Please give me my country back you lying fucktards...

[militec1]

Jez-

I hosed the quote thing, hopefully you can follow it. I'll add them where appropriate.

"Have you ever had a conversation with someone from a different country regarding this topic? For instance my wife is Russian. Their point of view on all of that completely differs from what we believe to have happened. They say they were doing fine with Hitler and didn't need our help. "

Yes I have had discussions with people from other countries, including Jews who still bear the number tattoo from the concentration camps. I agree that each point of view is different and skewed towards one's bias to a point. I won't argue with your wife, she was there, I wasn't.


"We are fed what the government wants us to know, not what actually is happening or took place, history is written by the victors."

We agree 100%, and an example would be the lie that the "Civil War" was fought over slavery, when in fact it was a completely unconstitutional undertaking by those who wanted to eliminate the sovereignty of the states as voluntary members of the union and force them to belong to a monolithic nation. The history books say that it was fought over slavery, but the abolition of slavery was used as justification for Lincoln's illegal invasion of the South. But again, the victors write the history books, and here we are. Before you call me any names, ask yourselves this question: If the civil war was fought over slavery, then why was the war fought for more than two years before any mention of the emancipation proclamation was made?

Anyway, I've steered from the point, I'm back now.

"Just like all the other times the US took it upon themselves to police the rest of the world instead of fixing our own problems because we are so "righteous". We need to get our familys out of Iraq and let them deal with it on their own, if we are lucky they will all kill themselves through civil war and there won't be an Iraq anymore...problem solved. The US needs to stop sticking its nose into other countries business, I think the other countries of the world and the UN can look out for themselves, they don't need us butting in."

I sort of agree, but not completely. First, I think that the U.N. is just about the most useless, inept, and corrupt institution on earth. Second, while I don't necessarily think that the U.S. should be the world's "policeman," I do think that as members of the human race, and U.S. citizens simply by the accident of birth and the grace of God, we do have some responsibility to do what's right when it's in our power to do so. I don't remember asking not to be born in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Cambodia when Pol Pot and the Kmer Rouge came to power, I don't remember asking to be a U.S. citizen when I got my chance to live here. Neither, I am sure, did those who were the victims of Saddam, Ho Chi Min, Hitler, Stalin or any of a number of murderers.

Do I think that the occupation of Iraq is going as it should? I can't answer that complety, I don't have the information that the President has. From where I sit, and what I do know, or at least think I know, would I have handled it differently? I don't know.

I too served my country. I am a former Marine, and proud to call myself a citizen of this great nation. I originally posted this because while I have no issue with honest and open dissent, I don't think it's right to disrespect the office of the President, no matter who the current occupant is.

Holy crap, what a discussion this has turned into. I thought I was just here to play a fricking game.

[militec1]

Originally Posted by sheck

Our president (the man, not the office) got into office with less than HALF the popular vote, and almost immeadiately went to war with Iraq,

Hmm, interesting. Funny you don't mention that Bill Clinton won with only 43% of the vote in his election. See, that's part of the problem, people don't take the time to figure out how the system works. Yes, Al Gore got more of the POPULAR vote, however that is not what wins elections. George Bush won the election by having more votes in the ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

Why is that important? Because the electoral college was a stroke of genius by the Founders of this nation. You see, without the electoral college, the states would not have equal representation in the election for a president, which is the only true form of national referendum we have in this country. Without the electoral college, a presidential candidate would only have to run for re-election in the most populated states, thereby removing equal access to the process from the less populated states. For example, there are 30 odd milllion people living in California, probably close to that number in New York and Florida as well, throw in a couple more of the most populated states and VOILA! Instant win, without having to even have your name mentioned in places like Nebraska, Idaho, Iowa, or any of the majority of states. (Which, by the way, is almost exactly what happened in the 2000 election, look at a map of who won what states, and you'll see that what I'm saying is true). So, now that we've covered the electoral college, let's look at how GWB actually did. If memory serves me right, GWB won 30 out of 50 states, and 60% does qualify as a landslide.

As for your rant about going to war immediately, well let's examine the word "immediately."

\Im*me"di*ate*ly\, adv. 2. Without interval of time; without delay; promptly; instantly; at once.

George Bush took office in January of 2001. It is now 2004, and we have just, within the past week, marked the anniversary of the war in Iraq. Even if you're counting in dog years, that's a really long "immediately."

[Memener]

this dosent have anything to do with what yall are talking about. I dont want to get into it some things were good somethings are bad.


that video file didnt work for me Also I think is it good to hear peoples opinion on this topic......

EDIT: LOL sorry i just got off work (big truck today) kinda tried...


Anyway what i ment to say was any one eles having any probles with that video i click on it it loads but dosent play... at the botton (IE) there a bar that lights 4 boxes and then just sits there... lol

[Jezebell]

Originally Posted by militec1

I do think that as members of the human race, and U.S. citizens simply by the accident of birth and the grace of God, we do have some responsibility to do what's right when it's in our power to do so.

