do anymore exp grinds for endless hours and raid for 8hours a day, its a game, make it fun, not boring/dull
i also play a monk/wiz/past 50, i have been playing eq since oct/99 i think

oh, few more things, make the city raidable, remove those 150 hitter guard that con green
of course there are people who like to play from lvl1(/shrug) or we can make the game starts at 50 or something, but lvl from 1 again is quite.. boring and the post 50game is where the game starts to get less messy and more balanced which i think a good start to play
i will add some more if i think of any

Syntaks · #5 12-10-2002, 10:00 AM

Interesting perspective on Druids.

Alot of our most potent poisons come from plants and animals. Mother nature can be just as ruthless as a necromancer... Posion DOTs should be kept in for them..

hydrocyanic · #6 12-10-2002, 10:18 AM

i think the most toxic thing isn't come from plant now.. but good point
yeah, druid's dot is quite reasonable, as they can't just concentrate on dd and heal and a few utilities, that will be just a wiz/cleric combo
ahh well, i changed my mind on druid : )
but i don't think giving them poison dot though, they never have them
all they get is mr and fr dots : )

killspree · #7 12-10-2002, 10:34 AM

If by DoT penalty, you mean lower damage per tick when the NPC is moving, I believe that was taken out of EQlive recently.

hydrocyanic · #8 12-10-2002, 10:43 AM

let me give some back ground info on dot penalty then? heh
it was set to 66% of the DoT long time ago(dr00ds) where kiting everything they see and it doesn't fit brad's vision so they nerf it cuz they say it doesn't fit the RvR(risk vs. reward)
some time ago the penalty is taken away

exdruid · #9 12-10-2002, 02:51 PM

killspree: That is what I was referring to, yes. I wasn't aware that it was taken out. The damage had been done, though. I'm glad future druids won't have to suffer that 14-29 hell. Although boosting the power of the NK guards certainly sucked for 24-27...

To step more into the vague, overall sense of balance...

My view on balance (in a group, where it matters) revolves around the following:

1. In a group consisting of one melee, one priest, and one pure caster, ANY non-duplicate class should be desirable. Duplicate classes should be a worthy 2nd choice. Basically while you might not want two of a class, you certainly shouldn't be passing on multiple classes because their abilities are already covered.

2. In the progression from levels 1-X, a sense of balance should exist for what classes would be valuable in a group. In the generic group mentioned above, the 4th group member could be anything and still be useful. Obviously certain mobs demand a more specialist party, but general hunting should remain open to every class. The ONE exception to this is where a player can solo effectively, in which case it is still balanced until level X.

3. No item should ever replace a group member or make grouping less desirable. This includes twinking caused by not having level limits on items.

4. Death should be equally painful for all classes. This obviously follows the idea of uniform xp levels. It also means the allowing of any class to bind anywhere.

5. Every class should have something unique to offer a group.

6. Soloing does not apply negatively to balance. The ability to solo effectively should only exist when the ability to group effectively is low, and vice versa.

Slayer02 · #10 12-10-2002, 03:55 PM

Ok this is what needs to be done
Cleric: Now a warrior, wtf? Needs nerfing, cheal toned down a bit with slight recast increase
Ranger: bows need to become BETTER, higher nukes, better hp/ac spells, and better roots, slightly more hp base
Rogue: Eh, pickpocket sucks for rest of group, but their ok, make the poison creation skills actually useful
Warrior: Whats wrong with warriors? Def disc = uber, nerf it, increase cool-down
Monk: Monks are pretty good, they should get a slight damage increase though and (probably not possible) take less damage from DSes, thats lame in PvP because monks = speed, so DS owns them
Necromancers: OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG, INCREASE DoTs, majorly, it takes 2 minutes for what a wizard can do in 25 seconds, decrease time it takes to do damage with DoT and increase the damage they do, increase the taps, increase mana to hp ratio for the lich forms OR make them compatible with clarity BUT decrease the mana to hp ratio
Shaman: SLIGHTLY Increase healing power and HP/AC buffing power
Druid: Nerf DoTs, increase DD power and healing power, also increase resist buff power (Makes them more wanted in groups, also give them a better regen)
Shadow Knight: Pets, better pets, maybe just a slight level increase on pets or increase there chance to hit the mob, increase chance for darkness to land, we also need some new DoTs
Paladin: Needs new heal spells, and increase buff line (Seriously, reso sucks at 60, give them Heroic Bond at like 60, and aego at 65) make summoned hammer actually useful
Mage: Eh, Increase dd power VERY SLIGHTLY
Wizard: Remove evac increase dd power decrease cast time
Enchanter: Increase DDs and make a single-target long lasting stun spell, for soloing (Trust me, hard to solo as chanter)
Beast Lord: Oh yes, nerf pets, nerf dds, nerf slow spells (Im sorry they made this class WAY too good, there pets can become better than mage pets!!!) Also add a few skills like Dragon Punch for them, DON'T give them Flying Kick (Unless its at like level 50 or so and there is a skill cap of like 125 for it)

