Regarding the public eqemu project and development

[cooter]

Like many people on this board I've been coding my own eqemu server for quite a while. The majority of time I spend working on it, I'm fixing bugs in the code... stuff that simply doesn't work as it should: bugs that cause people to crash, or incorrect variables in packets (creating goofy situations in the client), or possible player exploits, etc. For a server where someone wants to just log on and get their jollies #zoning to Plane of Time and death touching all the gods, these bugs are no big deal, but to make a good, legitimate server, they need to be fixed, and the process can be quite annoying considering so many other people have probably fixed the exact same bug yet not submitted the code.

Why don't people submit their code? I can only speak for myself in this situation. Some servers out there have a huge amount of bug fixes in place. I'm talking about servers that you log on and you say "wait, do these people use the same emulator I do?" Take for example Guildwars, or even better, Winter's Roar. The admins of these servers are also developers of the emulator. Now, please, don't take this the wrong way -- I have nothing against Wiz or image or their servers (I'm just using them as examples) -- but why aren't these code fixes making it to the public project?

I don't expect to see perfect-Sony-copy databases or custom content/code up for download, but come on -- I do expect silly bugs like kicks and backstabs not even checking range, or environment damage permanently knocking you unconcious and not killing you, to be fixed. Why shouldn't I hog my code fixes to myself if everyone else -- even the developers of the project -- do the same thing? This "here's some wood, build your own damn house" mentality is not only horribly inefficient in terms of time usage for all the programmers working on the project (dev or not), but it also creates a paradigm where nobody wants to submit their code because nobody else does.

It seems to me that the only people who are jumping to submit code are Junior Developers, and if you ask me, it seems like the whole JD system was created simply because nobody submits their code so now they would actually have some kind of reason to do so. "Sweet, if I read a 'C++ for Dummies' guide and spend 35 seconds coding a fix for one of these retarded bugs, I get a title and everyone will respect me!" I respect the JD coders for actually trying to help but the whole JD system is lame.

A forum title isn't enough to get me to submit my fixes. And I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way. If the developers lead the community in submitting fixes for the good of the public project and not just hog them for their own projects, I'm sure others would follow suit. I would.

I posted this to be constructive but feel free to flame away or ban me or what ever.

[KhaN]

I think this make now a loooooong moment now im speaking about this "problem" with some devs, aka sucky eqemu public relations, aka cooperation between the devs, and the REAL users, the servers ops. I was speaking about this with Draupner yesterday, and it "look like" devs are speaking about it.

I honestly find totally dumb how eqemu project is generally managed, i mean, EQEmu i think, is a very good project, but NOTHING is organised, ok,i own a company and i know devs/programmers arent organised persons, but well, i have never see this before. My idea and i dont say its the best solution, it has to be speak a lot, there should be a "second level" in the forum, for server ops/teams, where they should be able to speak with the devs, i dont speak about a support forum, but more like a forum with advanced tutorial, where servers ops share their "minor" code fix while devs concentrate on major bug fixes, where the devs could explain some project orientation. Im sure all the devs here would like to have specified conversation with peoples that could understand them, not only "Hi 1017 error problem, thx".

EQEmu is nice, but i remember one time wiz or windcatcher (cant remember guys sorry), speaking about super servers, it is totally right, frst step would be to help peoples to start one. Lets take an example, look at ForEverQuest sever run by meeble, look like quite interesting, and im sure she would have tons of questions, and would like to have access to a place where should could find those informations, where she could directly speak with some devs or other servers owner, lets say it, EQEmu Darwin law is, if you dont have a server team member in your dev staff, your server will die soon, dont say im wrong, all here know its true.