Who's to say whats right and whats wrong? You? Me? the government? society? what gives that entity that right?

How do you know what was actually happening in Iraq when Saddam was in power? Because we read it in newspapers or heard it on TV? Because our government told us? Fow all we know the majority of the Iraqi people could have been content with their life when Saddam was in power and now we have gone in there and torn the place up. Unless you lived in Iraq when Saddam was dictator how can you speak of what was going on in that country?

I have no problem with saying a president of the United States of America is a jerkoff. He is not a god to be idolized or worshipped. He is a human being and a politician (nuff said imo) and they make mistakes, they are not perfect, lets not pretend that they are.

[militec1]

Originally Posted by Jezebell

Who's to say whats right and whats wrong? You? Me? the government? society? what gives that entity that right?

Speaking as a born again, Bible believing Christian, I believe the Bible to be the basis of right and wrong, and I do believe in absolute right and wrong. That's not to say that I've always done what's right and avoided the wrong, there's plenty on my plate for me to account for, but that doesn't diminish my belief one bit.

As I read your post, I think we're closer in opinion than might be apparent. I too have problems with the government and its "ever moving" target of what is right and wrong based on what party occupies the White House, but nonetheless, while I can honestly say that I distrust my government, I do love my country, and I do have friends over in Iraq who I would like to see again.

Originally Posted by Jezebell

I have no problem with saying a president of the United States of America is a jerkoff. He is not a god to be idolized or worshipped. He is a human being and a politician (nuff said imo) and they make mistakes, they are not perfect, lets not pretend that they are.

Neither do I think that any man, or man made institution is to be idolized or worshipped, but I just see too many people who, like me, have no idea what it's like to be in GW's shoes, we don't have the information he has, we don't have the responsibilities, nor do we have the stress. I can't imagine what that job must be like, Iwould never want it. But, like it or not, the guy made a decision, he did what leaders are supposed to do, he led. I personally think he's too laid back about things, too restrained, too planned, but I respect him as a leader who has been appointed over me. As a Christian, I know that he's not there by accident, God's not sitting there saying "Oh crap, how did GW get there?" No, for some reason he's meant to be there right now, and like it or not, as my president, I owe him my respect, as far as is morally right.

Originally Posted by Jezebell

How do you know what was actually happening in Iraq when Saddam was in power? Because we read it in newspapers or heard it on TV? Because our government told us? Fow all we know the majority of the Iraqi people could have been content with their life when Saddam was in power and now we have gone in there and torn the place up. Unless you lived in Iraq when Saddam was dictator how can you speak of what was going on in that country?

As for how I know what happened in Iraq when Saddam was in power, again, while I am too old to be fighting over there, I do have friends who were and are there. They saw what the people had, and what they had to deal with, and saw what they'd been through. They saw that the media over was portraying things as worse than they were, sometimes ignoring what the thugs of the Baath party were doing. They saw what they saw, and I trust my friends way more than I would trust CNN, NBC, or any of the news media outlets.

You mentioned in one of your posts the family and friends that we have over there. They're the point, aren't they? While we're discussing this from the comfort of our homes, they're living in a sand filled hell. Yeah, the truth is that I believe that they're doing something that matters, something that will count in the big picture, and I am biased towards the belief that this life is not the only one we live. Regardless, they need our prayers and support.

Jez, we're not as far apart as our posts seem to indicate, I think we are just coming at this from two different directions. I respect your opinion about the president, I don't agree with it, and in fact I think it's wrong, but I respect the fact that you have one, and that you have the right to voice it. As do I.

[militec1]

Originally Posted by Jezebell

How do you know what was actually happening in Iraq when Saddam was in power? Because we read it in newspapers or heard it on TV? Because our government told us? Fow all we know the majority of the Iraqi people could have been content with their life when Saddam was in power and now we have gone in there and torn the place up. Unless you lived in Iraq when Saddam was dictator how can you speak of what was going on in that country?

I missed this one. I don't read newspapers, nor do I watch TV. The media has an agenda, and I have no time for "newspeak."

[Stealth_raptor]

What I meant by stealing before was how the U.S 'controls' Iraq's oil and is allowed to say who gets it. I don't see the label United State of America over where Iraq is on the atlas.

And if we WANT to go over the topic of 'whether or not George Bush is an idiot' i'm sure I can find a couple quotes here and there.


Edit: LOL..I have to add this description of George W. Bush Jr here.

"Bush is unusually incurious, abnormally unintelligent, amazingly inarticulate, fantastically uncultured, extraordinarily uneducated, and apparently quite proud of all these things."

