The dream of Classic EQ - and why it doesn't work.

[Wiz]

Lately, and in fact, throughout the entire history of EQemulator, I've seen servers pop up that strive to make the classic EQ, the EQ of Vox and Nagafen, the EQ of Short Swords of Ykesha and Flowing Black Silk Sashes, the EQ where a resurrection was about as common as an honest politician. These servers never truly stick around, never truly make it, despite all the people who seem to want nothing more than such a server. In this post, I will try to explain why.

Wanting to go back to EQClassic is a nice dream. But, it is a dream. Like the crack addicts we are often compared to, MMORPG players share one thing in common - we all long back for the thrill of our very first shot.

The experience where everything was new, where danger was around the corner, where you didn't have a handy little backspace map or a spoiler site to tell you what would happen if you killed that evil alligator and retrieved the troll's arm. (BTW, that quest sucked so much. 5 hours work for a piece of rawhide)

But you can't experience the feeling of something new by recreating something old. You won't be getting lost in Neriak, because every merchant is nicely marked out on that map of yours. You won't be getting killed by hill giants, because they will be hardfarmed for cash. You won't stare up in wonder at the Aviak City, because you've seen it all before. And aviak_rook07 really isn't that much more interesting on Tom's EQ Classic than they are in the ghost town of South Karana on live.

Additionally, there is the matter of experience gain and high end incentive. If you really wanted to recreate the original EQlive, you would have to recreate the ardous process of gaining experience, the frequent and penalizing deaths, the bleak corpse runs, the lack of comfortable clicky transporation. And as a server admin, trust me - if players don't get the comforts they are used to after years of noobification in the cuddle-land of Sony's EQ, they will bitch and moan. And the server admin will either give in, or find his server deserted, as people realize how not so incredibly fun it is to spend 12 hours soloing from 10-12 in Northern Desert of Ro, reliving content that has been experienced, chewed down, spat out and dissected to fine pieces by ten spoiler sites. Compared to the first shot, it seems as appealing as a Happy Meal to a Nobel Dinner. And you don't even get a plastic toy.

The server admin who realizes this and increases the experience gain of his server, throws in a few whistles and bells, maybe a PoK, or even Plane of Time (I saw a rather absurd server idea that wanted to be EQlive Classic... except with Plane of Time too. GG tanking Quarm in crafted), will soon find his server full of really bored high levels. They'll go wack Vox (who the server admin must have tweaked down, since gathering a raid 30 players isn't feasible on most servers), they'll kill Nagafen, they'll give the Vox hammer to a pet, they'll go mess around in Plane of Fear.

And then what?

There's no dungeons to explore they can't just read fifty-page essays on instead, detailing out the exact drops, spawn chances, and sexual lives of every NPC in the dungeon. There's no real useful factions to build up. There's no epic quests to do. There's no real reason to start another character, since it'll blow to 50 in no time with the increased experience gain. And at this point, the server admin finds himself with two choices. He can watch the playerbase shrink and drop, or he can bring an entirely new carrot to the playing board. A few more levels, maybe, or a few new places to raid, maybe even Epic quests.

Enter Kunark.

This has been a drawn out post, but I'll close with a simple statement. EQ Classic was wonderful, it was thrilling, it was the childhood of 3D MMORPGs, full of innocence and wonder and myth. But we've grown up. Spoiler sites dissect the myths, tear the illusion down, reveal the man behind the curtain. Trying to remain a child forever is futile. And so is trying to recreate EQ Classic. Make new content. Make a new game. Try to remake the feeling of wonder and exploration. But it can't be done by reviving the pale spectre of the past.

[Mongrel]

/applause

[RexChaos]

It's not just EQ CLassic. EQ as a whole is just not thrilling to me any more. I thought it would be great to build my own world and quests etc. In reality, it's all still the same game really. I thought coming to play EQEmu and setting up a server was going to be that "good old days" feeling like when I started playing EQ. I was wrong. Wiz makes a good point. I totally agree, but to me it goes beyond even EQ Classic.

[Jezebell]

Very well said Wiz. This is so unfortunately true, which is why custom servers are the way to go.