More generally, EQEmu problem is a communication one, the latest example of bad eqemu communication was Melwin, i mean, yes, there were a job to do, but was it done in the smart way ? I think not, just ask who like melwin, a few~ Anyway, im just speaking and i know no one will care, or if they care it will be done in the wrong way, actually, the only thing that link me to EQEmu is the login server, maybe not for long *shrug*.
Well i wont bother to explain more what im sure draupner posted, but i would just add one thing, dont make it like #developers, it wont work, oh, and fire the one who screwed the basic idea of #developers, thx~

[RangerDown]

I've seen people submit quite a bit of code in the EQEmu Development and Bug Fixes/Feature Requests section. Problem is, it looks like only a handful of those fixes ever make it into the CVS. I've posted two code fixes onto that section in the past, and never received even an acknowledgment from a member of the dev team, and it didn't make it into the CVS either.

Got a code fix? How do you send it? A .diff file? Post on the board, or PM a dev? And if PM, which one?

Maybe people HAVE submitted code in the past, only to get frustrated at sending it into a black hole.

[RangerDown]

Well after re-reading the Jr Devs sticky in the other forum, I'll answer my own question...

It looks like you should post code snippets to the forums and essentially apply for a JrDev position. I suppose the Jr. Devs code is taken pretty seriously and is more likely to be merged into the CVS.

Make sure to put all your code snippets on the new forum as well as reading the sticky there.
Devs will merge your code for you and help you out (doesn't mean they will teach you to program).

I disagree with your assertion that the Jr Dev program is "lame". It's a quality control check to make sure that peeps who will be submitting code changes basically know what the heck they're doing. If, as you assume, people are applying for Jr Dev just for status, then they're doing it for the wrong reasons. If you (and I mean "you" as in the general audience, not Cooter or KhaN) are one of those people applying for that reason, please do the project a favor and don't apply. I couldn't care less about a title, all 5 of my butts glowing at once, or a % on IRC, but I'll gladly apply for Jr. Dev if that means that my contributions stand a chance of being put out there for the public to benefit from. Cooter, you might wanna consider doing the same as well.

[Melwin]

Originally Posted by KhaN

More generally, EQEmu problem is a communication one, the latest example of bad eqemu communication was Melwin, i mean, yes, there were a job to do, but was it done in the smart way ? I think not, just ask who like melwin, a few~ Anyway, im just speaking and i know no one will care, or if they care it will be done in the wrong way, actually, the only thing that link me to EQEmu is the login server, maybe not for long *shrug*.

If I wanted to be liked I would have been a politician.

But you seem highly educated on this. Pray tell, genius, how do you enforce rules that people obviously don't want to follow without the use of force?

Enforcing rules is not a matter of being liked. You don't go "aw thanks for that speeding ticket mr. officer can i hug you" when you get a ticket for speeding.


Apart from the little personal attack I agree with you, to some degree.

[KhaN]

But you seem highly educated on this. Pray tell, genius, how do you enforce rules that people obviously don't want to follow without the use of force?

Enforcing rules is not a matter of being liked. You don't go "aw thanks for that speeding ticket mr. officer can i hug you" when you get a ticket for speeding.

Like i said, a job was needed (mod the forum) and you done it.

Apart from the little personal attack I agree with you, to some degree.

In my head, it wasnt meant to be a personnal attack, sorry if my english make it looked like a personnal attack.

I will finish by saying, personnally, i have nothing against you, its just a divergence of opinion on how to do things

[Charmy]

I will be the first to say, my skills as a programmer are not in anyway "l33t" just ask khan i have been working on the same damn error in our patcher for the past week. But i will say that i agree with khan and cooter in that the public -> Dev communication is terrible, i admit that indeed alot of questions out there should be ignored, but at the same time alot of them should be looked at, and more than often answered by devs. Not becuase they are the only ones out there who would be able to find a fix, but becuase they more often than none have a fix for it.
Now i understand that server fixes that are present on WR will often not make it into the CVS becuase wiz i am sure is proud of his server, and he also uses an older version of the code which would be difficult to pick and choose what fixes should be added.