[RexChaos]

Originally Posted by militec1

Hmm, interesting. Funny you don't mention that Bill Clinton won with only 43% of the vote in his election. See, that's part of the problem, people don't take the time to figure out how the system works. Yes, Al Gore got more of the POPULAR vote, however that is not what wins elections. George Bush won the election by having more votes in the ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

And he wouldn't have won those ELECTORAL COLLEGE votes if the Florida election hadn't have been rigged/sabotaged/fucked with. That is the point that I think Sheck was making. The election was messed with by outside people and by people who STOLE THE RIGHTS OF AMERICANS TO VOTE. Don't tell me about how something is genius and then not address the issue of how that genius system was corrupted by people in power.

Florida has 25 Electoral votes available. Bush had a total of 271 Electoral votes. Gore had a total of 266 (or 267) Electoral votes. So don't sit there and tell that the Florida scamming didn't matter...

[RexChaos]

Originally Posted by militec1

Speaking as a born again, Bible believing Christian, I believe the Bible to be the basis of right and wrong,
(EDIT)
As a Christian, I know that he's not there by accident, God's not sitting there saying "Oh crap, how did GW get there?" No, for some reason he's meant to be there right now, and like it or not, as my president, I owe him my respect, as far as is morally right.

So what you're saying is that God's Electoral votes are worth about 269 or so? Ahhh...I see. So God got Bush elected then. Oh that makes sense now. I was wondering who had more reason than any to get him elected.


God - "Well, now that you're in office, I'd like you to go kill some heathens for me."

Bush - "I'ma git me some them muslims! Should I say I'm tryin' ta help 'em?"

God - "Well of course you should. You know as well as I do that throughout history the Christians have been blamed (rightfully so) for some of the worst atrocities. So let's keep it on the DL, GW."

Bush - "Shor thing God! I'ma kill me some muslims and git me some oil! Yeehaw!"

[sheck]

Originally Posted by militec1

As a Christian, I know that he's not there by accident, God's not sitting there saying "Oh crap, how did GW get there?" No, for some reason he's meant to be there right now, and like it or not, as my president, I owe him my respect, as far as is morally right.

Right, right. I get it. God works in mysterious ways. Now, we all know God hates towelheads - BUT - God made towelheads, just like he made good Christians and just like he made G-Dub Prez. of the Uni. Sta. What's up with that? Well, everybody knows, you can't have good without evil, so every once in a while God has to let someone like Saddam come into power. Then, to show the Lord's rightousness, he appoints Saint George Winchester Bush President, and sends him out to purge Iraq of it's evil. Well, thank God someone rigged the Florida voting process - wait let me start over - Thank you, God, for rigging the Florida voting process so that we all may see your might and bask in it's glory.

Jesus > Democracy.

[eq_addict_08]

Interestint ing conversation. Militec, it looks as if you are in the minority thought here. But, I am happy to see that you still voice your opinion, and in a polite manner too.

Reading some of these posts I've seen references to a mode of thought that disturbs me. It is the thought that follows the patern "If it was willed by God/the president/whoever the leader is, it is the best" this logic is used alot. I do believe that the world unfolds in a certain way, but I also believe that we do have freedom of choice. Satan(if you are religious and believe in all that jazz) was created by God, does that mean we must accept the evils he creates on this earth? GWB thinks not as you can see from the war with Iraq. Yet him and his supporters use that logic. I hear the term "traitor" and "if you don't like it, move away" tossed at any dissenting viewpoints. I do NOT believe that the president in infalible, and believe we have the right (scratch that) the duty, to speak up against things we see as wrong. God does not want us accepting the evils of the world, they are put there to test our determination in fighting for right.

I have a fear of democracy. I am beginning to see democracy as "the mob". And US democracy as a powerfull, uneducated(by choice, since we have open access to pretty much any info we desire), rich, spoiled mob. Mobs rarey act in any rational manner. Difficult situation, cultivating a strong governing system, run by just people who realy are puting the needs of society ahead of all else. (IMO- it ain't ever gonna happen)

[Hades]

i have an idea...
the world is strange get over it... stop wasting your time.... it will never make sense... it will never be right... deal with it

[Stealth_raptor]

Hades, it's called a discussion.

[Mawlcisum]

Please leave "god" out of this. I don't bring my invisible friend to your house and say that what he says goes, and if you don't listen you can leave. Your invisible friend has no vote, nor does mine, so as far as I'm concerned neither of them have any say in the matter.

Let's rely on our own abilities a little more, and stop relying so much on being told what to do. I can only suggest that you try to think on your own. No invisible friends, no voices in your head, no talking animals, no bagels with Jesus on them telling you to murder your neighbor with an electric toothbrush.

Did you know that more people have died in the name of "god" than for any other single cause in the history of mankind? Glad I don't have that kind of blood on my hands.

[Hades]

it is a really gimp disscussion from people who dont know the facts on most of what they are talking about. i dont feel like going back through but seriously some of the stuff you guys say makes my head hurt...