Pneu · #11 12-11-2002, 09:30 AM

My thoughts on your post:

WIZARDS: In EQLive the highest amount of damage by class is very situational, sometimes wizards rule, sometimes they dont. What they can do is delivery obsene damage very fast. From a gameplay point of view the spells have not progressed in the same way melee equipment has, AA abilities have changes this somewhat, but this basic flaw remains in EQLive. It is a flaw, world builders should be aiming to avoid it.

For the most enjoyment I feel that wizard spells should be resistable, Sony have just gotten wise to using these 5 different resists and exagerating their effect, this should have been done a long time ago - and to a much greater effect - spiders catch fire, Ixiblat Fer can't (on account of being a fire elemental).

EXP PENALTIES: These where removed in EQLive. I see no reason to introduce them in EqEmu. No particular race/class is more powerful in my opinion, it is entirely situational.

GRAVY MOBS: This is very much down to what you as a world builder seek to achieve, personaly I am going for a high role-play content so I am making a mostly quest based server, mobs will never be the primary meens for gaining xp on my own server, because I am a role-player at heart.

TRAVEL: Port spells and travel limitations should definately NOT be removed from emulated servers. EqEmu servers will never enjoy massive server population so bridging the travel gap between players especially in those early days - is essential.

EQ is a social game. Whilst world builders might well be able to create excellent zones built entirely for travelling through during a quest, the bridges between starting locations should be nullified - Luclin's Nexxus and PoP's Plains of Knowledge & Valor are prime examples of the importance of mustering locations.

Pneu

Pneu · #12 12-11-2002, 09:40 AM

Oh on the cleric melee issue, my main EQLive character is a 58 cleric and my primary meens of xp'ing is solo melee'ing (I have a botted 55 chanter that makes this possible) - I am one of the few clerics who actually carry a half decent haste item!

It is my opinion that the cleric summoned hammer is a very bad addition to the game, however Clerics definately did need a melee improvement. There is every justification for my character melee'ing the way I do in the role-playing sense - EQ is unique in RP games in that Clerics don't traditionaly melee.

I believe the melee tweek should have been double attack and/or level damage bonus (would have to try it and see to balance which).

One of the key things I hate about the summoned hammer is that I was very proud of my weapon collection which included a Petrified Rod (39/44). I was widely known for my melee damage (A cleric hitting for over 150!). The summoned hammer made us all look the same, which seemed a bit of a waste to me, it standardised a weapon slot throughout the class, therefor loosing some of our individuality.

Pneu

hydrocyanic · #13 12-11-2002, 02:11 PM

better bow? what are you takling about?
take away TS then you can have better bow if you want better buffs, etc etc
rangers are one of the most balance class in game atm

cheal and def disc breaks the game worse than anything
take away the damned hammer, if you give cleric melee its like a paladin
you see nec melee? druids? why cleric can melee then?
this game doesn't recom. solo anyways, hammer + Y5/6 makes the cleric melee so good it get close to the low end paly at 60(with epic/SSarmors)
who uses yaulp the most? cleric or paly? its funny that VI doesn't even give yaulp upgrade after Y4 for paladin, do they even play the game?...
ok...
sorry, heh that hammer get on my nerd

akuyen · #14 12-25-2002, 12:07 AM

something people aren't getting is that druid dots are some of their closest nature based spells.

the magic dots are them calling forth thousands of stinging and biting insects and compelling them to attack a target.

the fire dots are them connecting with the sweltering heat of the deserts (Ro) and surrounding the target with it.

these spells are very much inline with a person who communes with nature and uses nature's most potent weapons against Her foes.

exdruid · #15 12-27-2002, 10:21 AM

Since this has popped up again, here's a few other points:

Clerics: It's never been an issue whether or not clerics COULD melee, it's just an issue of how efficient it is. If you're a cleric you are a healer. Sitting on your posterior medding is just more efficient than jumping into battle. You're contributing more to the group dynamic. The same arguement has been made by druids who seem to believe they're hybrids instead of casters. If you're a caster, regardless of which type, the melee characters depend on your spells. They also depend on you not drawing extra agro by trying to be some sort of hybrid.

Roleplaying: This should be left to individuals and special servers. Justifying imbalance by calling it roleplaying just makes the gameplay worse.