Just look at quite a few of the people with Developer Status, alot of them have under 100 posts, and still some even have under 50 posts. What it was that got them dev status, i am guessing it is the fact that out of the 50 posts they have made 49 of them were all page after page of code fixes, which i bow to you for. but should a developer always hide int he dark behind his walls of code? Personally i believe a dev should have to get up and talk with the public, answer the questions that are perhaps "new" not the ones the post about somthing as common as "My EQClient has crashed, why?". But questions about recent code fixes the dev(s) made, and how they changed the server.

Now i know that not all the devs don't talk in just code, infact quite a few of them are very fun to talk to. Wiz, Bush, BS, image, and devnoob before he left.

As for the JD program, i agree that alot of people probably posted for the title, my question is, why are they not just Devs? they have proven they have the ability to program, they know what the hell they are doing, so why not just make them Devs?

And finally reguarding the arrival of the Pig Farmer. There are some things i appricate about it, and some things i think are just plain stupid. I admit the form needed some revamping, but giving out Titles like "I need to flame to feel self-worth" well, i just don't see a need for it, maybe i have no sense of humor, and i am sure i will earn some gay ass title for posting about this, if i might request "The Annoying Jew" would be nice.

Or him making "put down" comments about other servers not only on the formus but in our irc channel as well. and before you ask where, i will remind you of the fact you assumed KhaN had warezed out his copies of 3dmax and maya, which although i am sure no one cares, does make us look bad to people who don't think warez is legit, becuase well.. it isn't. or when we were suggesting about things in our irc channel you popped in listened and made comments about how dumb an idea it was, and how you didn't think it would make any change to the game.
But that doesn't mean i don't like some of his work, he spends alot of time monitoring the boards, and... changing them, and...
Well not all the stuff he does it bad, just.. alot of it people don't really like.

I have no end to this, so i take a small bow. ~George Carlin.

[Melwin]

Originally Posted by Charmy

And finally reguarding the arrival of the Pig Farmer. There are some things i appricate about it, and some things i think are just plain stupid. I admit the form needed some revamping, but giving out Titles like "I need to flame to feel self-worth" well, i just don't see a need for it, maybe i have no sense of humor, and i am sure i will earn some gay ass title for posting about this, if i might request "The Annoying Jew" would be nice.

Yeah thanks, that's very nice except for that fact that I didn't set that title. Good job though, A++ would read again.

Before you assume that the FORUM ENFORCER (the guy who is supposed to enforce the rules) is abusing his power, you might want to get your facts straight. I don't abuse shit, period.

Originally Posted by Charmy

Or him making "put down" comments about other servers not only on the formus but in our irc channel as well. and before you ask where, i will remind you of the fact you assumed KhaN had warezed out his copies of 3dmax and maya, which although i am sure no one cares, does make us look bad to people who don't think warez is legit, becuase well.. it isn't. or when we were suggesting about things in our irc channel you popped in listened and made comments about how dumb an idea it was, and how you didn't think it would make any change to the game.
But that doesn't mean i don't like some of his work, he spends alot of time monitoring the boards, and... changing them, and...
Well not all the stuff he does it bad, just.. alot of it people don't really like.

So wait.

My being a forum admin somehow binds me to not commenting on servers? Wait, what? It's not even like I was being rude or anything, I was just giving some input. Gee golly, it just happens to be that I think zoning mobs will make about dick difference in the game, but since I have status on the forums, I'm suddenly not allowed to say so? It's not like I limit myself to negative comments on "other servers." Ask Wiz how positive I am on WR sometime.

As far as the rest of it goes, I'm sorry about assuming that KhaN warezed the programs, but 95% of people who have either Maya or 3DSMax got it off Kazaa or BitTorrent, heh.

[sotonin]

I admit the form needed some revamping, but giving out Titles like "I need to flame to feel self-worth" well, i just don't see a need for it

Thanks charmy, Turns out that was Wiz, not Melwin that did that. But yes. it was pointless and shows his immaturity.