[BurningDead]

almost shed a tear thier very touching and true

[Sakrateri]

Damn you !! dont mess with my reality like that , damnit it IS real I tell you ............crap here come the Fayguards gotta go .....

[Charmy]

Very Well Said Wiz, and i totally agree, I remember my first eq char was a DE wiz and i remember the first 10 plat i got i thought i was rich =(. lol i still have that newbie longing when i hear the merchant music... but as you said nothing is like that first high you get when you strike down your first skeleton, or when you get your first crit hit/blast, you thought you were the shit, and well maybe you were <shrug>. And really people don't want to start over with nothing, its like inventing a new product that makes you millions of dollars, who is going to want to return to the days in college when you had to buy the 10 for $1 Ramen noodles that you ate 3 times a day.

And with that comes the same problem with custom servers. No one wants to play on a server where they have to start out naked again, fighting lvl 10 mobs and dieing, having to do CR's that most likely get you killed again in the process. Alot of the semi-legit servers are fun in this becuase they supply you with a way to get some newbie gear for free, or maybe a whole test gear set up, which is on one of the LoTR servers i sadly don't remember what one =(, but it was fun.

So whats their solution? Everyone asks to be a GM, Trust me to anyone out there who wants to be a GM becuase either you can't run yoru own server, or you are to lazy to do it, asking on a server and saying you can pop mobs really well doesn't really cut it for more Server Admins. and even more so if they do give you GM status you will soon find that it isn't anything like you imagined, i know when i first became a guide on EQlive i was expecting to get tons of respect from people, getting all the cool guide gear, and showing off by hosting cool events.... but.. fact is, it sucks, all you do is listen to people bitch and moan about shit they are making up about lost gear, you have to give shift reports on every peition you answer, and you aren't even allowed to fight mobs, plus the event list they give you is SOOOOOOO damn boring, that you never want to do them. So all in all, stop asking.. If your really thinking of being a GM on another server than my advice would be to learn a programming language that would be of use to them, otherwise your going to be bored as hell.

Got a bit off topic there sorry, All in all, its sad but true, we all loved the first time we were able to purchase our first full set of spells, but after that it was no longer a challenge you had to meet, but a burden you had to carry every few levels. I Think wiz says it the best, an eqclassic server just can't be done and still retain its fun factor.

(The PoTime in an eqclassic server that is funny. Sounds like the thing I remember hearing about someone wanting to include PoHate, PoSky, and PoFear into plannar progression, as an EQlive mirrior... hmm)

[terorist]

i miss the ec tunnel where i got my wizzy to 200 int ( back when 200 was the cap) at lvl 30 and i was the absoulte shit. and when i had to stare at my spellbook from lvl 4-30 i think it was. /tear i miss the nk and nro music too :(

[Melwin2]

Well said.

EQ was good, but only in the sense that we didn't know better.

[sate]

Very well written Wiz! I can only say that i agree with you 100%.

[bbum]

theres alot of incorrect things being said here, ill try to sort thruogh tthem.

-some people think prekunark was better because we were newbs.. and wiz thinks the point of a classic server is to 'get lost in neriak' and be a newb or something.. being a newb isnt what made pre kunark good

-

But you can't experience the feeling of something new by recreating something old.

The experience where everything was new, where danger was around the corner, where you didn't have a handy little backspace map or a spoiler site to tell you what would happen if you killed that evil alligator and retrieved the troll's arm.

we all long back for the thrill of our very first shot.

you really seem to think eq classic was good because we were new to it. thats not what were trying to bring back. were trying to bring back 'the vision' tm, get rid of awfull eqlive team content etc

why cant we relive the old days? you dont think it will be a challenge? all content been spit thru? well lvl 20 used to be a challenge and it can be again.. whens the last time you tried to take on black burrow in a group of newbs in cloth and rusty weapons?

why cant magic items be leet again?

why cant a giant snake fang be a decent lowbie piercer, or why cant a warrior gawk at a minotaur axe again

why cant walking to highhold for a sharpening stone be worth your time again?