[govtcheeze]

I couldn't care less about a title, all 5 of my butts glowing at once, or a % on IRC, but I'll gladly apply for Jr. Dev if that means that my contributions stand a chance of being put out there for the public to benefit from.

Well said, RD.

This needs to be stickied, highlighted, and PMed to everyone on the project. To me, eqemu isn't about making my e-penis bigger, how many people play server X, or titles. Its about sharing the time you spend on a hobby so that others may enjoy your hard work, and build on top of it. I find it offensive some people make great additions to their project, but purposfully keep it to themselves so they have unique "come play me server, it has X Y AND Z lolz keke!!!11!!" sold as features.

What would have happened if Scorpious(sp!) had kept his AA changes to himself? TCS kept his DB to himself? The original devs kept the src to themself?

For the general population of admins, you are able to build something great only because people before you shared. Keep the circle going so everyone can benefit. Please.

[Wiz]

I have shared a lot of code. But the Winter's Roar source is nearly all my own code nowadays. My own AI system, my own core processes, etc. It can't possibly be integrated into the EQemu source without an extreme amount of work, work that I simply have no time to do.

Why I don't release my entire source? Because, quite simply, the project EQemu is opensource, but the project WR is not. I don't want someone implementing my unique ideas that are not related to fixing the game such as styles, our custom database, our custom item props, our custom AAs, and so on.

When it comes to code like functioning AAs, AI fixes or rewrites, the two code bases are just too different. WR NPCs share maybe 2% of their code with the CVS counterparts.

[Wiz]

Originally Posted by sotonin

Thanks charmy, Turns out that was Wiz, not Melwin that did that. But yes. it was pointless and shows his immaturity.

As opposed to slinging out dedagratory comments on people's social lives based on what they do in an online game?

You're so hypocritical it's just funny.

I've never gotten married in EQ or cried over an RP, I doubt I ever will, but I don't presume to go derailing other people's interests and try to claim some kind of social superiority because of what I do for personal entertainment. Learn to live and let live and not to feed your ego by attacking people.

[sotonin]

It's easy enough to lock a thread that's getting out of hand. But no you opted to take the immature and pointless road and change my title.

/claps for Wiz

*if everybody got their title changed for a single post where they posted something stupid, uncalled for or out of place every one of us would have one.

I can't expect you to know what i've contributed to the project and why I don't deserve this title, because you obviously only have time for WR code these days. Which is fine, i'm sure WR is a great server, but when you spend all your time on it, should you really be peeking your head in here and making judgments such as randomly changing titles and such.

[Wiz]

Originally Posted by sotonin

It's easy enough to lock a thread that's getting out of hand. But no you opted to take the immature and pointless road and change my title.

/claps for Wiz

*if everybody got their title changed for a single post where they posted something stupid, uncalled for or out of place every one of us would have one.

I can't expect you to know what i've contributed to the project and why I don't deserve this title, because you obviously only have time for WR code these days. Which is fine, i'm sure WR is a great server, but when you spend all your time on it, should you really be peeking your head in here and making judgments such as randomly changing titles and such.

What on earth does your contributions have to do with being an immature prick? :

I've written a shitload of code for the CVS - Line of Sight, multiple skills, the entire grid system, several AI revisions, a bundle of the bazaar framework - and a lot more. So if you want to talk about past contributions, go ahead. The assertion that because I don't code especially often for the CVS has me out of touch with the forums is hilarious, btw.

You didn't just make one post uncalled for, it was about two pages where you consistently trolled people for their habits in an online game. It wasn't excusable with a simple "I did something dumb". And in response to being called on it, all you did was scream and rant about how much you've done for the project and how immature it was to change your title.

[sotonin]

Every response of mine in that thread was in direct response to a question from another person, i wasn't *trolling* as you put it.

And no i do not think anything but that single edited comment was uncalled for. Sorry you seem to think so.