i dont know why you cant relive the old days, but i sure can if the servers there. theres plenty of content you havent expierenced in the old world. you and probly most people who posted here never did any quests besides the newbie quest armor and their epic. maybe cb belts if they were a elf lol. play a new race and talk to your guildleader, walk through your city, talk to a random npc, complete a random quest and have the outcome be worth your time and the reward not trivialized by another dev teams content .. circle of elements changes npcs names, keywords, and even adds twists to the most popular quests so there not over done- and if a kunark came out it would have to be totaly reworked to not trivialize content like it did.

theres no point in the custom servers, original eq content is gold, you cant fuck with it, i mean, when you play WR, you dont give a shit about the lore or setting and dont really care why we all start in erudin or thurg, because its still just erudin and thurg were still playing eq, but the zone connections are fuxd.

GL on trying to make something better than pre-kunark eq...

[RexChaos]

Originally Posted by bbum

theres alot of incorrect things being said here, ill try to sort thruogh tthem.

There's one.

Nothing "incorrect" has been said. It's all a matter of opinion really. There is no right or wrong here.

Originally Posted by bbum

you really seem to think eq classic was good because we were new to it. thats not what were trying to bring back. were trying to bring back 'the vision' tm, get rid of awfull eqlive team content etc

why cant we relive the old days? you dont think it will be a challenge? all content been spit thru? well lvl 20 used to be a challenge and it can be again.. whens the last time you tried to take on black burrow in a group of newbs in cloth and rusty weapons?

why cant magic items be leet again?

why cant a giant snake fang be a decent lowbie piercer, or why cant a warrior gawk at a minotaur axe again

why cant walking to highhold for a sharpening stone be worth your time again?

Why? Because people already know where to find better stuff. And knowing that there is better stuff out there, and knowing how bad the enemy AI is, it's easy to get. Without the unknown EQ really isn't all that great a game. It's a BIG game, but it's just not great in my opinion. I think what Wiz has done is excellent. Making the game unpredictable breathes new life into what had become stale.

Originally Posted by bbum

i dont know why you cant relive the old days, theres no point in the custom servers, original eq content is gold, you cant fuck with it, i mean, when you play WR, you dont give a shit about the lore or setting and dont really care why we all start in erudin or thurg, because its still just erudin and thurg were still playing eq, but the zone connections are fuxd.

Just your opinion. I think the fact that his server has a good number of players shows that peopel ARE interested in the lore and DO like the new feel of the game.

Originally Posted by bbum

GL on trying to make something better than pre-kunark eq...

You won't need luck. It's not going to be hard.

[Wiz]

That's entirely your opinion. Once you find yourself living through the exact situations I describe in terms of advancement, and people dropping out because they have nothing to do, you might see my point.

Regardless, as far as successful and better servers go, WR currently has the highest population record of any EQemu server of all time (150, and not on loginserver list - it lies), so I don't think I'm completely uneducated on how to make a fun server.

[mwmdragon]

I was one of those oldskoolers thinking i was da shit when a GM offered me a pair of Ro boots for my pally if i did a little quest for him. Oh, and when I got my first Wurmslayer. *Sniff* I'll never forget that.

But thats why I started the NeverQuest Project. I am making Classic EQ in the Neverwinter Nights Engine. When it is done I know the playerbase will be through the roof. It plays a lot different from EQ yet still gives you the old timey feel of EQ.

Not to be plugging my project or anything.. It has been in development for over a year and has over a year to go. But this is a way I choose to Keep EQ Classic alive in my heart. And the way I want my children to experience it.

We can keep the feeling alive but we have to move on from believing that the thrill will come from old rehashed content.

Great point in this thread. It kinda made me sad because I was trying not to admit to myself the reality of never being excited about Ro Boots and a Wurm Slayer again :(

[RexChaos]

Originally Posted by mwmdragon

But thats why I started the NeverQuest Project. I am making Classic EQ in the Neverwinter Nights Engine. When it is done I know the playerbase will be through the roof. It plays a lot different from EQ yet still gives you the old timey feel of EQ.

Since NWN came out I've been playing it. I have several releases of your NQ project that I've tried out. Looking forward to the completion of it.